Parasites, Cultural Differences, and other explanations

[ML]

I am not sure if there is an older thread that touches on these themes or not.

But quite often in various threads, and just recently in Rivcardco's and NewJason's, the issue came to my mind again.

First, I realize there is a large cultural difference between FSU (and perhaps others) and USA (and perhaps others) concerning the roles of man and woman when it comes to financial matters.

We have the simplest case that in FSU the man is expected to always pay for everything involved with dating; whereas in the USA, it is not uncommon to share such costs.

And we know that, in many cases, this is almost a necessity in FSU because of vast difference between incomes of men and women.

But, the strange (or interesting, or any  other such words you might want to use) thing is that even when the earning power is similar between man and woman, in FSU the man is still expected to pay because of the tradition thingy.

Second, there is a growing trend among women in USA that they don't want to be dependent on men.  They want to earn their own money, even to the extent that they feel they are an equal partner (in the financial sense) in the marriage or relationship.

Contrast this to the common theme we see here that the FSU woman is looking for a man to help her solve her financial problems or help her attain the life status that she wants.  Yes, we all know  that the earnings power of the FSU woman when she is living in the FSU and after she comes here for a time is not great, so that must be factored in.  But still, there seems to be the sense that the  FSU woman is looking to better her financial situation through a man, even in the cases where she could do much  of it herself after a time in the USA.

I could go on and on;  but I am out of time right now.

My major question here is . . . how do the women view this?

To me it seems that this is a pretty clear example of a parasite type of behavior.
How can a woman (or anyone) value themself when their behavior is clearly that of a financial parasite?

Or is it that the cultural thing is so strongly imbedded that the women see it as so natural to rely on the money of the man that they have effectively pushed the parasite idea far back in their mind?

Yes, I know  that many of you will claim that the AW is just as much a financial parasite as the FSUW; but it's just that I have never experienced such.

[Disclaimer Note:  As most of you who have read my thread know, the Gal living with me obtained a large life insurance settlement from the death of her executive husband.  As such her existing behavior is completely different from the typical FSUW with respect to money (she needs and wants nothing from me of a financial nature); but without this money her behavior would probably be the same as a typical FSUW.]

[SANDRO43]

I'd say it depends on a country's culture and history - particularly economic. When I got married in  the late 1960s, we Italian men were naturally supposed to: finish our studies, be drafted, find a job, get married and support our wives, more or less in that order .

Not all women had jobs then, and many who had would quit them after their marriage, to devote themselves exclusively to family duties. Women's salaries were much lower than males', so that was often affordable financially.

Then came 1968, and over time the picture gradually changed to a more US-like situation. Possibly many FSUW are still at mid-ford in that evolution.

[LAman]

ML....are you saying that money...is the driving force behind many women?
I have met many where the opposite is true....so it is really an individualistic thing on what makes a women happy......a so called 'balancing of life'...

[calmissile]

Interesting topic...
In my current adventure trying to sort out the hundred or so replies to letters (many unsolicited), I decided to try a different approach.  I have sent out an extensive profile/bio that gives the women a pretty detailed description of me, my life in America, my likes and dislikes, etc.  I figured it would scare off most of them and I could focus on those that can accept/like me and their new environment.

One of the things I make clear is that for the majority of American households it is necessary for both spouses to work to enjoy the American dream.  There are exceptions for the wealthy, but I make it clear that I am not wealthy and my wife would need to work, just like most American women.

I had hopes that this would discourage the gold diggers and eliminate any women that thought they would come to America to find it 'easy street' and sit on their behinds when not in the beauty parlor, etc.

I was surprised at the responses.  It eliminated a fair number of women, however the positive ones replied "of course I expect to work. I understand what you say".  One English professor in Ukraine teases me whenever she comes on Skype and asks  "Have you found me a job yet?"   Several others began asking what kind of work might be available for her in the US.

This was somewhat of an experiment for me to see what kind of respnses I would get as well as to lay the cards out on the table from the beginning.

I am also amazed at the kind of responses I have been getting from the free dating sites.  I had not used them before.  Currenty there are 4 University English teachers, 3 doctors, and a host of other very well educated women that seem very sincere.  Of course I am looking at  ages 40 and up so that might have a bearing on the kind of responses I am getting.  So far only a couple of scammers.

