women with adult children

[TheTraveler]

Misha, while you and I probably are on the same page there are people whose happiness is based on an amount of money and gifts they can get from the human relations. If they are happy let them be happy. To each his own...  happiness    Marriage of convenience is an old concept also based on love in this World: "He/she got married because of big love... love to the money" 

Agree completely.
 
I remember enduring all the insulting advices, under the false assumptions that my wife was marrying me for reasons other than love, that I 'should make sure to get a prenup'.
 
The GCG's and gold diggers (and let's not forget the men who enable them) have contributed mightily to the stigma/prejudices that are assigned to AM and RW in our marriages.  And many who happen upon this thread and read DP's contributions will have their pre-existing notions cemented even further.

[Patagonie]

The last time I muttered the word 'STFU' when speaking with Turboguy and his wife, I didn't hesitate to publicly apologize when ask. You should do the same to Donna_Pedro.

 Dear GQ i think you have misunderstood what i want to say. First i needed to go to internet because i was not knowing about stfu. And i don't use such type of word. And not in the way to prevent her to write here. Just to stop to advice, and break a story of four months  because she has high standard maintenance.
 I would tell you something : there is a couple here in France, and guess what he is earning almost 50k$/year (i make a correction : when he started to date her he was earning ...). they live in Paris, which is not the cheapest city (not the more expansive, but expansive). He has a big mortage (but it is still a bargain as the flat he had bought come from his family). And guess what ? She came from Ukraine. He is an ingeneer. Of course it had not been easy the first year, sure. She was  surprised that he hadn't any asset after the mariage (how can he do, between the costs of the courtship and mariage's costs ? With such salary and also they are young (under 30-35 i don't know exactly for him)). But now she has got a job, and things are better.
So really i think it's a mistake to manipulate someone and broke a story (you know that feelings can grow quickly) because you are not be able to assess what is real life, in this case i think it's better to stay silent. It's my opinion.

[civi68]

I replied to GQ's request directly and unfortunately had to decline. I don't want to drag posters into this situation when this woman clearly has been conflicted even before the illness about having a healthy balance between money and a relationship.
     A friend married to an FSU woman summed up my situation best even before the mother's illness with the words: "I am fully sympathetic with the struggle you are facing at this time. You meet a seemingly nice gal who probably has some interest in you, but the balance between her interest in you and her interest in getting financial support might not be a good balance.  At least the evidence at this point is not clearly indicating a good balance.  While it is true that these FSU women would probably not be interested in us if they had enough of their own money, there still MUST be a reasonable BALANCE in order for the relationship to be enjoyable and managable."
     And with these words, I move on to other topics on this forum and future options in my life.

[Kuna]

civi,

You've handled this situation well and your outlook is positive.

I wish you all the best in future.

Kuna

[jeff9556]

Jeff may you tell your court in Sweden ? Just to explain that such profile, as your, are rare ?

Can you reword that Pat, I am not sure I follow the question.

[jeff9556]

+1 Civi for the positive outlook, all the best and glad to hear you made the right decision for you. I think some of us are drifting off into side topics and slightly jacked your thread, take no notice

[Muzh]

Civi, excellent assessment by your friend. Take it and move on. She'll be fine and you'll be fine.

[Patagonie]

Can you reword that Pat, I am not sure I follow the question.

Yes Jeff.  i reword my question : may you explain, in the sweden society,  in your opinion,  what is your position in your country. You are on the 10, 5, 1  % top wages per household ? Just to give a clue to FSU women about what is the economical life in Europe or in USA. I have use the word "court" which means in my mind what is your "rank"in society's scale. It's more comfortable because people have to disclose any private informations and  more accurate than a numeral. Statiscals researches often use it.

[GQBlues]

I replied to GQ's request directly and unfortunately had to decline. I don't want to drag posters into this situation when this woman clearly has been conflicted even before the illness about having a healthy balance between money and a relationship....

Civi-


Just for clarification, as I shared with you privately, I’m glad you took my aim about the babushka matter as intended.

