Realistic Expectations

[Donna_Pedro]

In reality there are more lawyers that barely make $60K-$150K per year than real Mastodonts.

Sometimes the too silliest and ambitious to support their image of success get themselves in such debts. 

True. Thats why last year he declined  full rides to a couple of TX schools. There is no point of even wasting time on them, just to make $60K. Ivy league are the only law schools worth going to these days.

[OlgaH]

Donna_Pedro, what area of law he will practice? Have he determined?

[Donna_Pedro]

Donna_Pedro, what area of law he will practice? Have he determined?

 
He is only starting this year, so he does not know.

[GoodOlBoy]

Theres always a little room for some improvements 

GOB, (with the help of his beautiful RW) has read many posts on RW forums about "controlling" AM.
 
Some of these posts are very sad and I truly feel very sorry for these Russian ladies.
 
IMHO, an AM who brings a lady over from the FSU and tells her what to wear, how to behave, etc. etc. is not a real man.
 
The same goes when the pointed shoe is on the other foot.
 
It is a shame when couples cannot celebrate their differences and live in a harmonious relationship (where somebody isn't always trying to change or control the other person). 
 
GOB
 
FWIW.....Real men have already been raised by a Mother and Father and know how to behave themselves. 
 

[OlgaH]

Donna_Pedro,

Ivy league will be definitely helpful to him to open the first doors but his success, of course, will depend only on him. After the first open doors the law firm will evaluate him by what he will be bringing to their table.

Again, wish you son success.

(I bet he has shark teeth, the grip of a bulldog and more important foxy mind if he has chosen this profession)! 

[GoodOlBoy]

  I want to live in a society where women have thrown men off the pedestal.

I am sure that you would never put your son on a pedestal.... right D_P? 
 
Funny thing.
You left a "society" where a man (male child) is placed on the pedestal by Mom and Babushka.
 
I know what I am talking about here.
GOB has witnessed this same behavior over and over again here in SIB.
 
Mom and Babushka fawn over a male child like he is the second coming of JC himself! 
It is actually quite nauseating to watch.
My wife actually rolls her eyes when she sees it going on.
 
If the couple happens to have a daughter also, I truly feel sorry for the poor child.
 
GOB

[Ade]

GOB, (with the help of his beautiful RW) has read many posts on RW forums about "controlling" AM.
 
Some of these posts are very sad and I truly feel very sorry for these Russian ladies.
 
IMHO, an AM who brings a lady over from the FSU and tells her what to wear, how to behave, etc. etc. is not a real man.
 
The same goes when the pointed shoe is on the other foot.
 
It is a shame when couples cannot celebrate their differences and live in a harmonious relationship (where somebody isn't always trying to change or control the other person). 
 
GOB
 
FWIW.....Real men have already been raised by a Mother and Father and know how to behave themselves. 

Dude, your posts are pretty good these days.

This is from a from a guy that gave up on Geneva made watches some time ago as pointless fripperies.  Damn, I'm so glad I didn't marry a "princess".

[chivo]

Interesting thought to explore..  Is it possible that men are more amenable to marrying a woman with kids than the other way around?

Not RM that's for sure.
 
 

This does not actually answer WHY RW often feel there are so few good RM.
Neither does Mafia wars..

It's a macho society,and culture, chivo alluded to the dealbut dinrt expound..
you are both in in a position to enlighten readers,, lets enlighten them
,not blame mafia and drinking ,when the root cause of that is something else entirely.

They are raised by russian mothers..why arent there enough good family RM?



But I'd like someone to define why.(in the FSU)
its an age old question on the boards that noones made a good answer to.

The surface things like smoking ,drinking,hard life, or shorter life expectancy arent
that valid in the mid thirties/ fourties *family man* demographic

Whats the root cause for the shortage and resultant competition..?

*shrugs*

Well as I reread my post I forgot to add another BIG reason (besides the aforementioned) why you have such an unbalanced situation in Russia. I imagine it's not much different in Ukraine as well - and it's directly correlated to this...
 

Funny thing.
You left a "society" where a man (male child) is placed on the pedestal by Mom and Babushka.

I know what I am talking about here.
GOB has witnessed this same behavior over and over again here in SIB.

Mom and Babushka fawn over a male child like he is the second coming of JC himself! 
It is actually quite nauseating to watch.
My wife actually rolls her eyes when she sees it going on.