Now, the challenge will be the logistics of how to travel all over Ukraine to meet the final selections. 

[ECOCKS]

Finding one who is not as ML describes is as rare as a successful age gap marriage.

It can happen but so can getting struck by lightning.

They will tell you what you want to hear when you ask these things but that has little or no bearing on the true, long-term goals and objectives of the average FSUW.

Best of luck in your search!

[vwrw]

The first three and a half years, I was living for expenses of my husband. I was not engaged in ours or his children care, and the amount of time that I spent on our household maintenance  was little. Thus, I was in the position of a constant taker, and he was in the position of a constant giver with regard to resources. To you, my relationship with my husband may appear as a parasite - donor relationship. My husband, however, felt differently. To him, our relationship was mutually beneficial because he was getting benefits from it too, although those benefits were not financial then.  He  also felt that he was not wasting resources on me, but making an investment.

Starting the last August (2011), I have been working in my husband’s company, and I am going to be there until the August of 2013. The changes that I initiated in the company have resulted in significant savings for the company. The amount of savings that will be accumulated by  the August of 2013 will exceed 150,000$ and is big enough to compensate my husband for all “me – related expenses” he incurred. And this is only start. After I finish school, I will earn money not only buy finding ways to save but also bringing my own income.

Unlike my husband, I felt somewhat parasitic during the three and half years. I did not value myself high in the sense of what I  felt I was entitled to. For example, if we were buying something for my husband, I felt he deserved to have whatever “toys” he wanted. If we were buying something for me, I was strictly restricting my spending on myself.   I did not feel it would be fair to do otherwise.       

[IAmZon]

The first three and a half years, I was living for expenses of my husband. I was not engaged in ours or his children care, and the amount of time that I spent on our household maintenance  was little. Thus, I was in the position of a constant taker, and he was in the position of a constant giver with regard to resources. To you, my relationship with my husband may appear as a parasite - donor relationship. My husband, however, felt differently. To him, our relationship was mutually beneficial because he was getting benefits from it too, although those benefits were not financial then.  He  also felt that he was not wasting resources, but making an investment.


Starting the last August (2011), I have been working in my husband’s company, and I am going to be there until the August of 2013. The changes that I initiated in the company have resulted in significant savings for the company. The amount of savings that will be accumulated by  the August of 2013 will exceed 150,000$ and is big enough to compensate my husband for all “me – related expenses” he incurred. And this is only start. After I finish school, I will earn money not only buy finding ways to save but also bringing my own income.

Unlike my husband, I felt somewhat parasitic during the three and half years. I did not value myself high in the sense of what I  felt I was entitled to. For example, if we were buying something for my husband, I felt he deserved to have whatever “toys” he wanted. If we were buying something for me, I was strictly restricting my spending on myself.   I did not feel it would be fair to do otherwise. 

Good for you!  You have ALWAYS struck me as a very sensible and well balanced human being ... now more than ever.   You kick ass girl LOL

[ghost of moon goddess]

I believe that some  RW do live with the "parasitic infection" named "Financial responsibility for the woman must always rest  on the man/husband, no matter if he is a local or a foreigner".

The question is what makes them believe that the AM provide the most favorable environment for that "parasite" to survive? 

[GQBlues]

....The question is what makes them believe that the AM provide the most favorable environment for that "parasite" to survive?     

I thought Santa Barbara was pretty popular in Russia? No?

[Vasilisa]

 So, you are blaming women for their desire to let the men play the role of providers :

You are giving a lot of theory here, but looking at my Russian friends' families I can hardly (ok, I know 1 , but she is very well educated and is from a rich family, her father s a big boss and her husband is , too) find the couple where the woman is a "parasite": in most families it's ether 50/50 or the woman works more, raises the kids and pays the bills:) She is also supposed to wear high heels boots and look nice, otherwise her husband can find the reason to explain why he is cheating on her and people will blame her on letting herself go.
In WWII when Western women did't work, wore fur and diamonds Soviet women fought and worked like men, were military jets pilots, etc, now they just want a relible partner wih whom they would feel like a weak feminine girl, not like a working horse.