However I wanted to make sure my sarcasm wasn’t lost in my reply #269’s first sentence. Frankly, I was originally surprised with Gator saying you should be admired for dumping the woman quickly because her mother got diagnosed with an illness, which apparently is true, and obviously carry monetary implication. I expected much from the overall gallery, although not from a very few. Hence, and as expected, the gallery, like a herd of sheep they are, predictably didn't fail me.

I am certain this gal, much less her mother, didn’t wish for any of these to happen. I am also certain, they, or any of us, would easily trade $4,000.00, even if that’s all we had, if this would mean it’ll keep one of our own from having to go through this hellish experience. So allow me to be the lone wolf here to say my stance had nothing whatsoever to do with your relations to this woman other than to take it from a humanistic, compassionate level.

Fact is, these are people you met, so they aren’t faceless individuals to you as they are to all of us. They are folks you considered for more than a good amount of time as your potential family members. But even taking all that away for a minute, it's just simply folks who are in a pretty bad situation. She still didn’t ask you to foot the bill. From what I can gather from your story, she didn’t even tell you an estimated cost until you asked for it.

My feeling is different from all the rest. This isn’t about opportunistic women snaring monies from gullible men. This isn’t about gift-bearing men who take their wealth to lure a woman’s affection. This is just a good ol’ plain human decency. If you didn’t like the progress this relationship had taken, and what you believe to be its future direction, that’s fine. To me, the timing of it all only makes you look a bit questionable from my vantage point. So, no, no admiration coming from me.

As for your friend’s insinuation about balance, LOL, isn’t that laughable. If it was all about ‘balance’, then he, along with everyone, wouldn't be searching for a wife from impoverished regions to begin with. No?
 
 As for the newbies reading this, yes...my only suggestion to you is this, if you are not capable to distinguish the divide in this saga, give yourself a bit of soul searching before you invite another human being into your respective lives

....And with these words, I move on to other topics on this forum and future options in my life.

As always, I sincerely wish you the very best.

[Faux Pas]

I am certain this gal, much less her mother, didn’t wish for any of these to happen. I am also certain, they, or any of us, would easily trade $4,000.00, even if that’s all we had, if this would mean it’ll keep one of our own from having to go through this hellish experience. So allow me to be the lone wolf here to say my stance had nothing whatsoever to do with your relations to this woman other than to take it from a humanistic, compassionate level.

Not exactly are you the lone wolf here. I agree with you and also with Donna. Timing is everything is most situations. They (according to civi) had financial talks. The timing of the illness is unfortunate yet, it is a time civi needs to assess of whether he is all in or hits the low road. I think he made his choice. I don't see his choice as the wrong one. Maybe the right one for him. I suppose I was fortunate that my early discussions didn't take the turn his did.

I am presuming the woman is honest. If so, think of the situation she is in.

Fact is, these are people you met, so they aren’t faceless individuals to you as they are to all of us. They are folks you considered for more than a good amount of time as your potential family members. But even taking all that away for a minute, it's just simply folks who are in a pretty bad situation. She still didn’t ask you to foot the bill. From what I can gather from your story, she didn’t even tell you an estimated cost until you asked for it.

My feeling is different from all the rest. This isn’t about opportunistic women snaring monies from gullible men. This isn’t about gift-bearing men who take their wealth to lure a woman’s affection. This is just a good ol’ plain human decency. If you didn’t like the progress this relationship had taken, and what you believe to be its future direction, that’s fine. To me, the timing of it all only makes you look a bit questionable from my vantage point. So, no, no admiration coming from me.


As for your friend’s insinuation about balance, LOL, isn’t that laughable. If it was all about ‘balance’, then he, along with everyone, wouldn't be searching for a wife from impoverished regions to begin with. No?
 
 As for the newbies reading this, yes...my only suggestion to you is this, if you are not capable to distinguish the divide in this saga, give yourself a bit of soul searching before you invite another human being into your respective lives
 
As always, I sincerely wish you the very best.

I agree with you again.

