Divorced RW experience of dating in the US.

[ML]

Here is the stupid part:  The risk is all the man's.  Assume that he convinces the lady that he is sincere about visiting her in an FSU country, and goes to see her, the first thing she is going to do, if she is smart, is ask to see his passport.  That will identify where he lives and what his age is. 

To preclude this issue from ever happening with me, I pull out my passport immediately so a woman can confirm who she has been talking to. 

But assume that he is lying.  (Most men embellish to some extent.  I like to underplay things.)  The first thing she is going to do, upon discovery, is throw him to the side of the road.   So all of that money he spent to see her is gone and he has nothing to show for it.

The only women who don't care if you're telling the truth are the ones you wouldn't want to be with in the first place. 

How stupid we all are!

Your words are quite far off in my view.

No woman in any country of the hundreds I have met ever asked to see my passport . . . ever.

And your words:

"But assume that he is lying.  The first thing she is going to do, upon discovery, is throw him to the side of the road." 

are also far from true.

When a woman comes to like a man, she will make up all kinds of excuses to herself in her own mind, that his previous lies were just a misinterpretation by herself.

Now this does not hold for lies told AFTER they have become a couple.

I have one example as told to me by a business acquaintance FSU female interpreter.

Back in the days when newspaper advertisements were a good way to attract a lot of responses from FSUW, this interpreter woman ran an ad in a Russian city for a USA man.  Through her own error or that of the newspaper typesetter, his listed age was ten years less than actual.  The man never saw the ad until he arrived, which was after he had carried on several correspondences with and arranged to meet about 20 women.

He was greatly distraught when he finally saw the ad and told the interpreter they must immediately tell the women of the error; and he thought he would lose most of the women at that point.

She advised him not to tell at this point; and that later, after some of the women became very  attracted to him, that they wouldn't care when then told of  the error . . . which most of them would even assume was a deliberate error.

And she was right.

[CDW]

That's why I prefer webcam before meeting!

Many women over 40s have old photos.  I saw a woman in EM - age 45 - with exactly the same photo that I saw in Lonelyfire website about 10 years ago!!

My rules:
Women with fake profiles, no matter how small there are, or how hot the women are  = GOODBYE!

It is no good making excuses about "error" because they are their job to do it properly, just like applying for any jobs, or applying for passport, visas.   When you apply for visa, you must be 100% accurate, so why can't they do it in their profiles!!

[ML]

I think this  use of outdated photos will never end, by men or women.

We all like the way we looked in certain pics X years ago, and we want our potential mate to like the way we look(ed) also.

Yes, it is a risk, but mostly more of a risk than we as individuals realize, because we really do think we look pretty close to the way we looked X years ago.  Yes, just a few pounds here and there, a few wrinkles here and there but hey . . . we can still be recognized today by those who look at that X year old photo . . . so what the heck.

And, actually, in every  instance I can remember, over the 6 weeks of pre-meeting correspondence the  gals who used far outdated initial photos, gradually sent me more and more recent photos.  So it was just the standard 'hook  and reel in' procedure.

In a few cases, the change become so dramatic that I terminated the relationship; but not for the cases of just gradual aging.

[Vasilisa]

I think this  use of outdated photos will never end, by men or women.

We all like the way we looked in certain pics X years ago, and we want our potential mate to like the way we look(ed) also.

Well, the oldest picture I've used so far was the one which was 3 years old and just because it was taken on a VERY pretty beach in the Caribbean and I've never been there since then. I haven't changed much since then, my hair is longer and I lost several pounds.

But when you see nothing close to what he is like right now this really makes you think what is wrong with this man: he can't realize he is not 20 anymore or he wants to attract teenagers only or he considers you to be an idiot or he looks that ugly now that he is afraid to dissapoint you with the fresh pictures.
How can a 47-49 yo put a picture where he is in his 20-ies?!

[lonedrake]

 People lie (both men and women) and/or a dillusional in their interpretation of themselves in their profiles all the time.

 I believe men lie to give them an edge to meet women in US. I also believe it works enough so these guys keep doing it.

 I watched a show last week about online dating. In this episode a woman was "in love" with so and so. She had fallen in love with him through daily e-mails. She was committed to him and planned on marrying him. Only problem was he lived in another state and they had never met and this had been a year or two.
 So the producers set up the meeting. Turns out the guy had just copied a photo from a male dancer. The guy turned out to be 10 years older and about 100 pounds heavier than who he claimed to be.

 Yea.....she was shocked and upset and crying.....but the real shocker was that she thought long and hard about continuing the relationship just because she was so "in love" with him. She actually went to see him again to talk about things and see if they could work it out.

In the end she decided to not see him anymore but wanted to remain friends with him.

[Misha]

Ok, now there is a question, what are these men hoping to get and what is the percentage of men like that vs decent men on the dating websites, you guess?!

How many? I wouldn't know as I  never looked to date men on dating sites However, I knew many women who were quite good at selecting photos to hide more than a few pounds and I expect men do the same. At the end of the day, the best thing is to meet as soon as possible for a quick date and if there is no spark move on. It all boils down to a numbers game: if you meet enough people, eventually you will find one person that interests you.

[calmissile]

How many? I wouldn't know as I  never looked to date men on dating sites However, I knew many women who were quite good at selecting photos to hide more than a few pounds and I expect men do the same. At the end of the day, the best thing is to meet as soon as possible for a quick date and if there is no spark move on. It all boils down to a numbers game: if you meet enough people, eventually you will find one person that interests you.

