Newt or Mitt VS Obama. Can either of 'em beat him?

[BC]

Obama's Simpson-Bowles commission reported its findings while the Democrats still had control of Congress.   He could have done something.  Instead Obama and Democrats recognized they would lose some popularity by cutting entitlement programs, so they hid their heads in the sand (but did ask for more taxes on the rich).

This was discussed in  yesterday's Washington Post (a liberal rag)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/the-race-snubbed-obama-deficit-panel-proposals-are-getting-new-attention-_-from-both-sides/2012/06/20/gJQAKJjUqV_story.html
 
Obama can only blame himself.   American government is about compromise to keep our nation working together.  Our Civil War happened when the opposing parties could not compromise.   

Gator,

There are many ways of looking at the same thing.  Here's a similar article from a couple months ago.

Bottom line is that Republicans have vowed to eradicate Obamacare and not to allow any taxes to be raised, even if a 'raise' is in the form of closing loopholes.  Democrats have vowed to support lower taxes, but close the loopholes and keep healthcare reform going.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/wonkbook-house-reaches-bipartisan-deal-to-reject-simpson-bowles/2012/03/29/gIQAfucdiS_blog.html

But Wednesday's vote — which considered a version of SImpson-Bowles with somewhat less in tax increases -- is at least suggestive evidence that the White House was right and the proposal would never have passed because, in the end, the problem with Simpson-Bowles wasn't that the president didn't say enough nice things about it, but that members of Congress didn't want to vote for it.

http://www.fiscalcommission.gov/sites/fiscalcommission.gov/files/documents/TheMomentofTruth12_1_2010.pdf

It's all here and I can't say I find much if anything to disagree with, but it seems there are a few on both sides of the aisle that only 'want' but are not willing to 'give'.

As it stands, I agree with the author of one of the recent blogs.. can't remember which that it is an 'ongoing game of political chicken.'.. hard work and compromise are no longer part of the legislative branch of government.

[2tallbill]

hard work and compromise are no longer part of the legislative branch of government.

How do you compromise raising taxes vs lowering taxes?
How do you compromise lowering spending vs raising spending?
How do you compromise creating a new trillion dollar spending program
like health care and eliminating it?
How do you compromise requiring voters to show IDs to vote with allowing
anyone to vote without any ID?
How do you compromise reforming spending now with kicking the can down
the road until your term is up?


Sometimes one side must prevail and the other can not.

[BC]

How do you compromise raising taxes vs lowering taxes?
How do you compromise lowering spending vs raising spending?
How do you compromise creating a new trillion dollar spending program
like health care and eliminating it?
How do you compromise requiring voters to show IDs to vote with allowing
anyone to vote without any ID?
How do you compromise reforming spending now with kicking the can down
the road until your term is up?


Sometimes one side must prevail and the other can not.

Easy,

You get some people together in a bipartisan manner and start working on it..

You end up with something like this  http://www.fiscalcommission.gov/sites/fiscalcommission.gov/files/documents/TheMomentofTruth12_1_2010.pdf

Lets just face it folks, Congress is not looking for good ideas but instead stumble on party lines and get nowhere in the end.

[calmissile]

Quotes from The Natural

Yes, I remember also all the "hope" and worship of Obama. Even saw a car here with an Obama bumper sticker and he was compared to Kennedy, even Jesus.

I have not seen an Obama bumper sticker for many months.  This in itself sends a message.  LOL

Historian and political commentator Webster Tarpley say that the powers that be, like with the recent Bilderberg meeting in Virginia, want to replace Obama with Romney. There's the reason for the anti-obama stuff in the media now, that wasn't allowed before.

Not sure what you mean by not allowed before.  The mainstream liberal press has always protected the liberal politicians.  It has nothing to do with being 'allowed' to print the truth.  If it were not for Fox news, the public would have no inkling as to what is truly the other side of the picture.  Clearly they are as biased as the mainstream media, just on the opposide side of the aisle.  At least there is one source to get the other side of the picture.

