Realistic Expectations

[Donna_Pedro]

Especially when the money were a main goal  Some people are stuck in their unhappy marriages knowing how much the divorce will cost and how far beyond all the limits of decency their partner can go to get a bigger piece.

Actually quite opposite.  Its people who married for "for love" and then accumulated some wealth in years, who are likely to get stuck in their unhappy marriage.
 
 

good basement for a family it must be hard to go to the bad with a person you really don't love.

you mean to bed? Unbelivable. You a big girl, and you are telling me you  still do not know the difference between love and sex??

[OlgaH]

It usually does matter. But in this case it does not, really. He was not thinking straight. If he was, he would have seen her for what she was. Unfortunately it was too late, when he finally did. As old prince Bolkonskiy used to say "поздняк метацца" "Не разженишься". 

 Pierre did divorce lecherous Ellen, should I mention he left her a lion piece of his inheritance. He paid his price for his blindness and not thinking right 

[Donna_Pedro]

 Pierre did divorce lecherous Ellen, should I mention he left her a lion piece of his inheritance. He paid his price for his blindness and not thinking right 

no he didnt. She died.

[OlgaH]

Actually quite opposite.  Its people who married for "for love" and then accumulated some wealth in years, who are likely to get stuck in their unhappy marriage.

Not from what I observed.
 
 

you mean to bed? Unbelivable. You a big girl, and you are telling me you  still do not know the difference between love and sex??

Probably not 

[OlgaH]

no he didnt. She died.

From the scene of divorce between Pierre and Ellen (Helene)

"Yes, I never loved her," said he to himself; "I knew she was a depraved woman," he repeated, "but dared not admit it to myself."

"Why did I bind myself to her? Why did I say 'Je vous aime'* to her, which was a lie, and worse than a lie? I am guilty and must endure... what? A slur on my name? A misfortune for life? Oh, that's nonsense," he thought. "The slur on my name and honor- that's all apart from myself."

Pierre: "We had better separate," he muttered in a broken voice.

Helene: "Separate? Very well, but only if you give me a fortune," said Helene. "Separate! That's a thing to frighten me with!"
A week later Pierre gave his wife full power to control all his estates in Great Russia, which formed the larger part of his property, and left for Petersburg alone.

[OlgaH]

difficulties-smifficulties. I did not come here and certainly did not bring my child here to deal with difficulties. If I wanted difficulties, I would have remained in Russia and had them for free. I wanted - if nothing else - at least a good life with a good man. Love, I repeat, is great as a cherry on top of a cake. But not the cake itself.

Understandable that you wanted better life for yourself and your child 

Difficulties come and go. Would you divorce your husband if something unfortunate happened and he would not be in a good financial situation?

[Ade]

Understandable that you wanted better life for yourself and your child 

Difficulties come and go. Would you divorce your husband if something unfortunate happened and he would not be in a good financial situation?

In almost all of DP's posts like this she seems to confuse love and infatuation. Perhaps she doesn't really know what love is, perhaps she's never experienced it and that's why she gets it mixed up with the more mindless and much less rational state of mind called infatuation. But then again, love takes some time to develop and that is something that most FSUW/WM couples have little of when they are dating.

[Turboguy]

In almost all of DP's posts like this she seems to confuse love and infatuation. Perhaps she doesn't really know what love is, perhaps she's never experienced it and that's why she gets it mixed up with the more mindless and much less rational state of mind called infatuation. But then again, love takes some time to develop and that is something that most FSUW/WM couples have little of when they are dating.

Personally I think it is common in a lot of AM-AW marriages as well.  I think a lot of the guys marry their wife because she is pretty and good in bed and a lot of AW marry their husband because they think he seems like good husband material.  I think lust and infatuation plays a bigger part than true love.
 

Especially when the money were a main goal  Some people are stuck in their unhappy marriages knowing how much the divorce will cost and how far beyond all the limits of decency their partner can go to get a bigger piece. And with all this financial good basement for a family it must be hard to go to the bed with a person you really don't love.