Agree,

Also a reason to not lie or use old pictures in your profile.  Be yourself, then there no dissapointments in what you look like or what you are.   LOL

[TheTraveler]

i lied a little in the other direction.  e.g. described myself as 6'2" instead of 6'3" (actual).  no mention of the beach-front condo in florida, etc... it allowed for a few pleasant surprises, which is far better than dealing with the aftershock of having over-sold yourself.

[Gator]

How can a 47-49 yo put a picture where he is in his 20-ies?!

Easy answer.  He wants a woman in her 20-ies.   AM would tend to stretch the truth about their age  because they typically write much younger RW. 
 
I always used current untouched photos (within 1-2 years) and reported my weight and height accurately (as I considered myself tall and fit).  However, I admit to reporting my age as 2-3 years younger than actual.    No RW had a problem with it, saying many AW were more blatant.   
 
My experience with RW profiles is that at  90 % of them are accurate.   My guess is that AW profiles are only 50% accurate.   In fact, RW will disclose specific weight while an AW will never do that, and instead check the box for "Athletic" or "Few Extra Pounds" or "Average" when wearing a size 12 dress.       I knew only one RW who fibbed about her age.   She was in her early 40s and wrote 39.  Maybe some RW in their early 30s will also write 29.
 
It does not matter as webcam and serious correspondence will reveal all.

[Bee Farmer]

Hello Vasilisa,
  I have a few thoughts I would like to share.

  When a Western guy considers dating a FSUW he learns the FSU dating protocols.  He doesn't try dating her with Western dating style.  If he does, it won't last long.
  Don't expect a WM to know the FSU dating rules while you are here in America.  An American guy will try dating you using the American dating rules he knows, and he will not know what he did wrong.
  If you are going to try finding a guy on Match.com, I would encourage you to put in your profile that you are a real Russian lady, and you expect to be treated like a real Russian lady.  If a guy wishes to pursue a relationship with you, then he should learn proper courtship of a Russian lady before he takes you on a date.
  I consider match.com to be comparable to trying to pick out the best looking horse in a glue factory.  That's a polite way of saying that if you go digging through a dumpster, you should expect to find garbage.  They are just using internet dating websites because it requires little effort - they aren't putting much effort into the relationship, and aren't expecting to get much back.  The vast majority of guys on match.com are looking for nothing more than a cheap call girl. 

The American dating method is to
#1 spend some time and see if you like the person. 
For guys, even if they don't like the girl, if she is hot or easy, many/most will still try getting her in bed.
For girls, even if they don't like the guy, many/most will try to see how much attention or money they can get from the guy, and many/most have no problems hopping into bed to get the attention or money from the guy.

#2 if you do like them, then decide if they are marriage material or not

For many guys, they are looking for a one night stand that lasts the rest of their life.  That is the extent of the emotional involvement they are looking for.

I think the FSUW tend to try to decide if the guy is marriage material #1, and if he is marriage material, then they will decide if they like the guy or not. (or try to find reasons to like the guy)

Please understand that an American guy just wants to get to know you on the first few dates.  He will not even consider the thought of marriage until he gets to know you a little.

FSUW have a support group around them of close friends and family they can turn to for advice.  I'll take a guess that you feel very alone here, and are lacking that support group.  So you are turning to the forum as your support group, not knowing where else to turn.  I don't know that many people here have caught on to that.  (aside from the FSUW on here)

I had a pretty rough childhood, and a friend's father kind of took me under his wing.  He gave me some advice on women.  He told me that I should go to church to find a girl.  He said that they won't always be the best looking girls, but they will stick by their man.

I pass on that advice to you Vasilisa.  Attend a church, even if you are not very religious.  Get to know some of the women, and let it be known that you are lonely and would like to find a good guy.  In every church I have ever been to, there have ALWAYS been women who try to be matchmakers.  Make sure those older ladies know what kind of guy you are searching for, and what your expectations are.  If there is a single guy anywhere in the area who has any decency about him, those women will find him.  While the guys they try to hook you up with may not be your prince charming, I can pretty much guarantee you that the guys they introduce you to will be a much better class of guys than the bums on match.com that you have been finding.

Old fashioned ways of dating like having friends play matchmaker really do work still, but many people turn to internet sites because it requires less work from them.  They want to put as little effort into it as possible.  And in a relationship, you get out of it what you put into it.  How many FSUW really care about guys who write emails?  It isn't until he gets off his butt and comes to visit her that she really thinks he is serious.

At the beginning of the thread, you mentioned that you would see profiles of guys who seemed interesting, but you would be lacking in something they wanted, so you dismissed them.  May I ask what criteria you feel that you didn't meet?  Sometimes the criteria are ideals, rather than mandatory.  Guys aren't always looking for perfection - if you have 4 of 5 characteristics the guy likes, don't feel inadequate because you lacked that 5th characteristics.  I have joked before that I want to find a rich woman - she can live at her end of the mansion, and I will live at the other end.  We'll never see each other and never fight or argue.  While I may like the idea of a rich woman, I do concede that I'm not holding my breath and would be willing to settle for a poor girl who actually loved me.  :-)  So if you find a profile of a guy that seems decent, and you have several characteristics he is looking for, don't sell yourself short because you don't have every single characteristic he mentioned.