My American friend, a woman in her 40-ies whose salary is around 80K  told me once that she was hoping that her husband would find a really nice job, so she would be able to stay at home. Her husband's salary is around 200K, he pays most of the bills,visits to restaurants,cosmetic surgery for her, too. She pays electricity bills, grocery shopping, cosmetic stuff, clothes, etc. Western women want fun, diamonds, etc, it doesn't depend on nationality, I think, most people  want to live better and not to work too much for this. At the same time I didn't notice that she is trying to dress in a feminine way, she dresses in a comfortable way, looks chubby and she is fine with it but she still doesn't want to work and wants to have equal rights with her husband.

You can also read articles about protestant and orthodox family models and women roles to get some idea why some things are expectable.
In most cases it looks like men pay more when they are dating, but as soon as they get married  it's normally 50/50.

[GQBlues]

Strange thread.


If economics (financial) was never a factor in these relationships, there never would've been a marriage industry. This is akin to diving into a pool and then be surprised you're wet.


The only parasitic mentality to me here is, knowing full well you're going to an economically-challenged region, which largely enables many-a-men to 'find' a wife, then be surprised and/or be defensive if the woman had some expectation of comfort and provisions.

[Vasilisa]

Here is an extract from the article.
Do these women look like parasites to you?!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_women_in_World_War_II

"800,000 women served in the Soviet Armed Forces during the war.[1] Nearly 200,000 were decorated and 89 eventually received the Soviet Union’s highest award, the Hero of the Soviet Union. They served as pilots[2], snipers, machine gunners, tank crew members and partisans, as well as in auxiliary roles."
So, you mean it's ok if you are a bomber pilot and have kids at the same time, but expecting for the men to pay is being a parasite

[Slumba]

Here is an extract from the article.
Do these women look like parasites to you?!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_women_in_World_War_II

"800,000 women served in the Soviet Armed Forces during the war.[1] Nearly 200,000 were decorated and 89 eventually received the Soviet Union’s highest award, the Hero of the Soviet Union. They served as pilots[2], snipers, machine gunners, tank crew members and partisans, as well as in auxiliary roles."
So, you mean it's ok if you are a bomber pilot and have kids at the same time, but expecting for the men to pay is being a parasite

Vasilisa ... let me pitch in with a "movie for the weekend" : The Dawns Here Are Quiet

http://video.kylekeeton.com/2009/05/russian-video-dawns-here-are-quiet.html

PS I don't think many men here, are looking for women of such an age, that they were 15 to 22 years old during the Great Patriotic War ...

[Vasilisa]

Also, this is a new TV project that started this month, a  dark but quite realistic movie about several women around 30 yo that work in the same office, you can see what their life is like.
(You need to speak Russian to understand that).

http://www.1tv.ru/sfilms_edition/si7300/fi1

Who of them would you call a parasite and why?

[Patagonie]

So, you are blaming women for their desire to let the men play the role of providers :

You are giving a lot of theory here, but looking at my Russian friends' families I can hardly (ok, I know 1 , but she is very well educated and is from a rich family, her father s a big boss and her husband is , too) find the couple where the woman is a "parasite": in most families it's ether 50/50 or the woman works more, raises the kids and pays the bills:) She is also supposed to wear high heels boots and look nice, otherwise her husband can find the reason to explain why he is cheating on her and people will blame her on letting herself go.
In WWII when Western women did't work, wore fur and diamonds Soviet women fought and worked like men, were military jets pilots, etc, now they just want a relible partner wih whom they would feel like a weak feminine girl, not like a working horse.

My American friend, a woman in her 40-ies whose salary is around 80K  told me once that she was hoping that her husband would find a really nice job, so she would be able to stay at home. Her husband's salary is around 200K, he pays most of the bills,visits to restaurants,cosmetic surgery for her, too. She pays electricity bills, grocery shopping, cosmetic stuff, clothes, etc. Western women want fun, diamonds, etc, it doesn't depend on nationality, I think, most people  want to live better and not to work too much for this. At the same time I didn't notice that she is trying to dress in a feminine way, she dresses in a comfortable way, looks chubby and she is fine with it but she still doesn't want to work and wants to have equal rights with her husband.

You can also read articles about protestant and orthodox family models and women roles to get some idea why some things are expectable.
In most cases it looks like men pay more when they are dating, but as soon as they get married  it's normally 50/50.

I think they (she) don't have tell you all. If her husband make 200k AND she needs to work, they is something wrong in this family. Especially with money.

[Slumba]

Above links don't work for "The Dawns Here Are Quiet", but good quality with subtitles on Youtube:

[pitbull]

Strange thread.