In real life I do think more people are stuck in a marriage who have lots of money than too little.  Many people are inherently greedy and will stay in a miserable marriage rather than give their wife some outrageous sum for being such a disappointing spouse.   Poor people just leave or drop the intimacy but remain in the same house living like brother and sister.  Of course in some of the failed wealthy marriages she does the pool boy and he does his mistress but they stay married out of greed.
 
 
 

[jeff9556]

In almost all of DP's posts like this she seems to confuse love and infatuation. Perhaps she doesn't really know what love is, perhaps she's never experienced it and that's why she gets it mixed up with the more mindless and much less rational state of mind called infatuation.

LOL, no, you give her to much credit. Something is driving this obsessive need to reaffirm her position. Not really sure who she is trying to convince.

[Donna_Pedro]

Understandable that you wanted better life for yourself and your child 

Difficulties come and go. Would you divorce your husband if something unfortunate happened and he would not be in a good financial situation?

You dont play chess, do you? Helps you to analyze situations more than 1 step ahead. Yes, there is a probability of financial difficulties, thats why I do not see the point of signing up for them upfront.

[Donna_Pedro]

 
In real life I do think more people are stuck in a marriage who have lots of money than too little. 

 I think in real life, people who have something to lose are most likely not to want to lose it. Initial love (or a lack of it) does not have anything to do with likelihood of staying married in an unhappy marriage. We have a joke in Russia - when your country wants something from you, it calls itself a “motherland".  When two people do not have anything else to offer to each other, they call it love. Sunsets on the beach are cheap.

[OlgaH]

You dont play chess, do you? Helps you to analyze situations more than 1 step ahead. Yes, there is a probability of financial difficulties, thats why I do not see the point of signing up for them upfront.

Yes, I do play chess since I was 5 and backgammon too.  But I don't gamble and I don't plan steps ahead how to get money from a relationship 

[Eduard]

In almost all of DP's posts like this she seems to confuse love and infatuation. Perhaps she doesn't really know what love is, perhaps she's never experienced it and that's why she gets it mixed up with the more mindless and much less rational state of mind called infatuation. But then again, love takes some time to develop and that is something that most FSUW/WM couples have little of when they are dating.

There are women/people who never experience certain things in life. Some women never experience love, other never have an orgasm. Several years ago I chatted with a mail order bride on ICQ. She was married to a wealthy guy from Connecticut and liked to chat with people to kill time. She was absolutely convinced that orgasm was a myth and that no women ever experience it and always fake it    I agree with Ade that our DP is confusing infatuation strictly based on initial physical attraction and pheromones with true, long lasting, deep love. Some people never get to experience it.

[Faux Pas]

In almost all of DP's posts like this she seems to confuse love and infatuation. Perhaps she doesn't really know what love is, perhaps she's never experienced it and that's why she gets it mixed up with the more mindless and much less rational state of mind called infatuation. But then again, love takes some time to develop and that is something that most FSUW/WM couples have little of when they are dating.

Pull-eeeeze. What makes you the authority on confusing love and infatuation or love in general? IMO, DP is actually taking a more realistic POV that love does not conquer all. Love alone isn't enough reason for RW to pack it up and move abroad. I would venture to guess "most" have priorities equal to or greater than love to consider.

I can see why the majority of WM might wish to remain in denial on this. It'll likely shatter their dreams of being the only priority in their wife's life. Love is a very strong emotion but, if RW waited until they were in love to join the WM there would be much less east/west relationships today.

Of course you're different, just like everyone else 

[Ade]

Pull-eeeeze. What makes you the authority on confusing love and infatuation or love in general? IMO, DP is actually taking a more realistic POV that love does not conquer all. Love alone isn't enough reason for RW to pack it up and move abroad. I would venture to guess "most" have priorities equal to or greater than love to consider.

I can see why the majority of WM might wish to remain in denial on this. It'll likely shatter their dreams of being the only priority in their wife's life. Love is a very strong emotion but, if RW waited until they were in love to join the WM there would be much less east/west relationships today.

Of course you're different, just like everyone else 

I would agree that she and you are probably absolutely right about the typical MOB/WM relationship. 

Good thing my wife and I aren't typical then.