I would also like to share some of my dating experiences with American women.  On the first date, I expect to be asked where I work, or what I do for a living.  American guys expect a girl to ask that right off the bat.  She wants to know how much money I make.  (ie, how much money I can spend on her or her 3 kids with 3 different daddies.)  She wants to know if I have kids that I am paying child support on.  She wants to know if I own, or rent a home.  (And God forbid that she finds out that I don't have any debt or kids to support - American women start drooling at the dollar signs in their eyes.)  American women want to complain about all the unfortunate things in their life, and how it is everyone else's fault.

That is what American guys expect when they go out on a date.  It is ALL about the American girl.  Her interest in getting to know the guy is limited to learning how well he can satisfy her selfishness.  You were right when you made a comment about nobody appreciating true feelings, emotions, generous sincere attitude and either ignores it or laughs at it.  If you are looking for a guy in the 35+ age range, odds are they have been burned by a bad relationship.  They have just been made to feel that their feelings, emotions, etc. had no value, and the guy received the ultimate rejection of divorce.  So ask yourself why guys don't care about emotions or feelings - it is because American women have trained them that feelings and emotions are not important.

Keep in mind that most guys in the 35+ age range are hurting.  They have been emotionally drained and have serious self-esteem problems, even if they don't want to admit it.   What the guys are hoping to get from a date is some acceptance and validation.  They want a girl to help rebuild their ego and self-esteem.  The serious relationship stuff will come later.

The guys are jaded and dejected.  If they encounter many women getting serious on the first date, the guy may decide that a relationship is not worth the emotional and financial toll.  At that point, the guy decides it is better to stay single, and his intentions are then limited to finding a mistress.  It's cheaper financially and emotionally.

They say that great minds discuss ideas. 
Regular minds discuss current events and the weather. 
Small minds discuss other people.

If I went on a date and my date wanted to talk about WWII, geography, or world history, I would think she was mentally defective.
I want a girl to help soothe my emotional pain, and help rebuild my self-esteem.  The way for her to do that is just to spend time with me and give me her attention, while we talk about ideas, current events, the weather, or other people.
When people are 20, it may be acceptable to get serious about their intentions.  When people are 40 and hurting, they need time to heal before they think about being serious.

You asked what the guy was doing for 4 years that he dated a lady before finding out she didn't want kids.  He was healing...

They say that a girl worries about the future until she gets married.
A guy never worries about the future until after he gets married.

They also say that a girl marries a guy thinking he will change, but he doesn't.
A guy marries a girl thinking she won't change, and she does.

[GQBlues]

...I would also like to share some of my dating experiences with American women.  On the first date, I expect to be asked where I work, or what I do for a living.  American guys expect a girl to ask that right off the bat.  She wants to know how much money I make.  (ie, how much money I can spend on her or her 3 kids with 3 different daddies.)  She wants to know if I have kids that I am paying child support on.  She wants to know if I own, or rent a home.  (And God forbid that she finds out that I don't have any debt or kids to support - American women start drooling at the dollar signs in their eyes.)  American women want to complain about all the unfortunate things in their life, and how it is everyone else's fault.

I was going to disagree except for the fact you *owned* up to your own experiences. Maybe the fit marks the shoe?

That is what American guys expect when they go out on a date....

Now I fully disagree.
 

....So ask yourself why guys don't care about emotions or feelings - it is because American women have trained them that feelings and emotions are not important.

Ahh..puhleeese! Cry me a river.

[jone]

Welcome to the discussion, Bee Farmer.  You have touched on so many topics that it is impossible to respond.  Your perception of AW is much different than my own.  Having been married and older than 35 I can relay that most AW I meet have their own act together. 

My interest in FSU women stems from my love of spending time there.  If you are seeking an FSU woman to make up for what is lacking in AW I think you will be disappointed. 

In the event that you have not had a great opportunity to experience this forum, I challenge you to read it for a month or two.  You will find that dating an FSU woman requires a graduate degree in dating and relationship skills.  To that end, welcome aboard and I wish you well.

[newjason]

Hello Vasilisa,
  I have a few thoughts I would like to share.

  When a Western guy considers dating a FSUW he learns the FSU dating protocols.  He doesn't try dating her with Western dating style.  If he does, it won't last long.
  Don't expect a WM to know the FSU dating rules while you are here in America.  An American guy will try dating you using the American dating rules he knows, and he will not know what he did wrong.
  If you are going to try finding a guy on Match.com, I would encourage you to put in your profile that you are a real Russian lady, and you expect to be treated like a real Russian lady.  If a guy wishes to pursue a relationship with you, then he should learn proper courtship of a Russian lady before he takes you on a date.
  I consider match.com to be comparable to trying to pick out the best looking horse in a glue factory.  That's a polite way of saying that if you go digging through a dumpster, you should expect to find garbage.  They are just using internet dating websites because it requires little effort - they aren't putting much effort into the relationship, and aren't expecting to get much back.  The vast majority of guys on match.com are looking for nothing more than a cheap call girl. 

The American dating method is to
#1 spend some time and see if you like the person. 
For guys, even if they don't like the girl, if she is hot or easy, many/most will still try getting her in bed.
For girls, even if they don't like the guy, many/most will try to see how much attention or money they can get from the guy, and many/most have no problems hopping into bed to get the attention or money from the guy.