Of course he has the option at anytime to cut bait and run. Even after marriage the choice is his. Take heed when entering others lives at the good or the damage you can do. The sidelines are safe for those looking to be safe

[ghost of moon goddess]

Fact is, these are people you met, so they aren’t faceless individuals to you as they are to all of us. They are folks you considered for more than a good amount of time as your potential family members. But even taking all that away for a minute, it's just simply folks who are in a pretty bad situation. She still didn’t ask you to foot the bill. From what I can gather from your story, she didn’t even tell you an estimated cost until you asked for it.

My feeling is different from all the rest. This isn’t about opportunistic women snaring monies from gullible men. This isn’t about gift-bearing men who take their wealth to lure a woman’s affection. [/font]This is just a good ol’ plain human decency. If you didn’t like the progress this relationship had taken, and what you believe to be its future direction, that’s fine. To me, the timing of it all only makes you look a bit questionable from my vantage point. So, no, no admiration coming from me.
 
As for the newbies reading this, yes...my only suggestion to you is this, if you are not capable to distinguish the divide in this saga, give yourself a bit of soul searching before you invite another human being into your respective lives

It is only with the heart that one can see rightly...

[Gator]

Gator,

Every good looking young girl in FSU gets a lot "offers" from men. Trust me, I got my share. A certain amount of them (unfortunately), are from married men, often with children, who just want some "pleasure on the side" with a young fresh body. Personally I consider those, especially with young kids at home, total scumbags.
So, you can wager all you are worth that, unlike "the daughter", I would never string along a married scumbag daddy by fueling his hopes that he could bo**k me one day, through "occasionally going out with him" and accepting expensive gifts.

You overlooked an important point.  I said "offers from worthy men."   Worthy men are unmarried men near her age from good families.  So why did you react as if I said "any men," which would of course include the scum bags you aptly described.  I was eliminating the scum bags.


Does your mind think in scandals?  There are harmless scenarios whereby a good girl would  accept gifts.  They are plausible.  Why could you not accept such even after I affirmed that the daughter has a fine character?  Were you looking for a scandal?

If my mother ever found out that I am doing something like that, she would quickly put me in my place.  And this is exactly how I'm going to raise my own daughter.

You have a daughter.  Fantastic!  I never had a daughter but am blessed with two sons who are very close.


Our foremost hopes as parents are that our children are happy and healthy.  Other than that a parent in today's world can feel fortunate if their adult child receives a good education, makes excellent marks, has many friends of good character, places a priority on family time, drives and otherwise behaves carefully, maintains her/his personal integrity, says "no" to drugs, etc.


The last sentence above describes my future daughter in law.  I hope your daughter is such a blessing and joy. 


And when others tell you what a fine person your child is, your chest will swell with pride.  And one day if someone says something nasty about your daughter, you will know how I felt when reading your post.

[Gator]

Gator, in Russia "good girls" and "bad girls" are very well aware of a Russian folk saying "кто девушку поит, тот её и танцует"   

That was a nasty thing to say. 


What I wrote about the daughter and gifts could be interpreted in different ways dependent upon one's outlook.  You chose the negative path rather than the positive one.  You continued to do so even after I affirmed that the daughter's character is good.


Ranetka showed some class by accepting my statement.  You did not.

[Gator]

And I agree with Pitbull. 

Our spat was between us and I asked you to not bring women into this. Instead, you went even harder at women.

You say little about you wife but every now and then you do make a comment.    I too could add 1/2 +  1 and get -5    as you did with my future stepdaughter.  But I don't do those things. First, I endeavor to be fair and analytical.  Second, I try to be a gentleman, although I fail sometimes


All of the above is about me.  Let's forget that and look at another point. 

To call a female member of RWD a prostitute is indeed loathsome if not malicious.  So besides agreeing with Pitbull, you should agree that you are not a gentleman, as if you cared.  BTW, a prostitute is not paid for sex but paid to leave after sex.  In this case she stayed, for 10 years, and still staying by his side.

[pitbull]

You overlooked an important point.  I said "offers from worthy men."   Worthy men are unmarried men near her age from good families.  So why did you react as if I said "any men," which would of course include the scum bags you aptly described.  I was eliminating the scum bags.


Does your mind think in scandals?  There are harmless scenarios whereby a good girl would  accept gifts.  They are plausible.  Why could you not accept such even after I affirmed that the daughter has a fine character?  Were you looking for a scandal?