[Eduard]

It all starts with chemistry and infatuation in the beginning. Then this initial feeling changes depending on the people involved: it either grows into a much deeper love or the feeling can entirely go away and be replaced with disillusionment, disappointment and emptiness.
Then there are times when marriage is based on pure calculation. Women are not the only ones who can be guilty of this, there are men who are just as calculating and will marry for money/status.
I don't agree with the premise that all women in East/West relationships marry for security and a better lifestyle only.
Surely security and lifestyle is one of the important factors that women look at when making a decision to marry but IMO it's not the only factor. Love/like/chemistry/good sex are just as important for them. These can evolve into deep love if people are truly compatible, respect and admire each other and off course having children together brings a couple even closer and they can form an unbreakable bond.
Reading DP's posts, seeing how cold and calculating some people are makes me a little bit sad. I'd rather be alone than in this kind of relationship.

[Gator]

Good thing my wife and I aren't typical then.

Redundant - it goes without saying that superior people are not typical.
 
 

[Gator]

Reading DP's posts, seeing how cold and calculating some people are makes me a little bit sad. I'd rather be alone than in this kind of relationship.

Have you asked DP is she and her husband are happy? 

Can we agree that you would not be happy with DP, and I imagine DP would not be happy with you. 
 
Some of this is about values.  Some of this is about left-brain and right-brain dominant thinking.  Rather than projecting one's values onto another person, and rather than applying intuitive thinking to someone who is thinking analytically, maybe we should respect our differences. 
 
Eduard, I have met you and you seem happy.  I have met DP and she also seems happy.  Even more important to me, I am happy.  Alone but happy nevertheless.
 
Something to notice about DP - she mainly talks about her own life rather than judging someone else's life.   

[Mod2]

Have monitored this lively thread the last 24 hour or so.  I was tempted to act yesterday when things got a bit too personal, but I see things seem to be improving a bit.


Lets keep the discussions going in the right direction, without personal insult.


Thanx

[Misha]

Love is a very strong emotion but, if RW waited until they were in love to join the WM there would be much less east/west relationships today.

Is this necessarily a bad thing?

[jeff9556]

Rather than projecting one's values onto another person, and rather than applying intuitive thinking to someone who is thinking analytically, maybe we should respect our differences. 

While I most certainly agree with the intent of your post, it is somewhat inaccurate.

Intuition and logic are not dichotomous. The psychological bipartite of intuition is sensing. The opposite to logic is feeling. The former describes ones dominant way of perceiving the world, the second how we make decisions.

Therefor someone can be both highly intuitive and logical at the same time. Sensing is less self explanatory - it means to trust more in what is tangible and concrete.

What we are seeing here is the inability of two opposing types to view the world similarly, because they cannot - its virtually impossible. However, understanding is not required, the simple application of the idiom "live and let live" will do just fine. Sadly I do think that is going to happen - stubbornness is a whole other ball game.

[Jumper]

  In your book he most likely will be a looser, in my book, knowing her, a beautiful woman with loving and kind heart, he is a winner 

Such stories make me want to puke. I dont buy this romantic bs. I cannot stand people  do irresponsible sht and try to present it as a romantic act made in the name of love. The first reason for divorce in this country is not promiscuity. Its money. People argue and divorce because of money. Or lack of thereof. Financial stability is not 100% of marriage, but its a good basement for a family

Your personal world view,is not everyones.
 
I do lots of irresoponcible things in my life,but DonnaP I have actually lived .I feel sorry
 for those who havnt , or played it safe, or been overly pragmatic.
 
I won't look back in my old age wondering *what if* I dint take that chance at romancve,
or that opportunity to relocate to another country and culture long term, or take that job that allowed me travel and experiences.
 
 
Anyway,to your post-
 
Pray tell me DonnaP,
All those couples who argue and fight over money,
what did they have individually BEFORE their nuptials?
 
Significantly more or less money ? or roughly the same?
 
hmm, while i agree with you most do list money as the key problem..
it just doesnt seem to be REALITY (what this whole tnread is about)
as the root cause of thier marital or relationship issues.
 
That argument always cracks me up.
People generally of average or less means ,
fighting over something they never had in the first place ,
and blaming thier relationship issues on lack of it..
 