#2 if you do like them, then decide if they are marriage material or not

For many guys, they are looking for a one night stand that lasts the rest of their life.  That is the extent of the emotional involvement they are looking for.

I think the FSUW tend to try to decide if the guy is marriage material #1, and if he is marriage material, then they will decide if they like the guy or not. (or try to find reasons to like the guy)

Please understand that an American guy just wants to get to know you on the first few dates.  He will not even consider the thought of marriage until he gets to know you a little.

FSUW have a support group around them of close friends and family they can turn to for advice.  I'll take a guess that you feel very alone here, and are lacking that support group.  So you are turning to the forum as your support group, not knowing where else to turn.  I don't know that many people here have caught on to that.  (aside from the FSUW on here)

I had a pretty rough childhood, and a friend's father kind of took me under his wing.  He gave me some advice on women.  He told me that I should go to church to find a girl.  He said that they won't always be the best looking girls, but they will stick by their man.

I pass on that advice to you Vasilisa.  Attend a church, even if you are not very religious.  Get to know some of the women, and let it be known that you are lonely and would like to find a good guy.  In every church I have ever been to, there have ALWAYS been women who try to be matchmakers.  Make sure those older ladies know what kind of guy you are searching for, and what your expectations are.  If there is a single guy anywhere in the area who has any decency about him, those women will find him.  While the guys they try to hook you up with may not be your prince charming, I can pretty much guarantee you that the guys they introduce you to will be a much better class of guys than the bums on match.com that you have been finding.

Old fashioned ways of dating like having friends play matchmaker really do work still, but many people turn to internet sites because it requires less work from them.  They want to put as little effort into it as possible.  And in a relationship, you get out of it what you put into it.  How many FSUW really care about guys who write emails?  It isn't until he gets off his butt and comes to visit her that she really thinks he is serious.

At the beginning of the thread, you mentioned that you would see profiles of guys who seemed interesting, but you would be lacking in something they wanted, so you dismissed them.  May I ask what criteria you feel that you didn't meet?  Sometimes the criteria are ideals, rather than mandatory.  Guys aren't always looking for perfection - if you have 4 of 5 characteristics the guy likes, don't feel inadequate because you lacked that 5th characteristics.  I have joked before that I want to find a rich woman - she can live at her end of the mansion, and I will live at the other end.  We'll never see each other and never fight or argue.  While I may like the idea of a rich woman, I do concede that I'm not holding my breath and would be willing to settle for a poor girl who actually loved me.  :-)  So if you find a profile of a guy that seems decent, and you have several characteristics he is looking for, don't sell yourself short because you don't have every single characteristic he mentioned.

I would also like to share some of my dating experiences with American women.  On the first date, I expect to be asked where I work, or what I do for a living.  American guys expect a girl to ask that right off the bat.  She wants to know how much money I make.  (ie, how much money I can spend on her or her 3 kids with 3 different daddies.)  She wants to know if I have kids that I am paying child support on.  She wants to know if I own, or rent a home.  (And God forbid that she finds out that I don't have any debt or kids to support - American women start drooling at the dollar signs in their eyes.)  American women want to complain about all the unfortunate things in their life, and how it is everyone else's fault.

That is what American guys expect when they go out on a date.  It is ALL about the American girl.  Her interest in getting to know the guy is limited to learning how well he can satisfy her selfishness.  You were right when you made a comment about nobody appreciating true feelings, emotions, generous sincere attitude and either ignores it or laughs at it.  If you are looking for a guy in the 35+ age range, odds are they have been burned by a bad relationship.  They have just been made to feel that their feelings, emotions, etc. had no value, and the guy received the ultimate rejection of divorce.  So ask yourself why guys don't care about emotions or feelings - it is because American women have trained them that feelings and emotions are not important.

Keep in mind that most guys in the 35+ age range are hurting.  They have been emotionally drained and have serious self-esteem problems, even if they don't want to admit it.   What the guys are hoping to get from a date is some acceptance and validation.  They want a girl to help rebuild their ego and self-esteem.  The serious relationship stuff will come later.

The guys are jaded and dejected.  If they encounter many women getting serious on the first date, the guy may decide that a relationship is not worth the emotional and financial toll.  At that point, the guy decides it is better to stay single, and his intentions are then limited to finding a mistress.  It's cheaper financially and emotionally.

They say that great minds discuss ideas. 
Regular minds discuss current events and the weather. 
Small minds discuss other people.

If I went on a date and my date wanted to talk about WWII, geography, or world history, I would think she was mentally defective.
I want a girl to help soothe my emotional pain, and help rebuild my self-esteem.  The way for her to do that is just to spend time with me and give me her attention, while we talk about ideas, current events, the weather, or other people.
When people are 20, it may be acceptable to get serious about their intentions.  When people are 40 and hurting, they need time to heal before they think about being serious.

You asked what the guy was doing for 4 years that he dated a lady before finding out she didn't want kids.  He was healing...

They say that a girl worries about the future until she gets married.
A guy never worries about the future until after he gets married.

They also say that a girl marries a guy thinking he will change, but he doesn't.
A guy marries a girl thinking she won't change, and she does.

this is the most obtuse post I have read here in a long while.

sad that you see the world this way dude. You are missing out on a lot.