Gator,

Are you kidding me? You do really want to drag this on? My post was particularly in reaction to you DIL's "realtionship" with a married scumbag daddy, which you described with enough detail in your own post in your own words. Again, I do not beleieve this is a harmless scenario. A good girl, raised with solid moral standards, would never do such. Additionally, such behaviour is plain dangerous.

I was not looking for a scandal, just expressing my disbelief that you would condone such behavior. I really thought better of you.

If my daughter does things like that when she grows up, I would consider myself a failure as a parent.


Here is the post of yours I was reacting to:

RM in RussiaBeing a remarkable beauty, she has been detected by the radar of the wealthy RM.  One RM has showered expensive gifts (fine fur coat, diamond bracelet, etc.) on her.  She accepts them and gives him nothing in return other than a smile and a spasibo.  One reason - he is married and has a young child.  He continues to pursue her, and she will occasionally go to dinner with him.  He has told her it would be only about sex, and has offered a shopping trip to Italy or Abu Dhabi, to which she says "No."   I can only imagine the attention given by RM to pretty young RW who are sexual. 

[Donna_Pedro]

 And many who happen upon this thread and read DP's contributions will have their pre-existing notions cemented even further.

Oh, they most certainly will! I remember that upon my first arrival to RWG in 2002 I had quite a few guys like "you and yours"cautioning people against my attitudes, but o boy, was my mail box always full of fun mail! So yes, please dont stop, the more fuss there is around my opinion, the more people are interested in it. And those who have eyes and will see that an approach  that shows consistent success for 10 years might not be ideal, but it is  at least worth looking into.

[Donna_Pedro]

Yes

You made a comment earlier about not telling a girl about your income.  Here is smth for you to think of. Once I was a helping a good friend of mine to communicate with an AM. Btw, she is now happily married to a very nice guy, and he is dependently wealthy too. So early in a process she wanted to ask questions about his material situation, I advised against it, but the problem remained. Finally I came up with a  good solution that quickly grew  somewhat popular and  I had quite a few requests to do the same for other women. Its not my business, just charity work. See, If I know your name, last name, city (town) and state, I can search  public records, property appraisal websites, and digging deeper I can figure out a LOT of things about you. Not your salary, though, but if I know what home you own and how much it costs, what car you drive then based on it I can make conclusions on what your income really is. Of course there might be debts etc   and it is always a risk, but... well.. you cant always get what you want. But you can get what you need. Its just a simple knowledge of where to go look for the info.  I happened to know  all these little things. And I am ready to share with those who wants to know.   

[ML]

Donna, this procedure will tell SOMETHING about the person being investigated, but  this SOMETHING probably is such a small part of the total picture that you  will get a totally wrong idea about the financial picture of the person being investigated.

Just two very small examples: As you already noted, you can find some assets, but without the corresponding (if existing) liabilities, you get a wrong picture.  And in opposite direction you will not be able to find assets held in corporate form, trust form, etc.

So this type of investigation is likely to paint a totally misleading picture (in either direction) of the persons actual situation.

[Donna_Pedro]

Donna, this procedure will tell SOMETHING about the person being investigated, but  this SOMETHING probably is such a small part of the total picture that you  will get a totally wrong idea about the financial picture of the person being investigated.

Just two very small examples: As you already noted, you can find some assets, but without the corresponding (if existing) liabilities, you get a wrong picture.  And in opposite direction you will not be able to find assets held in corporate form, trust form, etc.

So this type of investigation is likely to paint a totally misleading picture (in either direction) of the persons actual situation.

Yes, of course, liabilities are important and I never mislead people on this account. I dont  like doing all this, I prefer an open honest conversation on these matters with a guy himself but some guys avoid them and insisting is a red flag, so its better to have something than nothing .

[jeff9556]

Yes Jeff.  i reword my question : may you explain, in the sweden society,  in your opinion,  what is your position in your country. You are on the 10, 5, 1  % top wages per household ? Just to give a clue to FSU women about what is the economical life in Europe or in USA. I have use the word "court" which means in my mind what is your "rank"in society's scale. It's more comfortable because people have to disclose any private informations and  more accurate than a numeral. Statiscals researches often use it.