Obama's most recent screw ups by circumventing congress and effectively 'making law',  and by granting executive priviledge to the documents that congress is requesting has caused the liberals to question his veracity.  Congress has a duty and responsibilty to oversee the administrative branch and the year and a half stonewalling by Attorney General Holder and Obama does not  improve his image much in the eyes of the people.

[calmissile]

Easy,

You get some people together in a bipartisan manner and start working on it..

You end up with something like this  http://www.fiscalcommission.gov/sites/fiscalcommission.gov/files/documents/TheMomentofTruth12_1_2010.pdf

Lets just face it folks, Congress is not looking for good ideas but instead stumble on party lines and get nowhere in the end.

BC, I don't think you are seeing the picture as we Americans see it.
There is a reason that the legislature is divided among party lines and it has to do with the fundamental differences expressed by the citizens.  Among these differences are:
1.  Socialism vs. unbridled Capitalism   (without any regulation)
2.  Religious 'right' forcing religious views on the population vs.  Individual Freedom to make their own choices (abortion,, etc).
3.  Individual liberty vs.  Government Control of our personal lives.
4.  The Welfare State vs. Individual Responsibility.

It is unfortunate that the citizens are so locked up on one extreme or the other, but that is what we have.   We have been so used to the welfare state for so long, that a couple of generations expect it as an entitlement.  Weening ourselves off the welfare state will not be an easy task.  When the takers outnumber the givers, it is said to be a point of no return.

From the 40's to the 60's we had a fairly balanced system that worked pretty well.  We had the antitrust laws that prevented large businesses from becoming monopolies and we had a relatively small welfare system.  With the weakening laws on business, they went wild with mergers, acquisitions, etc. and many small businesses were devoured up and went out of business.    All this was done in the name of living in a 'Global Economy' and Capitalism (without regulation) is great!  The results are pretty clear.  It was also during this time that we used tarriffs (a principle approved by our founding fathers) to protect American Industry.  As our politicians were bought off by foreign and domestic business interests, this is no longer an effective tool.

Also, during this period we had a balance between labor and business.   Unfortunately, the Unions were run by thugs and eventually lost their public support.  At the same time Public Service Unions sprung up and their demands were met by politicians that had nothing to loose.  Give them whatever they want to get their votes, and it is the public that will foot the bill!  At one time, public servants were not allowed to form unions.  It was generally accepted by the citizens that public servants could not hold the public hostage to union demands.  That was a major change that has now come back to haunt us.  The benefits and salaries of public servants (unions) are now so large they are not sustainable by the taxpayer.  I seriously doubt that many Americans would like to see the days of the coal miners and others that endured outrageous working conditions.

My observation is that business will hire workers as cheap as possible to get the job done, and workers will try and bargain for the highest wages and benefits they can.  The problem is that an individual has no power to negotiate on his own (with a few exceptions).  That is the reason collective bargaining was formed.  It is unfortunate that the leadership of unions did such a shitty job of representing their workers.  Fighting for the moon, when a company can only afford a smaller increase created much of the problem.  Those companies that included profit sharing no doubt had the right idea.

So much for my soap box!  LOL

We have a long way to go to solve our problems and form a consensus among our citizens.  Right now the Congress is just a reflection on the two opposing philosophies about which direction we want the government to go.  Individual Liberty vs More Government Control over our personal lives.

[2tallbill]

Easy,

You get some people together in a bipartisan manner and start working on it..

You end up with something like this  http://www.fiscalcommission.gov/sites/fiscalcommission.gov/files/documents/TheMomentofTruth12_1_2010.pdf

Lets just face it folks, Congress is not looking for good ideas but instead stumble on party lines and get nowhere in the end.

The senate has bottled up any chance of reform


The house came up with a program that had many similarities to the fiscal
commission report. Including spending reform, tax reform, social security and
medicare reform. These reforms are very similar to the reforms listed in the
fiscal commission report.
 
http://roadmap.republicans.budget.house.gov/


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Path_to_Prosperity


It would require a change in the Senate and President for the plan to be passed.
Romney has endorsed The Path to Prosperity  and Obama is definitely against
the plan along with the Senate Democrats.