I have also been witness to this time and again and couldn't agree more. To me it goes way beyond what is or should be normal Mother/Son relations. And I do think it contributes mightily to the Male/Female interactions in Russia. If I had a ruble for every time I've heard from marriage-minded RW that the young men ages 25-40 are NOT serious, run at the first sign of trouble in the relationship, are always looking for their next g/f trade up, treat them (the RW) like disposable commodities, are just plain lazy and irresponsible, etc. I would, well, have about 100 rubles  . But you can at least see a trend and that trend is manifested by this abnormal overmothering.
 
It also explains other things that are different in Russia as opposed to the USA with regards to age gaps, a higher proportion of attractive RW dating less attractive men, RM having a higher degree of mistresses, the thinking by many RM that RW over the age of 30 are old  , etc.
 
It is also why Ed's OP needs to be strongly considered especially when it comes to age gaps because while I can consistently date RW 20-25 younger than me without a problem, to the point where they want to marry HERE, it would not be the same for me if I am sitting alone in my house in America trying to forge a relationship long distance and contemplating bringing a sweet young thing to my country.
 
There are many reasons for this, but basically it comes down to the competition and the ability to date normally. And the fact that I don't think they're someone who is supposed to cater to me like Mom and Babushka.
 

[chivo]

True. Thats why last year he declined  full rides to a couple of TX schools. There is no point of even wasting time on them, just to make $60K. Ivy league are the only law schools worth going to these days.

You know I read your posts about education in Russia compared to America on another tread and there were things you posted I certainly would disagree with. One is the quantity of quality schools here as opposed to Russia. Since that thread has been dormant for some time I thought I would comment about this point here even at the risk of being somewhat off-topic.
 
First I can name two Universities in the Bay Area (that would be San Fransisco-Oakland) that are right there with the Ivy league and that would be Stanford (often called Harvard West) and UC Berkeley.
 
As for Texas well all I can say is that the couple of schools that offered your son a full ride couldn't have included the University of Texas at Austin which is easily one of the best Law Schools in the country. If UT was one of them then you were foolish to pass on that offer.
 
I can add the University of Chicago, NYU, Michigan at Ann Arbor, UCLA AND USC in Los Angeles, Duke, Northwestern, Virginia, Georgetown, Vanderbilt (often referred to as Harvard South), and George Washington University as being on par with Ivy League schools.
 
I do agree that schools like Harvard, Columbia, Yale, Penn and Cornell offer top flight programs, but I can assure that graduating at the top of your class at any of the other schools would put you at the same level of earning potential.

[TheTraveler]

 Patrek can not come alone. It requires Bently, Vertu, row bespoke etc.  So I will wait until my child becomes a rich attoney. He is my only hope for my husband's Patek&co.

When future rich attorney sonny boy makes it rain with bling, don't forget to have him outfit your new bentley with some curb feelers !

[Donna_Pedro]

You left a "society" where a man (male child) is placed on the pedestal by Mom and Babushka.

This is only partially true. Besides mom and babsushka there are objective reasons. Mentality is defined by reality. Not another way around. Moms and babushkas only reflect on reality. And reality is - there is simply not enough men in my country. Thats why they are put on a pedestal by women. They dont do it because they want to. Its a objective necessity. And yes, my child would be very spoiled in this regard had he stayed in Russia.

[Donna_Pedro]

As for Texas well all I can say is that the couple of schools that offered your son a full ride couldn't have included the University of Texas at Austin which is easily one of the best Law Schools in the country. If UT was one of them then you were foolish to pass on that offer.

 
You are right. In regards to Law schools it is wiser to go by school ratings. T14, or the top 14 schools are considered the best  and UT is one of them. So are Berkly, NYU, Columbia, UPenn, Duke, Michigan etc.
As far as higher education goes.. I have recently witnessed my son go through his undergraduate. The amount of efforts he applied was not proportional to the grades he received.  Of course, he had graduated from a business school, which is easy by definition, but in his opinion it was "a joke".
 

[Donna_Pedro]

I do agree that schools like Harvard, Columbia, Yale, Penn and Cornell offer top flight programs, but I can assure that graduating at the top of your class at any of the other schools would put you at the same level of earning potential.

Exactly! In low rating schools you need to be in top 5% of your class to be offered Big Law (which puts you on a high level of earning potential), while in Harvard you just need to be in the first 50%. So the amount of effort is different.

[Donna_Pedro]

 It is a shame when couples cannot celebrate their differences and live in a harmonious relationship (where somebody isn't always trying to change or control the other person). 