OK, I understand. Yes you are correct, I am in the top 5%, probably at the bottom of it though, so could be slipping into the top 10%. Its not normal to be able to have 3 months holiday and choose your own hours. Most people work standard jobs, 37 to 40 hours, get 5 to 6 weeks holidays etc.

One thing to remember is that in Sweden we pay big taxes and many things are free - health care, schooling, university etc plus subsidized dental and primary health care, 450 days maternity/paternity leave etc etc (and many many other things). Suffice to say everyone has a pretty high standard of living, so even if you are on the lowest pay scale, say 12 to 15k krona per month - if you live cheaply (cheap rent especially - we have rent controls so this does not necessarily mean crappy) you can still have a very good life, and if both parents work (which in Sweden most do, its practically ubiquitous), then household incomes provide most families with a good quality life.

[ML]

One thing to remember is that in Sweden we pay big taxes and many things are free . . .

You need to reword this as it is inconsistent with reality.  People in FSU, referring to Soviet years, often make the same mistake.

In your case; you pay big taxes and then some things come without specific additional payment at point of usage.

In the Soviet case; they received tiny wages and then some things came without specific additional payment at point of usage. Their tiny wages were, in effect, after unstated taxes (which were in addition to stated taxes.)

Nothing is ever free, nor can it be.

[Donna_Pedro]

A guy who is earning 50k $ with 50k of debt is CAN BE A CATCH. 50k of debt is absolutely NOTHING in west. Yes his income (worth, brutto ?) is not high but he has almost no debt. If you like him, if his wage is steady, if there are no reds flags and is good hearted, go to get married.

You forgot one thing - DP has spent 10 years living in the west, and even has extensive experience making  debts on her own and together with her hubby.  So please, please dont tell me that $50K salary and $50K debts is nothing in the west.  Even  in theory
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/biztech/tools/modebtratio.htm
Your debt-to-income ratio
36% or less: This is a healthy debt load to carry for most people.37%-42%: Not bad, but start paring debt now before you get in real trouble.
43%-49%: Financial difficulties are probably imminent unless you take immediate action.
50% or more: Get professional help to aggressively reduce debt.

After living here for 10 years, I can tell you that  $50K is nothing without debts and liabilities. Not for me anyway.

[GoodOlBoy]

So this type of investigation is likely to paint a totally misleading picture (in either direction) of the persons actual situation.

To elaborate even further..... Some years back GOB was informed that he was a "criminal" (erroneous background check). 
 
GOB

[ML]

To elaborate even further..... Some years back GOB was informed that he was a "criminal" (erroneous background check). 
 
GOB

Or maybe this one was the correct one that you had not been able to hide as you did in all other cases.   

[pitbull]

Donna, this procedure will tell SOMETHING about the person being investigated, but  this SOMETHING probably is such a small part of the total picture that you  will get a totally wrong idea about the financial picture of the person being investigated.

Just two very small examples: As you already noted, you can find some assets, but without the corresponding (if existing) liabilities, you get a wrong picture.  And in opposite direction you will not be able to find assets held in corporate form, trust form, etc.

So this type of investigation is likely to paint a totally misleading picture (in either direction) of the persons actual situation.

Agree with ML,
Through this type of investigation one can usually get information on a person's physical assets, such as a house and a car. One's house or car is not always an indicator of one's worth, but rather a lifestyle choice. For example, when we were dating my husband didn't own a car or a house, he was renting a small studio. Would you advice against marrying a guy like that, D_P?
From my experience, a RW doesn't need a conversation about an AM's particular financial situation to assess whether he is a good deal. Simple information about an AM's education, job, age, and whether he is divorced and pays alimony/child support is enough to have  a pretty good initial picture. For example, if the prospective AM is 50, has at most a BA in management from a crappy college, and works as a gas station manager, i would advise against this. Even if he has a BMW and a mortgage
It is necessary though vto speak in terms of exact numbers later on, at least during the K-1 process before an RW comes to the US.

And no, I would not have signed a pre-nup