If the Republicans win control of the senate and Romney were to be elected a plan
like the Path to Prosperity or the fiscal commission plan could be passed.


BC, if you and I were in charge we would take the two plans and hammer out a
compromise of some sort.

[BC]

BC, if you and I were in charge we would take the two plans and hammer out a
compromise of some sort.

Yes, I believe such would be possible.

But what do you think is the fundamental problem as to why two common men can, but 535 elected men and women cannot?

[Gator]

But what do you think is the fundamental problem as to why two common men can, but 535 elected men and women cannot?

Congress can easily agree to general concepts.  The devil is in the details.   That is where compromises must be made.   The amazing part of the Simpson-Bowles commission is that it included a number of fiscal conservatives and liberalsprogressives, and most approved the details of the commission's plan.
 
Partisan politics has always been part of Congress.  That is why compromise is absolutely necessary.   Compromise starts at the top.  In Obama's first year, he did not compromise.  He did not reach across the aisle.  Please study his initiatives in his first year.   Much was crammed down the throat of the Republican minority.
 
I assert that such intractability breeds just as adamant and opposite reaction.   The PEOPLE voted in 2010 and returned the House to the Republicans, electing many Congressmen who campaigned and pledged never to raise taxes.  After that, it was too late for Obama to change his colors.  As the Cossack woman  tells me, "You are what you make."
 
Regardless of who wins in November, something will be done soon after the election because of the rapidly approaching "fiscal cliff."

[calmissile]

Yes, I believe such would be possible.

But what do you think is the fundamental problem as to why two common men can, but 535 elected men and women cannot?

It's really pretty simple to explain.  There are two paths to take....... more socialism vs. more freedom for the individual including business.  Compromise is what has got us into the present state of our culture.  Many feel that it is a declining culture and economic path that is not good for our culture and our nation.  The division has not been more dramatic than it is currently.  Clearly, our electorate has to make a choice one way or the other.  Compromise is just going to result in the same crap that has gone on for the last 40 years.  That picture is not pretty when you expand it out to the future.

Regardless of what the outcome is, one way or the other will result in more stability and a sense of what the future holds for America.  No doubt our founding fathers are rolling over in their graves to see what America has become since they wrote the constitution.

Here is a quote worth sharing...

This quote was translated into English from an article appearing in the Czech Republic as published in the Prager Zeitung of 28 April 2011.

 "The danger to America is not Barack Obama but a citizenry capable of entrusting an inexperienced man like him with the presidency.  It will be far easier to limit and undo the follies of an Obama presidency than to restore the necessary common sense and good judgment to a depraved electorate willing to have such a man for their president.  The problem is much deeper and far more serious than Mr. Obama, who is a mere symptom of what ails America.  Blaming the prince of the fools should not blind anyone to the vast confederacy of fools that made him their prince.  The Republic can survive a Barack Obama.  It is less likely to survive a multitude of Idiots such as those who made him their president."



We are really at the tipping point in America.  Today Moody has downgraded several US banks.  Some say we are on the cliff of financial colapse.  We have no leader that is credible.  The American people do not have a clue what the solution should be.  We vote by who is the most handsome, or who is our ethnic choice, or who has the best sound bites on television.  It is embarrassing to admit that the electorate is so illiterate to history and fundamental economics.  It seems that our choice is to see what happens and then decide whether to immigrate to a better place (if there is one).

 

 

 

[Gator]

Calmissile gives an example of those who will not compromise.    Many in Congress on both sides of the aisle have such a mindset.   They were elected on such a platform.  Yes, some issues are black and white, but so much is gray.
 
We can only hope for good will.
 
BTW, a dictator never compromises.

[ML]

It seems that our choice is to see what happens and then decide whether to immigrate to a better place (if there is one).

There isn't.

Take the old saying:  'The justice system in USA is terribly flawed, but it is the best in the world.'