[Patagonie]

Easy answer.  He wants a woman in her 20-ies.   AM would tend to stretch the truth about their age  because they typically write much younger RW. 
 
I always used current untouched photos (within 1-2 years) and reported my weight and height accurately (as I considered myself tall and fit).  However, I admit to reporting my age as 2-3 years younger than actual.    No RW had a problem with it, saying many AW were more blatant.   
 
My experience with RW profiles is that at  90 % of them are accurate.   My guess is that AW profiles are only 50% accurate.   In fact, RW will disclose specific weight while an AW will never do that, and instead check the box for "Athletic" or "Few Extra Pounds" or "Average" when wearing a size 12 dress.       I knew only one RW who fibbed about her age.   She was in her early 40s and wrote 39.  Maybe some RW in their early 30s will also write 29.
 
It does not matter as webcam and serious correspondence will reveal all.

+1
I met also only one who lied about her age saying she was 33 whereas she was 39. She was very sportive and could delude people during the first time;

[Ranetka]

help soothe my emotional pain, and help rebuild my self-esteem.  When people are 20, it may be acceptable to get serious about their intentions.  When people are 40 and hurting, they need time to heal before they think about being serious.

Yes. And once he is properly healed he will move onto someone else.
 No man will stay with you out of gratitude.
Been there, done that and thank you very much. I say let the man heal somewhere else.

[Misha]

Old fashioned ways of dating like having friends play matchmaker really do work still, but many people turn to internet sites because it requires less work from them.

That is quite the overgeneralization and I would wager that online dating will be more effective than hoping some random woman you meet at some church somewhere will help you find a date 

Keep in mind that most guys in the 35+ age range are hurting.  They have been emotionally drained and have serious self-esteem problems, even if they don't want to admit it.

I want a girl to help soothe my emotional pain, and help rebuild my self-esteem.

It would be much more effective to work on issues of ego and self-esteem before dating and not expect a woman to soothe emotional pain. IMVHO, expecting anybody (man or woman) to be a counsellor/psychologist from the first date onwards would make for train wreck of relationship from the get-go...

[TheTraveler]

Yes. And once he is properly healed he will move onto someone else.
 No man will stay with you out of gratitude.
Been there, done that and thank you very much. I say let the man heal somewhere else.

agree.
 
it sounds like he's looking for a long-term slumpbuster, doesn't it?
 
not very considerate!

[Lily]

 
I had a pretty rough childhood, and a friend's father kind of took me under his wing.  He gave me some advice on women.  He told me that I should go to church to find a girl.  He said that they won't always be the best looking girls, but they will stick by their man.

I pass on that advice to you Vasilisa.  Attend a church, even if you are not very religious.  Get to know some of the women, and let it be known that you are lonely and would like to find a good guy.  In every church I have ever been to, there have ALWAYS been women who try to be matchmakers.  Make sure those older ladies know what kind of guy you are searching for, and what your expectations are.  If there is a single guy anywhere in the area who has any decency about him, those women will find him.  While the guys they try to hook you up with may not be your prince charming, I can pretty much guarantee you that the guys they introduce you to will be a much better class of guys than the bums on match.com that you have been finding.

Old fashioned ways of dating like having friends play matchmaker really do work still, but many people turn to internet sites because it requires less work from them.  They want to put as little effort into it as possible.  And in a relationship, you get out of it what you put into it.  How many FSUW really care about guys who write emails?  It isn't until he gets off his butt and comes to visit her that she really thinks he is serious.
 

Bee Farmer,
I cannot express enough how much I appreciate your post.
There are some things that I disagree with, like requiring a FSU way to court, presence of a woman's support group, etc. Besides, there are a few things that we Russian women here can capitalize on, like knowing what does the man expect of us on a first date, and the American way of dating.
May I ask a question? Hope this would be useful for Vasilisa as well.
You wrote that most guys are emotionally drained. I'd say some but not all. For my part, perhaps I met just a handful of them, but not sure at all. How do we tell which guy is actually emotionally drained, and which one is likely not?
 

[Gator]

Bee Farmer,
 
 

I can tell you spent much time writing your post.  I liked your comment about the best looking horse in the glue factory.  However, just last night at the annual country club member appreciation party (can you say "free food" and "open bar"), my wife and I had a drink with a married couple who met on Match.com.  He a successful private banker, she a health professional, both good looking and intelligent.  She is kind and wants to hang out with my wife. 
 
Success stories do happen.  Do not let discouragement and disappointment  win.   We are all different.   Church is a good place, but so are many other places.
 
It sounds as if you are still healing.  When thrown from a horse, I tended to get back into the saddle quickly with a smile even though I was bruised.  I had the attitude that the next time would be better.  As life evolved I accomplished much, experienced much and was blessed more.   Life is still glorious in my golden years.   
 

[Bee Farmer]

You will find that dating an FSU woman requires a graduate degree in dating and relationship skills.

I humbly disagree.  I believe dating a FSUW requires only a minor tutorial of cultural things - for example, not addressing letters with "Dear XXXX" and making sure roses are given in odd numbers.

I believe the courtship and relationship skills are the same for dating ANY good woman, regardless from what county she comes from.  The problem is that courtship skills are so low that for many people, they feel like they are obtaining a graduate degree just to get to what should be basic relationship skills.