Its a shame you can not impose your definition of harmonious relationship on us all. And we still somehow manage to be happy and stay married in spite of our "insufficiencies". But we do. If it is any consolation, the shoe  is on the other foot quite a bit too.

[Donna_Pedro]

 
They are raised by russian mothers..why arent there enough good family RM?

Let me repeat - there are not enough men. Period. Not just good ones. Its a well known fact that bad economy affects men harder than women. Culturally men in Russia drink a lot.  1990s added mafia wars to the overall abysmal picture. Not to mention - and its also a fact - that Russia has not leveled its men\women ratio since  big loss of men's population during WW2.  Yes, men (as boys) are raised by women. But women's approach to upbringing is dictated by reality. Mentality depends on reality. This, btw, explains why women are dotting on boys, not on girls.

[Misha]

Here is a good article.
http://www.chron.com/business/article/Salary-reality-Many-lawyers-don-t-earn-big-bucks-1841042.php Though it is written in 2007 but it is timely nowadays.

An interesting article. The other thing to keep in mind is that lawyers can also be laid off even if they earn the big bucks: http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/16/unemployed-and-struggling-lawyers-seek-solace/

[Gator]

 I have observed firsthand the "abnormal overmothering" of sons mentioned by Chivo and GOB.  Besides affecting the men, it affects the women.  To complete the psychologic equation, the FSU society objectifies women more than here in the US.  It seems to me that the intellectual qualities of young women are downplayed and their physical qualities stressed.   
 
This has to get into the head of dyevushkas.  Those of us who venture to the FSU enjoy the eye candy of how RW go to much effort to display their physical attributes and sexiness.  Fine, except there is more.  I am not a psychologist, but does this not prompt superficial thinking (such as conspicuous consumption)? 
 
Fortunately, everyone is different.  Just as there are many, many RM who survive their upbringing and become good husbands, fathers, etc., one can also find many enlightened (and pretty) RW.  For whatever reason, I am more relaxed around women who are comfortable even if their nails have not been French polished.

[Gator]

Let me repeat - there are not enough men. Period. Not just good ones. Its a well known fact that bad economy affects men harder than women. Culturally men in Russia drink a lot.  1990s added mafia wars to the overall abysmal picture. Not to mention - and its also a fact - that Russia has not leveled its men\women ratio since  big loss of men's population during WW2. 

I have heard this from many sources, including the OP Eduard, yet population statistics suggest near parity in numbers for Russians under 50yo.  Rather than the sheer number of men, is it not the number of good men (work at a good job, moderate drinkers, don't gamble, and are faithful to wives)?
 

Yes, men (as boys) are raised by women. But women's approach to upbringing is dictated by reality. Mentality depends on reality. This, btw, explains why women are dotting on boys, not on girls.

Donna, what if you had a daughter rather than a son?  Or had a daughter too?
 
I can understand special attention given to males in a male dominated society where males will be the breadwinner.  Yet, females need attention and love too.  And things are changing.
 
 

[ML]

I can add the University of Chicago, NYU, Michigan at Ann Arbor, UCLA AND USC in Los Angeles, Duke, Northwestern, Virginia, Georgetown, Vanderbilt (often referred to as Harvard South), and George Washington University as being on par with Ivy League schools.

I agree with all in your list except George Washington University.  At first, I thought you had just confused it with Georgetown, but I see you have Georgetown on your list also.

[ML]

  Of course, he had graduated from a business school, which is easy by definition, but in his opinion it was "a joke".

Sorry Donna, but you are way off base here regarding business school being easy by definition.

You are right that there are some easy business schools.  The reason is  that so many people want business degrees that practically every College and University in the nation has started business schools because it is a 'cash cow' for the liberal arts.  There simply aren't enough qualified professors to staff all these schools and not enough good students in the seats.

However, there are a ton of very good and rigorous business schools in the USA, Canada, UK and Australia, and a handful in some other Western European countries.  A few are also in Hong Kong and Singapore.

In the USA, the top business schools are mostly in the same listing noted previously by Chivo for Universities having top law schools.

And UT Austin has one of the best.

There are far too many mediocre law schools, just as there are far too many such business schools.

But no one should kid themselves about the rigor at a top business school.  It can make a Mensa member cry.

And for average earnings power, no law degree or medical degree can top the potential for a finance major on wall street.

[OlgaH]

For whatever reason, I am more relaxed around women who are comfortable even if their nails have not been French polished.

Oh, Gator, does it mean we have a meaning for relationship? 

[Donna_Pedro]

Sorry Donna, but you are way off base here regarding business school being easy by definition.