If economics (financial) was never a factor in these relationships, there never would've been a marriage industry. This is akin to diving into a pool and then be surprised you're wet.


The only parasitic mentality to me here is, knowing full well you're going to an economically-challenged region, which largely enables many-a-men to 'find' a wife, then be surprised and/or be defensive if the woman had some expectation of comfort and provisions.

GQ, this post about sums it up!
 
 

[Vasilisa]

I think they (she) don't have tell you all. If her husband make 200k AND she needs to work, they is something wrong in this family. Especially with money.

There are people who are sattisfied with 70K salary, there are the ones to whom 300K is not enough. I think they are fine: they live in a huge house with a pool, etc, they don't have kids, they have a yacht, they travel a lot, they like their style of life, they don't want to change it I think, they will have to change if she doesn't work I guess.

[calmissile]

Relax Ladies!!!

ML did a great job to stir the pot by using the term parasite.

To put things is perspective...  it is natural for everyone to want to improve their lives and those of their children.  That's why people work overtime and long hours to improve their lifestyles.  I would expect it is the reason most FSU women are willing to immigrate to other countries to improve their lives as well.  There is nothing selfish or demeaning about it.

Prior to WWII most women in the US did not work and stayed home to raise the children.  Our culture changed since WWII with everyone wanting to purchase homes, have cars, TVs and live the new American Dream.  It can be argued whether it was for the better or worse, but that's how it is.

To correct a little history posted above,  women in the US went to work in our factories during WWII along with the older men and produced much of the armament that was shipped overseas to fight the war.  We also had women ferry pilots that flew the bombers from the US to Europe for the war.  Our military also had many, many women nurses from the US.   Our women contributed a lot to the success of the Allies winning the war.

I have to give credit to the ladies that served in combat for Russia.  I have watched documentaries about their roles they played as you have suggested.  They certainly deserve a lot of credit for their patriotism and bravery.

The notion that a FSU women coming to the US is being a parasite is offensive.  The ones I am talking to are anxious to work and seem to want to earn their way to the American Dream like anyone else.

ML, you did good!  You did stir the pot.     

[Vasilisa]

Yes, I know  that many of you will claim that the AW is just as much a financial parasite as the FSUW; but it's just that I have never experienced such.

So why didn't you marry an AW then?! Also, you don't know that some women in the US don't work but are stay at home moms and/or work part time?!

[Ellen]

There are no cultural difference at all. I think everyone in a healthy mind should realize that bringing a person into foreign country= provide care and take responsibility for a 1-3 years. The time of adaptation depends of the age, profession, degree and English skills.
I was getting my degree here and then I found a great job and my husband supported me the entire time. We have one bank account now and when I was dependent on him. The only difference is there are two direct deposits now.
I have an American friend and she took care of her American husband when he was at school and studied. Now they both contribute equally to the family.
Me and my husband do not have an age difference. But I have a Russian friend here and she has a significant age difference with her husband. He expect her to work for full time in the store and sell a junk for few bucks per hour because he can't pay her bills and refuses to pay for her to get a degree in America. I think this is sick!
Some old crazy men want to get a young bride and totally expecting not to pay for anything. This is ridiculous. I am not even surprised that girls are leaving them after getting a green card. I would too.
This is not about money. This is about support and taking responsibility.

P.S. Sorry if my post is too rude. But OP made me mad because I worked very hard on getting my degree here, I studied and took 18 credit per semester and worked in a large company in the same time. I had an excellent GPA and was a number one student in my class. I still work very hard at my professional job now. What I read, some guy is posting that Russian women are parasites. Common. There are tons of American Women that are fat and housewives. This is such sick OP. This is disgusting. The author should be ashamed of what he posted!!!

[Misha]

Quite the myths being bandied about. The fact of the matter is that pretty much all women work in the FSU, except for maternity leave. They will use their salaries to help the family meet its needs.


As for AW not working before WWII, that is sheer fantasy. Read up on the textile mills of New England and you will see that everybody had to work to survive including older children and women. Only the extremely old did not work, and they looked after young children when the mother's were in the factory...