The same idea can be applied to our political system and life in general.

[Faux Pas]

Not sure what you mean by not allowed before.  The mainstream liberal press has always protected the liberal politicians.  It has nothing to do with being 'allowed' to print the truth.  If it were not for Fox news, the public would have no inkling as to what is truly the other side of the picture.  Clearly they are as biased as the mainstream media, just on the opposide side of the aisle.  At least there is one source to get the other side of the picture.

Be careful, your mind and ability to think independently can be polluted by both sides of the media biases. Just because one particular source or channel favors your opinions more than the other doesn't mean all that channel spews is unbiased or unvarnished. It may sound out in the left field of paranoia but, I'll say it anyway. Don't allow any news source or stream to do your thinking for you. Many people do. In the area of news media, they love the idea of mind control. Don't think they wouldn't. To elaborate further, they would love nothing more than for you to believe everything they tell you. 

[Gator]

Be careful, your mind and ability to think independently can be polluted by both sides of the media biases. Just because one particular source or channel favors your opinions more than the other doesn't mean all that channel spews is unbiased or unvarnished. It may sound out in the left field of paranoia but, I'll say it anyway. Don't allow any news source or stream to do your thinking for you. Many people do.   

 
Excellent!   +1   Just like the different channelsmembers at RWD.

 
 

In the area of news media, they love the idea of mind control. Don't think
they wouldn't. To elaborate further, they would love nothing more than for you
to believe everything they tell you.

Just like some members at RWD and their opinions about what is best for you, what is wrong with you, etc.

[BC]

Having been an observer of politics and what seems to have succeeded and what not, I submit several observations:

One of the governments that has had very difficult challenges but in the long run has at least done well (aside from the current EU situation) is Germany.

I have seen their election campaigns and it is nothing near that of the US in terms of what it costs to get into office and what favors are traded to do so.  Two Billion dollars for two candidates to compete for post of President?  Unheard of in EU, even if you combined elections in all countries..  Nowhere near that amount.

It is what those in the US would call a socialist government and yes taxes are high, but as far as economic stability, deficits, etc etc they have done well.

Politics in italy, well a complete disaster.  They cannot even handle EU funds given to them in a proper manner and usually end up giving it back as implementation cannot be achieved.  It is corrupt, same as in Greece and Spain.  One might think that the PIIGS countries are very bad off, but aside from Ireland I believe the 'black' economy by far overshadows the 'official' economy.

Germany to a great but not 100% extent has worked decades long to fight against corruption and 'black economy'.. they have been quite successful.

In Italy, Spain, Greece, Portugal corruption and the black economy is what drives life..  I see it all the time.  If I go to the store and buy a hundred bucks worth of meat I'll regularly be asked if it's ok to get a receipt for 50....  very very common and something that does not happen in the US or Germany.  I feel comfortable in stating that GDP of these countries is undervalued by at least 25%.  In the overall scope of things that is quite a lot.

I also see that for big ticket items such as healthcare that the US pays double or more what other countries do with absolutely no benefit whatsoever.. and households across Europe are filled with prescription medicines paid for by the government.  Even still cost to the government is half or a quarter of what healthcare costs in the US.  That's why US folks buy medicine online from Canada and such... or if uninsured go to other countries for elective, non critical care.

Also consider household debt... I think the highest household debt is in the US.  The entire US economy is driven by debt.. and that is very different from what I see here.  Household debt and things like student loans adds many trillions to the US debt.  Sure, some will be paid back, but in the current economic situation not all.  Education, like healthcare here is basically free, supported by taxes, same as in Germany.  Germany has a very good system of educating electricians, plumbers, construction workers, engineers etc...  A trillion dollars in student loans should give pause for reflection and thought as to why it works elsewhere and not in the US.....

The other factor I see is that with all the advantages of the internet and media it simply does not let a system come to a point near equilibrium...  stock market trades are performed in milliseconds.. good or bad information distributed in the same amount of time that creates even a discerning audience difficulty with forming an independent opinion.  Who should I believe.. Fox or the others?  Even on news.google.com I can find an article blaming Obama or Congress, on the same page for the same issue at hand. IMHO media is just as much to blame as the politicians.