If someone feels like they have to get a graduate degree in dating and relationship skills to date a FSUW, I would encourage them to think twice about if they have any business pursuing ANY good woman.

If a guy wants to get a good woman, he simply should be the kind of guy good women want.  If a girl wants a good guy, she should be the kind of girl good guys want.

Easier said than done.  For starters, how many people really know what a good guy or a good girl really is?  Did we create some fantasy idealization of what a good man/woman is?  Or do we have role models to turn to for guidance?

And once he is properly healed he will move onto someone else.
 No man will stay with you out of gratitude.
Been there, done that and thank you very much.

That is a defeatist attitude.  You might as well say that no man will stay with you for any reason.  If you complement each other, and help fill the inadequacies in each others lives, you will find reasons to stay together.  If you go around looking for reasons for why a man would not stay with you,  I'm sure he won't want to disappoint you.

IMVHO, expecting anybody (man or woman) to be a counsellor/psychologist from the first date onwards would make for train wreck of relationship from the get-go...

It has been said that dating is just a practice run for a girl to learn to deal with the guy's fears and insecurities.  There is more truth to that than we like to admit, as everyone knows that real men never have any fears or insecurities.

May I ask a question? Hope this would be useful for Vasilisa as well.
You wrote that most guys are emotionally drained. I'd say some but not all. For my part, perhaps I met just a handful of them, but not sure at all. How do we tell which guy is actually emotionally drained, and which one is likely not?

I said most guys 35-40+ (assuming they are good men).  Younger guys who haven't been through a divorce or rough breakup won't be carrying the emotional baggage.

Yes, there is a very easy way to tell if the guys are emotionally drained.  Were they committed, and truly in love?  If so, they fought like crazy trying to make the relationship work.  They had an enormous emotional investment in the relationship.  If that relationship failed, they will be emotionally drained, as they poured their heart and soul into it.  A failed relationship takes a lot out of people.

If a guy 35-40+ is not emotionally devastated by the failed relationship/divorce, then it is a pretty safe assumption that he didn't have a whole lot of emotional investment in it.  (And if he wasn't serious about that relationship, what makes you think he will be serious about a relationship with you?)  This is not necessarily a guy who is emotionally drained, but rather a guy who is emotionally unavailable.

Also, look at how many relationships the guy has been in.  Is he a pro-dater?  Does he date a different girl every few weeks?  Is he one of those guys who doesn't want to invest anything in the relationship - and if he doesn't get whatever he wants with little or no input from him, he just finds a different girl?  Or is the guy very picky in the relationships he pursues?

I had a somewhat different upbringing than many Americans.  I was exposed to patriarchal cultures with strong family values.  I grew up in a rural area, with many Amish and Mennonites in the community.  I am still friends with many Amish and Mennonites.  I understand what real men are, and how feminine women can be.  I've seen how distressed and worried a friend's 22 or 23 year old daughter was, because she was still single and didn't want to become an Old Maid.

If a guy wants a woman with traditional family values, it would be simpler for him to pursue a Mennonite girl.  She is already assimilated into American culture, has extremely strong family values, and knows English fluently.  Then again, you will have to have a strong religious conviction, no going to bars looking for women, (guys go to bars to get a barfly, not decent girls) no getting drunk, or using foul language, be a real man, etc.   You might even have to ask her father for permission to ask the girl out.  Of course, I should probably mention that she believes that marriage is for life - which means that if you are divorced, she will probably prefer to live the rest of her life as a spinster before she would give you the time of day.  However, if you show over time that you are an extremely good man, an older spinster may be willing to date you.  (Should I mention that premarital sex is still a no-no, she will not wear make-up, will always wear dresses, and a short dress will be between her knees and ankles.  She will always dress modestly, and Mennonite women typically do not place much emphasis on staying thin or being beautiful - the quality of character is much more important than the outside appearance.)

If a guy wants to date a FSUW (or ANY good woman) there is but one rule he needs to know.  That rule can even be summed up in one word.  And it runs counter to how American/western culture is.  It is easier said than done.

Be.

That is the only rule you really need.  Be. 

We live in a "have" culture.  Just look at all the nut-jobs at the Black Friday sales.  Their mind is limited to what they can have.  Material accumulation.

"Do" gives us a better insight of what someone's true essence is.  What they do, and why they do it gives us a better idea of who someone really is.

"Be" is the most important of all.

How many men see pictures of a smokinhotkova and say, "I want to HAVE her."  Then they say, "What do I have to DO to get her."  They are still in the material accumulation mindset.  When they are told, "You just have to BE a good man" they can't understand.  It runs counter to the material accumulation mindset.  So they try to learn how to do the things a guy does when he BE a good man.  Then they feel like they are having to get a graduate degree in dating and relationship skills.

I suspect that if you surveyed the men who have married FSUW women, the guys were already good guys.  They were already BEing good men, so they did not have to make a big character adjustment.

An easy way to tell how someone will treat you is to look at how they treat the people around them.  Anyone can be nice and act good for a short time when they are trying to impress you.  But once that initial time is over and they are no longer still trying to impress you, how will they treat you then?  Look at how they treat other people.  Are they mean, rude, etc?  Or are they nice and courteous to others too?  If they are kind to others around them, odds are, they will still be kind to you even after they are not trying to impress you.