[Daveman]

There are no cultural difference at all. I think everyone in a healthy mind should realize that bringing a person into foreign country= provide care and take responsibility for a 1-3 years. The time of adaptation depends of the age, profession, degree and English skills.
I was getting my degree here and then I found a great job and my husband supported me the entire time. We have one bank account now and when I was dependent on him. The only difference is there are two direct deposits now.
I have an American friend and she took care of her American husband when he was at school and studied. Now they both contribute equally to the family.
Me and my husband do not have an age difference. But I have a Russian friend here and she has a significant age difference with her husband. He expect her to work for full time in the store and sell a junk for few bucks per hour because he can't pay her bills and refuses to pay for her to get a degree in America. I think this is sick!
Some old crazy men want to get a young bride and totally expecting not to pay for anything. This is ridiculous. I am not even surprised that girls are leaving them after getting a green card. I would too.
This is not about money. This is about support and taking responsibility.

P.S. Sorry if my post is too rude. But OP made me mad because I worked very hard on getting my degree here, I studied and took 18 credit per semester and worked in a large company in the same time. I had an excellent GPA and was a number one student in my class. I still work very hard at my professional job now. What I read, some guy is posting that Russian women are parasites. Common. There are tons of American Women that are fat and housewives. This is such sick OP. This is disgusting. The author should be ashamed of what he posted!!!

A husband "owes" his wife a college degree...  Why yes, by god, it's his responsibility - by virtue of marriage she becomes entitled to have her education AND all bills paid.  The Marital Grant Program.  She should not have to work at any menial job to assist in putting herself through school (of course not, that's only for Americans. Russians, on the other hand, are above all that. They are entitled to free education and fully paid bills by virtue of being Russian and marrying the American)... 




 

[pitbull]

. But I have a Russian friend here and she has a significant age difference with her husband. He expect her to work for full time in the store and sell a junk for few bucks per hour because he can't pay her bills and refuses to pay for her to get a degree in America. I think this is sick!
Some old crazy men want to get a young bride and totally expecting not to pay for anything. This is ridiculous. I am not even surprised that girls are leaving them after getting a green card. I would too.
This is not about money. This is about support and taking responsibility.

You go Elen!
And you are totally correct - if an old goat wants a young tight body, the only way he can have access for a while is through compensating for being an old goat with financial stability, lifestyle and helping to achieve the younger wife's dreams (education included). If he wants American-style financial equality in marriage, he should go for one of the available AW his own age. She might weigh $250 lb. and have kids though. 
If he wants a young tight bod AND make her pay the bills even if it means low-level job - she would be totally stupid not to dump him the very next day she gets her GC. 
 
 

[mies]

Yes, I know  that many of you will claim that the AW is just as much a financial parasite as the FSUW; but it's just that I have never experienced such.

My friend recently registered at dating site. She is Russian, 30yo, professional and well educated (both in USA and Russia), reasonably attractive, does not have kids, was married in Russia long time ago but divorced her husband due to his addiction problem. Now she lives in USA in a large city. She wrote in her profile that she is interested in serious relationship leading to marriage and described herself a little bit.
She tells me that in two weeks since her registration there is a non-stop flow of messages, but all of them are from some sort of scum or parasites or generally unserious men unsuited for marriage. She is surprised that in all this mass of e-mails and profile views there was not a single normal man with a job and interested in marriage. About half of the guys are unemployed or akin to unemployed, majority of all e-mails from guys seek information on how she can help them improve their financial stability and standard of life: how big her apartment is, in what area of city it is, how much does she make, asking her directly to help them get settled in this city or relocate to this city and so on. It seems that "parasite" behavior is quite common among men as well.

on your question why in FSU guy always is supposed to pay:
- apart from the gender unequal roles in the society, pregnant women and women with kids are very unprotected and vulnerable in FSU. Letting a man pay for his woman is no more than a test to see whether he would take care of her and a child when/if they decide to have a child/children together.
- women in FSU de facto have less rights than man. You cannot expect the person to have less rights, but make them participate equally in financial decisions. For example: if the guy invites his female date to the restaurant, and picks the restaurant - he is supposed to pay because he picked this place. If they both decided - then they can split the bill.

I think men are very often looking to improve their life through women too.
For example - there was a recent thread in "Ask an RW" section, where the OP has mentioned that " I would have gone to floor 3 expecting there is wife, who loves sex, loves to do house hold chores and loves romantic guys." If he wants to have neat house - imho he should either learn to do the chores himself to share them equally with his wife, or hire the maid.