Here in the south of Italy, most own their houses outright, maybe even have a small plot of land to grow their veggies and a couple of chickens.  I could care less if the Greece opts out of the EU or not, my family will have a roof over their head and food on the table, even good healthy food.  We have over 40.000 square feet we can plant and are not alone with little or no debt. Folks here are built to survive as they have done for centuries.  Same in Greece and Spain.  I have a platinum amex card, visa, mastercard etc that is paid off every month, no interest and live well within our means even when filling the tank of our car costs 140 bucks....  Just like everyone else around hers..

I guess what I am trying to say with all this is that there are substantial differences between the US and what I have seen in EU.  I see the ability of many here to survive where 'elsewhere' such might not be possible, and that this fact is not being factored in to the overall situation one casually observes watching the news.

Here the government is somewhat held hostage by the population and nit vice versa..

And that is a very fundamental and powerful force..

Just blabbering a bit....

[Faux Pas]

 
Excellent!   +1   Just like the different channelsmembers at RWD.

 
 
 
Just like some members at RWD and their opinions about what is best for you, what is wrong with you, etc.

 

If I didn't know better Gator I'd think you were poking fun at me, and you can. 

Despite our terse disagreement on recent subjects, I'm sure we agree on this one

[Gator]

If I didn't know better Gator I'd think you were poking fun at me, and you can. 

Despite our terse disagreement on recent subjects, I'm sure we agree on this one

My dear Faux Pas, you are correct that I am not poking fun at you.       To the contrary, I like your mood.


I am poking fun at all of us, myself included because at times I have been zealous about my opinion yet not really knowing that much about the person at whom I directed  it. 
 
All of us have been guilty of being too bold with our individual opinions.  However,  RWD is a very wise place collectively IF the person in need can sort through it all and decide what is best for his/her situation.   I believe most do eventually.  I hope they do.
 
I have faith that American government will eventually do what is best for all of us.  I feel we will have out national debt issue headed in the right direction with some sense of the final destination long before the Europeans have an ultimate plan.

Then again, the debt issue may be so large that the only solution is to monetize the debt, i. e., print money.  If that is the case, you better purchase commodities in the ground.  Currently, commodity prices are dipping (because most are dollar denominated), so we are not there yet.

[BC]

 
I have faith that American government will eventually do what is best for all of us.  I feel we will have out national debt issue headed in the right direction with some sense of the final destination long before the Europeans have an ultimate plan.

Then again, the debt issue may be so large that the only solution is to monetize the debt, i. e., print money.  If that is the case, you better purchase commodities in the ground.  Currently, commodity prices are dipping (because most are dollar denominated), so we are not there yet.

Is not monetizing debt noyt current policy?

There is a time lapse for fundamental repurcussions to arrive in EU.. Approx two years or so.  In relative terms as far as debt and gdp is concerned US and EU are on par.. Evidenced by the quite minimal currency fluctuations..

[Gylden]

Everybody pick their favorite hedge/hedges against inflation and HANG ON!!
No matter which political group takes the helm, the globalists will do what they do best (manipulate the powers at be).
 

[Gator]

Is not monetizing debt noyt current policy?

To some extent but it is not causing inflation (see chart below).  Does this suggest that deflationary forces are even larger than we anticipate?

Your comment recognizes that we must have both a sound monetary policy as well as fiscal policy, even with the Fed's target rate near zero.  When dealing with M1, M2, M3, BOGUMBNS I admit that the theories tend to get  really fuzzy to me, and based on the differing opinions among economists, I say they too are not real sure.  I am so confused that I will not comment.  Nevertheless, the current trends are unprecedented.

There is a time lapse for fundamental repurcussions to arrive in EU.. Approx two years or so.  In relative terms as far as debt and gdp is concerned US and EU are on par.. Evidenced by the quite minimal currency fluctuations..