Imagine *people* putting the blame for their relationaship problems,   on something other than themselves.
 
 
Now just imagine someone doing something so irresponcible as marrying someone they love.
and NOT relying entirely on the other person to make a financial life for them,
they are adults afterall and likely quite capable of doing so on their very own.
Believe it or not, that's taking self reponcibilty.
 
If they key reason a man, or a woman ,needs another in thier life is financial,
then thats certainly ok,it doesnt make me want to puke.
I'm all about live and let live,
if someone not being primarly driven materialistically  makes you find them irresponcible and foolish, I could relate a *little* , and so could many people,
 but why it would bother you further is beyond me?
 
They are happy, no need to feel nauseous on their behalf.
 
 I've had years that I made amazing amounts of money and years that I made 0.
( 11 months on crutches and recovery once )
 It never changed the person I was, or am, nor did it affect how good a father I was day to day.
I've intentionally taken jobs to  experience new places and things,
I've also taken  career paths making far less money, for the main reason of being able to be  at home more, and watch my child grow,you can trust my words Donna P, I will never regret doing so in either case.
 
You don't see life that way, that's ok, but to me it's a shame.
 
The single person that relocates for love ,and truly finds it,
certainly isnt foolish or irresponcible in my view.
They are blessed.
If they have the same or better than before , what did they really lose?
what did they gain?
 
They person with a child , whose life is the same ,or better finacially, and equal or better opportunity for their children, is not irresponcible.
 
When you can show where people generally  relocated west, and significantly decreased their financial standing , and the opportunities for themselves and their children you'd have something to debate about irresponcibilty.
 
But REALISTICALLY it just isn't a very common occurance,
in fact its certain that it happens far less often than a RW marrying a man in her own
 country, that  leads her to additional financial strain or suffering,so a pretty mute point overall? Women make poor decisions romantically and financially ,all the time!
 in this country or any other, so do men!
 
 
Realistic expectations include knowing and accepting that your standard of living might not be in the top 10% simply because you moved.(unless you already made that yourself)
 
It also includes family stabilty being  important to women in general and it's a *part* of the process of marriage in any country.
If that part becomes primary , or beyond *normal* stabilty,
then its  a business deal,and is not most peoples ideal of a happy marriage, though its certainly worked for couples over the centuries.
 
 
 
 

[Donna_Pedro]

LOL, no, you give her to much credit. Something is driving this obsessive need to reaffirm her position. Not really sure who she is trying to convince.

legitimate comment. Its like this. When you are buying smth you are not sure of  you read reviews first (and what is this board if not a collection of reviews). There are a bunch of opinions out there, but people tend to trust more to those  people, whose purchase of the product in question was verified (Like Amazon puts "verified" tags on reviews if a person did buy a product through their system). They might not agree with these opinions. They might even speculate about the reasons, people wrote their reviews. But it all comes down to one thing - here is a person who owns the product I am intended to buy. His opinion matters more than those of people who are just talking... So forgive me, I dont give a flying f..k about what you or other people think about my "obsessive needs". My opinion matters by default.

[Donna_Pedro]

These can evolve into deep love if people are truly compatible, respect and admire each other and off course having children together brings a couple even closer and they can form an unbreakable bond.
Reading DP's posts, seeing how cold and calculating some people are makes me a little bit sad. I'd rather be alone than in this kind of relationship.

Sorry to  ruin y'alls outlook on happiness in marriage. Usually poor Cinderellas are supposed to be married to princes and live happily ever after, while "cold and calculating" step-daughters are left with nothing.  Too much Hollywood you guys are watching, really. Anyways, love is not a guarantee of a happy marriage. Neither is calculating approach. Love can turn to hate or indifference and calculating approach can develop into love and respect. You never know. Only calculating approach gives you a little bit more material comfort. Which I prefer to secure for myself upfront, since love can not be secured.

[OlgaH]

Only calculating approach gives you a little bit more material comfort. Which I prefer to secure for myself upfront, since love can not be secured.

 

Interesting how things turn out:  calculating women call out "throw a man from his pedestal, we don't give a sh!t what he thinks" but "first we need him to give us a better and secure life"