It is difficult for someone with a "have" mentality to try to learn to adjust their character to a "be" character.  If you are not used to being kind and caring to those around you, it probably is like trying to get a graduate degree in dating and relationship skills.

my wife and I had a drink with a married couple who met on Match.com.  He a successful private banker, she a health professional, both good looking and intelligent.  She is kind and wants to hang out with my wife.
 
Success stories do happen.  Do not let discouragement and disappointment  win.   We are all different.   Church is a good place, but so are many other places.

Yes, success stories happen.  People win the lottery too.  That doesn't mean the odds aren't stacked against you.  For every success story, how many thousands of dates failed to produce a real, committed relationship?  I like to try to get odds in my favor when possible.  Match.com has a vested financial interest in people NOT finding a relationship - the old biddies at the church have a vested interest (pride/bragging rights) in you having a happy relationship.

[Misha]

Yes, success stories happen.  People win the lottery too.  That doesn't mean the odds aren't stacked against you.  For every success story, how many thousands of dates failed to produce a real, committed relationship?  I like to try to get odds in my favor when possible.

Yes, because you have to date many people before you find somebody who is a good match. Do you want or expect to go on one date and immediately find the one? That would truly be the equivalent of winning the lottery.

[size=78%]Match.com has a vested financial interest in people NOT finding a relationship - the old biddies at the church have a vested interest (pride/bragging rights) in you having a happy relationship.[/size]

A dating site exists to help you find first dates. They are there to help you contact people who are also looking and out of those people you contact you do your best to interest them to meet you for a first date. Once you have the first date, the dating site is a moot point as they should be out of the picture. The same is true if you go on a blind date organized by somebody else. You meet, and if it clicks you will go out on a second date and take it from there. The people who helped set up the date should not be holding your hand and organizing the rest of your relationship. If I follow your logic, then if you go out on a date organized by your buddies at church, and you do not click and are not compatible, then you should continue dating simply to ensure they have bragging rights?   

[Misha]

There is more truth to that than we like to admit, as everyone knows that real men never have any fears or insecurities.

Yes, we all have fears and insecurities, but one should be able to deal with them and address them without the need to rely on a woman we are dating to somehow help us deal with them. Ideally, people should be the ones working on resolving their own issues and not expect others to magically come to their rescue. If they do need outside intervention, then best they seek out professional help IMVHO.

[Bee Farmer]

I found an interesting piece talking about the process of approaching relationships after divorce.
http://www.stepinstitute.ca/pdf/10stagesfromDivorce.pdf

Yes, because you have to date many people before you find somebody who is a good match. Do you want or expect to go on one date and immediately find the one? That would truly be the equivalent of winning the lottery.

There are ways to eliminate the ones you know you are not compatible with without having to actually go out on a date with them.

When you invest, do you buy stocks from every company in the hopes of finding a few good performers, and then dumping all the junk stocks?  Of course not.  You do research and due diligence, and only buy into the most promising stocks.  Why would you invest your time and emotions any differently?

I find it ironic that when a FSUW dates many men, she gets called a pro-dater, yet somehow you imply that a double standard is ok. 
Where I come from, we call women who try to date many men tramps, or worse.  We call guys who try to date many women players, man-whores, dogs, etc.

Trying to date many people in the hopes of finding someone special is known as playing the field.  Most folks are wise enough to recognize that players are NOT the quality of people that will provide a serious relationship.  It doesn't matter if it is a girl player or a guy player - you won't get a serious relationship from them.

Would you encourage your sister, your daughter, or a close friends daughter to date a guy who tries to date as many girls as he can?  I can't speak for anyone else, but I have far too much class and respect for women to do that.  For me to suggest that a girl was compatible for dating with a player would be to say that girl herself was a slut/hoe/tramp.

A dating site exists to help you find first dates. They are there to help you contact people who are also looking and out of those people you contact you do your best to interest them to meet you for a first date. Once you have the first date, the dating site is a moot point as they should be out of the picture.

The problem arises when someone wants more than a first date.  The dating sight is good for players who want first dates with multiple people.  However, if you are looking for a serious relationship, it becomes much harder to find using a dating website.  Dating websites foster an environment conducive to players, not an environment conducive to building serious relationships.

If I follow your logic, then if you go out on a date organized by your buddies at church, and you do not click and are not compatible, then you should continue dating simply to ensure they have bragging rights? 

You're not following my logic, or anyone elses logic.  What you are suggesting is illogical.

The church folks pre-screen possible dates for compatibility, to increase the likelihood that you will click.  They won't introduce you to a player - they will recognize the player lacks serious intentions.

Odds are, if you don't click with a match your friends set up, that will make them try even harder to find a better match for you.  Of course, if you set unrealistic expectations, they will likely not do any looking for you.

You see, friends have a vested interest in your happiness.  Dating websites have no vested interest in your happiness.  For that reason alone, having friends trying to introduce you to someone will always have a better chance at success than a dating website.

 

but one should be able to deal with them and address them without the need to rely on a woman we are dating to somehow help us deal with them. Ideally, people should be the ones working on resolving their own issues and not expect others to magically come to their rescue. If they do need outside intervention, then best they seek out professional help IMVHO.

Do you know what I hear when I read your words?

If you have a problem, solve it yourself.  Do NOT ask me for anything.  If you can't solve whatever problem you have by yourself, go get someone else to help you.  Do NOT ask me to help you with anything.  I am too selfish to care about any needs you might have.