A 10% move is is not "minimal."  It is huge.
 
I agree with the two year time horizon for getting everything in order.  Meanwhile the Germans continue to lend money so that people who do not work as hard and productively as the Germans can buy from the Germans, yet knowing that it is unlikely that the money will be repaid.  That is the same as paying someone to buy your products.  We are involved in something similar.
 

[Faux Pas]

I have faith that American government will eventually do what is best for all of us. I feel we will have out national debt issue headed in the right direction with some sense of the final destination long before the Europeans have an ultimate plan.

Then again, the debt issue may be so large that the only solution is to monetize the debt, i. e., print money.  If that is the case, you better purchase commodities in the ground.  Currently, commodity prices are dipping (because most are dollar denominated), so we are not there yet.

I wish I shared your enthusiasm. Any effort or plan to keep the debt manageable has been gone since the Clinton Administration. It's not that Clinton or his predecessors  prolific at national debt management but, that was the last time in my memory that collectively our elected officials actually cared on both sides of the isle. Since, it has been costs and debt be dammed, partisan politics is the rule of the day.

The thing is eventually, they will have to pay attention because the money/credit/printing presses will stop and the bloodletting will begin. If it comes to that before compromises are reached, it will likely be a very evil world.

If they could sit down now at this minute and reach a compromise, cuts would be deep and severe across the board. The general public would revolt much as we see in Greece now but probably much more intense. It's necessary but the politicians are in favor of power instead of governing.

Yes, I have the pessimistic view. That's all I see coming from our  *cough* leaders

[BC]

A 10% move is is not "minimal."  It is huge.
 
I agree with the two year time horizon for getting everything in order.  Meanwhile the Germans continue to lend money so that people who do not work as hard and productively as the Germans can buy from the Germans, yet knowing that it is unlikely that the money will be repaid.  That is the same as paying someone to buy your products.  We are involved in something similar.

Gator,

remember that initially the USD  and EUR were basically 1 to 1..  As in any financial market, exchange rates are subject and even driven by speculation.  Considering that since the EUR came to be that the USD was held artificially low in order to combat trade deficits and interest rates I am very surprised the dollar is where it is today and that the EUR is not valued much higher.  The 10% you mention is simply speculation and nothing of true substance.  Maybe here today, there tomorrow.

Germany is a part of the EU.. due to their economic advantage, they have invested heavily over the years to maintain their market competitiveness..  German taxpayers built crappy roads down here, nowhere near the standard of roads built in Germany..

The problem with EU is that as far as fiscal policy is concerned, most seemed happy with a decentralized situation.. unlike in the US where state finances take a subordinate role.  I agree wholeheartedly that was a big mistake from the beginning.

Right now EU is where the US was a couple years ago.  But it will recover, in the long term possibly better than the US as the big ticket items, healthcare, social services, care for the aging etc etc are at least well under control without increasing debt that awful much.

Before moving to Italy I can remember that Germany implemented an additional healthcare tax called 'krankenpflegeversicherung'.. yes Germans like long words... basically premiums for long term care for chronic health issues.  Insurance companies jumped on the bandwagon offering even more service, private nurses, home delivery and cleaning services etc etc.. sort of an all inclusive deal that did not cost that much in premiums.

Interesting read: http://prescriptions.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/29/health-care-abroad-germany/

This is a huge ticket item that directly affects US debt... maybe even a third or more..  does the word 'socialist' necessarily have to mean it is not acceptable?...  Obviously it works elsewhere but the 'me and only me' selfishness seems to weigh more on the grand scale of things.

Obamacare or not, taking care of the baby boomers is going to be a daunting and very expensive task.. one that could even break the bank.

IMHO I was hoping Obama could bring more to the plate, a true universal healthcare act..  I was disappointed but cognizant that it was the result of compromise, even within his own party.

Strangely enough, as an immigrant my elderly parents could come here tomorrow and within a month have residency and full healthcare coverage.  I, even as a USC would have difficulty paying astronomical amounts to some insurance company for my family and I would still get a whopping bill / copay if we moved back to the US and one of our kids had a broken  arm or leg.. 