You can not compare  a business school degree with, say, degree in physics, engineering etc, regardless of status or quality of a school. I have graduated from a business school (in russia) myself, and it was not hard at all. Actually I worked full time while going to school, got married, had a baby. My son has graduated from a regular state school in FL. Its no Harvard, of course, but it is not a small local college either. When I am trying to praise him for good grades and a lot of achievements, he almost gets angry, saying that the school was a "joke", and never a challenge. My own experience agrees with his.

[Donna_Pedro]

I have heard this from many sources, including the OP Eduard, yet population statistics suggest near parity in numbers for Russians under 50yo.  Rather than the sheer number of men, is it not the number of good men (work at a good job, moderate drinkers, don't gamble, and are faithful to wives)?
 

 
See here - The causes for  sharp increase in mortality are widely debated, with some academics citing alcohol abuse as the main culprit, and others citing the drastic and widely negative changes in lifestyle caused by economic reforms that followed the dissolution of the Soviet Union. According to a 2009 report by The Lancet, a British medical journal, mass privatization, an element of the economic-reform package nicknamed shock therapy, clearly correlates with higher mortality rates. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Russia
 
Obviousely all of the above affects men to a higher degree. Its starts with  0.92 male(s)/female
ratio at age 15 and comes to 0.46 at age 65.
 
Most of the demographic disasters that have beset Russia in the twentieth century have affected primarily males. In 1992 the sex ratio was 884 males per 1,000 females; in the years between 1994 and 2005, the imbalance is projected to increase slightly to a ratio of 875 males per 1,000 females (see table 7, Appendix). Gender disparity has increased because of a sharp drop in life expectancy for Russian males, from sixty-five years in 1987 to fifty-seven in 1994. (Life expectancy for females reached a peak of 74.5 years in 1989, then dropped to 71.1 by 1994.) Projected changes in life expectancy are negative for both sexes, however. Mortality figures that the Ministry of Labor released in mid-1995 showed that if the current conditions persist, nearly 50 percent of today's Russian youth will not reach the retirement ages of fifty-five for women and sixty for men.
 
http://countrystudies.us/russia/29.htm
 
 

[BC]

Donna,

Statistics on gender number disparity has been echoed as long as I have participated in RW related fora.

In the age group of interest here, 20-40 I have not seen any statistics that show great disparity of men to women.

In my opinion economic and social factors play a much greater role in creating artificial disparity in the 20-40 age group...

First, many in their early 20's are probably not really ready to get married - as it should be - just playing around.  Second the economic state in FSU give young persons up to 30 little chances of true, gainful and steady employment.  This is not much different than in many other countries in the world.  Careers start to be built somewhere around 30, and finally, social support, drug and alcohol abuse do start in these early years - with economic conditions exacerbating the problem.

IIRC the average age of a WM seeking a long term relationship with a FSUW is somewhere around 40...  which of course entices the interest of FSUW in the lower age brackets..

As far as mortality goes, in the sense of the overall picture, life expectancy is a 'hump' that is achieved when underlying economic factors provide services and quality of life that can support 10, 15, or 20 or more years unproductive retirement and increasing life expectancy.  Remember that the problem in many western countries is that the cost of maintaining older citizens is staggeringly high.  Cost of end of life care is a huge chunk of the healthcare budget with the normal process dying ending up being the most costly.

At this point in time, longevity might not be in the long term interests of countries that are already feeling the cost of maintaining their elderly citizens.

In the US, the concept of social security was to help cover the costs of the 50%  that managed to live past their normal life expectancy... the exception rather than the rule..  Remember at the time social security was instituted, life expectancy in the USA was not that different than those you stated for RU... with basically 50% living beyond 65 or so....

Maybe the western ways of achieving longevity and long retirement has simply become too demanding on the economy.

[Muzh]

 
Do you not find it odd that the people who constantly preach about marital bliss and happiness come from people who failed in their own relationships? Like you..
 
That's like Obama preaching about Hope and Change, yeah?

Indeed. Nothing like perfection. Must be that California water.

Are you stating that a person who is divorced cannot experience marital bliss? Because if that is your realty, I feel sorry for you.

I'm assuming this is your first marriage. And if so, I feel sorry for you because you have to be under such pressure not t screw up and lose your "bliss."

Me? Boy, have you ever heard of live and learn? I'm very proud to proclaim that I admitted my own errors and learned from them. So, no. I don't find it odd at all.

Let me know if I have to dumb it down for you to understand.