A marriage or serious relationship should be based upon what you WILL do for your partner - basing it upon what you won't do for each other is a guaranteed recipe for disaster.  If you are unwilling to try to meet the needs of someone you are dating, the problem is not them - the problem is you.

May I ask a question? Hope this would be useful for Vasilisa as well.
You wrote that most guys are emotionally drained. I'd say some but not all. For my part, perhaps I met just a handful of them, but not sure at all. How do we tell which guy is actually emotionally drained, and which one is likely not?

Therapists say that after you get out of a relationship, you need a minimum of 6 months without dating anyone to get your emotions and feelings back to some measure of normal.  When you date, you start imprinting behaviors and habits that don't stop when you break up - it usually takes 6 months to get back to normal.  Otherwise, if you date again within that 6 month period, you still have unresolved feelings, and they will just be your rebound.  Even if you keep dating people, it just becomes a series of rebounds.

Now for long term relationships, it often takes 4-6 months of recovery time for every year you were in the relationship.  For example, if you were together for 10 years, it can easily take 5 years before you are really ready to get involved in another relationship.  Interestingly, researchers say it can actually take less time for a woman to recover than for a man.  Also, the support group you have around you affects how long it takes you to recover.  People with a strong support group recover faster - people with a weak or nonexistent support group may take longer to recover.

So a good way to tell how emotionally drained a guy is is to ask how long it has been since he dated anyone, how long he was in his last serious relationship, and how long he waited to start dating after the relationship ended.

[jone]

Beef Harmer,

You better figure out what a pro-dater is before you try to apply your logic to it.  Hehehehehe.

[Bee Farmer]

You better figure out what a pro-dater is before you try to apply your logic to it.

Considering that the original meaning of a "date" was an appointment with a prostitute, I think the most truthful meaning of a "pro-dater" would be a prostitute or a regular customer of prostitutes.  However, the word "date" has been corrupted and given a new meaning, so a more modern definition of a "pro-dater" would likely be someone who repeatedly participates in the courtship process with individuals they have no intentions of attempting to commit to, ie someone who has no intentions of proceeding beyond the initial meetings.

You do bring up a good point - the difference between dating and courtship.  In my opinion, if a guy is interested in pursuing a FSUW or a good girl from anywhere in the world, he had better forget everything he knows about dating, and learn everything about courtship.  If a guy is already familiar with courtship, the difficulties of pursuing a relationship with a FSUW will not seem as big as most folks make them out to be.

It might help to get a better understanding of the American perspectives of courtship and dating.

In the 1800's, a date was an appointment with a prostitute.
If a man wanted a relationship with a lady, he often asked her father for permission to court her.  They would sit in the living room and talk, and get to know each other, building a friendship.  If they went anywhere, they would be chaperoned.  Pre-marital sex was frowned upon.  Courtship was spending time together with the expressed purpose of evaluating the other as a potential husband or wife. 

WWI changed things.  As many young men left to go to war, charity girls came on the scene.  These were girls who were impressed by soldier's uniforms, or simply girls who wanted to make sure the young boys didn't end up dying on the battlefields while they were still virgins.  The charity girls took the boys virginity, and gave them venereal diseases.  The government finally started arresting girls on sight if they were near military bases if they were alone, or dressed up.  They arrested tens of thousands of girls suspected of being charity girls.  About half of the girls had venereal diseases.  (This part of American history is often swept under the carpet and hidden away.)

Once sexual relationships started being common in the courtship process, people started calling the courtship process "dating".

Pre-marital sex was still looked down on by society.  Wholesome girls were still expected to be chaste.  From 1920-1950 many girls got a lover's knot before they got married.  This was a surgical procedure - a doctor threw a couple stitches in, and on her wedding night, the stitches would rip out.  She would bleed, and give the appearance that she had been a virgin.

WWII changed things again.  We had a whole lot of young men get killed, leaving a shortage of eligible bachelors.  The shortage of guys created immense competition among the girls.  If they wanted to get a guy, they had to convince the guys they were even better than the other girls.  Guys didn't want to marry tramps - they wanted to marry wholesome girls who would be good mothers.  Is it any surprise that 1950's wives are held in high regard for how well they treated their husbands?  That is because they had to be that good in order to get a husband back then.

Then came the 60's and free love, drugs, etc.  And things have continued to go downhill.

Now, people have forgotten what courtship is.  We have dating, and now we have a newer practice known as a "hook-up".  It's sex with no strings attached.  It's basically a first date with sex involved - and dating websites have created a culture for hooking up to flourish.

I feel sorry for these girls.  Back in the 1800's, they got paid for "hook-ups" or "dates".  Now, dating websites say women are paying for contact info for guys they want to hook up with.  If you go out with a girl, it's expected that she will pay half the cost.

Some things never change.  A "date" is still a visit with a prostitute.  Only in today's modern age in America, the girls do it for free.

Unless America has a war that kills off a lot of guys, which forces women to start treating their guys better so they can get a guy - guys are going to have to go looking for women in places where there is a shortage of good guys.

It's also advisable for the guys going to those places searching for women to learn what courtship is.  If you want a good girl, forget dating, and learn courtship.  Good women around the world will thank you.

Here's a fairly interesting article about dating and courtship.
http://www.boundless.org/2005/articles/a0001456.cfm