It is simply silly...  maybe even stupid.

Next time you get a prescription filled, send me the name and quantity.. I'll price it here and let you know.  Will bet a good bottle of wine it will be cheaper here..

[ML]

Next time you get a prescription filled, send me the name and quantity.. I'll price it here and let you know.  Will bet a good bottle of wine it will be cheaper here..

Yes, Mericans (those living here) pay the big bucks for medicines.  These big bucks are what cover the astronomical costs of research  and development of the drugs.

This  research and development is a fixed cost whereas the variable costs to actually mix up the drugs and press into a tablet is relatively minor.  So after the Mericans pay the big costs of development,  the rest of the world gets by with paying the minor variable costs of production.

More exploitation of Mericans.

Boy, when you start to think about it this exploitation thingy is huge.

[BC]

Yes, Mericans (those living here) pay the big bucks for medicines.  These big bucks are what cover the astronomical costs of research  and development of the drugs.

This  research and development is a fixed cost whereas the variable costs to actually mix up the drugs and press into a tablet is relatively minor.  So after the Mericans pay the big costs of development,  the rest of the world gets by with paying the minor variable costs of production.

More exploitation of Mericans.

Boy, when you start to think about it this exploitation thingy is huge.

Did you read the article I linked?

http://prescriptions.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/29/health-care-abroad-germany/

Q. Are drug prices regulated?

A. No. In principle, drug makers are free to price their products for the market. But the sickness funds group drugs into therapeutic groups. Patients have a choice between taking a low-cost drug for which they are fully reimbursed, or paying the difference between the low-cost drug and a higher-priced one in the same category. The system is called “reference pricing,” and it is much hated by drug manufacturers around the world — even though it’s a market system relying on the decisions of patients themselves. Isn’t that what the so-called “consumer directed health care” now being pushed in the U.S. is all about?

Of course, when patients can’t evaluate the different drugs, they tend to stick with the low-cost drugs. Apparently it happens often, because expenditures on drugs are much lower in Germany than the United States.

There is a huge difference where the public can decide rather than a lobbyist courting politicians to forbid such 'manipulations of the market'..

It is really absurd what you allow pharma to get away with...

I do agree though that litigation costs in the US for the pharma industry are high.. but that is another fallacy within the US system.  The cost of your burger includes multi million dollar lawsuits for slipping on wet floors.  Same same.

GDP of EU is quite the same as US GDP.. do you think that all drugs are researched and invented in the US and therefore that justifies subsidizing the rest of the world with high prices there?  That is a far stretch...

[BC]

GDP of EU is quite the same as US GDP.. do you think that all drugs are researched and invented in the US and therefore that justifies subsidizing the rest of the world with high prices there?  That is a far stretch...

The US actually gets screwed twice... not only by paying more, but that the profits end up in some overseas account or holding company as licensing fees, thereby paying less taxes in the US.

Just another one of those creative tax loopholes.... 

Live with them or without them... your choice vote.

[SANDRO43]

Yes, Mericans (those living here) pay the big bucks for medicines. These big bucks are what cover the astronomical costs of research  and development of the drugs. This  research and development is a fixed cost whereas the variable costs to actually mix up the drugs and press into a tablet is relatively minor.

Maybe you are not aware of the fact that pharmaceuticals are covered by patents lasting 15-20 years from their approval ?

Granted that, by the time a new drug is on the market, that period may have shrunk to 8-10 years, but this is also due to pharma companies rushing to secure patent coverage before the clinical trials, etc. required to have it approved for distribution by some regulatory agency like the FDA.

So after the Mericans pay the big costs of development,  the rest of the world gets by with paying the minor variable costs of production. More exploitation of Mericans.

Maybe you are also not aware that a company producing a drug patented by a different company first has to secure a license from the latter, which also involves paying royalties for the privilege ?

So, where/when are US pharma companies & Mericans exploited?