How Many RW are Psychologically Damaged?

[BC]

65-75% of the ones going over there.

Kinda fits the shoe I see.

I have mentioned this a few years ago... I was really surprised how many obviously psychotic women are involved in MOB actively searching for a foreign husband. I was reading some RW forums dedicated to this subject and what I learned was eyeopening. But really, it only makes sense. RM will figure them out in one date usually but with the language and cultural barrier it isn't as easy for WM. Even when a WM sees something that doesn't sit right with him in a lot of cases he will dismiss his concerns due to "cultural differences".
By the way the title of the thread only mentions RW, I think it concerns UW just as much.

Ed, you address only half... what's your experience with the men?.. I remember a video a while back you posted.. reminded me of a dim bulb in the closet....

[Gator]

About 90%.

65-75% of the ones going over there.

Gee ECOCKs, you are absent for several months.  And upon your return, you seem seriously jaded.  Anything to share? 

I recall that you had some direct experience in matchmaking other than your marriage.   I also sufferred a serious head trauma so my memory is not what it used to be.   
 
I know in the past that you were very cautious and were not a "rah rah predictor of optimistic endings."    Thus, I can not call your change a catharsis.   However,  you now seem even more gloomy about the prospects for us mere mortals. 

[ECOCKS]

Kinda fits the shoe I see.

Ed, you address only half... what's your experience with the men?.. I remember a video a while back you posted.. reminded me of a dim bulb in the closet....

Yeah, but it could be worse, at least I'm not Italian......

[Eduard]

Impressive.   RM are faster than professional psychiatrists who would need at least 3 sessions just to diagnose the condition.   Maybe RM learn quickly that they are not going to get any sex so they move on and dismiss the woman as crazy. 

LOL, Phil, I wouldn't need to "diagnose the condition". Many times it's easy to tell that there is something off with a person just by talking with them for a few minutes. That's good enough for me. I won't worry about prescribing the right meds for her either, I'll just be out of there as quickly as possible!

[Misha]

I am straight as a locomotive, so this must apply to me as well, or does it exclude men who look younger than their age?   
 
Did you read the closing?   
 

Yes    Smart women know this, though most men are too arrogant to admit it 


Women can amplify the effect with the right attire and a smidgen of flirtiness. One compliment and a hint that a woman is interested, and a man loses at least 20 IQ points :p

[BdHvA]

In New England the expression is the apple does not fall far from the tree.

My guess that many of the men who seek out Russian or Ukraine women seeking to do the generous and white knight thing are in fact looking for a fixer er upper and are also themselves damaged. But like allot of neophytes they underestimate the cost and maintenance. Yes difficulties can be explained by cultural differences or age gaps.

In the end it is damaged people meeting (and mating) with damaged people. By the way that happens in Europe and even in Canada.

[Maxx2]

Even when a WM sees something that doesn't sit right with him in a lot of cases he will dismiss his concerns due to "cultural differences".

Sometimes he thinks he is overreacting in a negative judgment. That there is a logical explanation of her red flags that they are not red at all.

[ECOCKS]

In New England the expression is the apple does not fall far from the tree.

My guess that many of the men who seek out Russian or Ukraine women seeking to do the generous and white knight thing are in fact looking for a fixer er upper and are also themselves damaged. But like allot of neophytes they underestimate the cost and maintenance. Yes difficulties can be explained by cultural differences or age gaps.

In the end it is damaged people meeting (and mating) with damaged people. By the way that happens in Europe and even in Canada.

MY GOD NO! Canada?!? They have them in CANADA TOO?

 

[ECOCKS]

Sometimes he thinks he is overreacting in a negative judgment. That there is a logical explanation of her red flags that they are not red at all.

When they are not just red, but flashing in a strobe like pattern.....(ref. Jason's story among so many others).

[noelscot]

In the "Hi, I'm Jason" thread we read a fascinating account of his experience with Yana.    ECOCKS correctly summarized her and others like her as,
                "These women are toxic, damaging everything they come in contact to a greater or lesser degree."   
 
Then Slumba added another example.

Concurrent with this was ML's thread about parasitic RW, although I consider that a different animal.   

Encountering such women is not recent news.  The RWD archives are replete with such examples, and this has been going on for a long time.   In fact when I joined RWG 10 years ago, I recall Maxx describing his infamous wife.  She exhibited some weird behavior, and she ended up inflicting heavy damage to Maxx as ECOCKS would have predicted..   
 
Why is this?  To expand upon ECOCKS's summary: 
               Such women have untreated psychological condition of an unknown source.  That is, they are damaged.

Many people look down on the women who list themselves with MOB agencies.   Much of this is about scammers and insincere women.   Those women don't bother me.  However, there is lurking in MOB agency profiles something more menacing.  Is it possible that not a small number of psychologically damaged women  have made it to agency catalogs?   Buyer beware.   

Here is the irony.  Many people believe that the western men who pursue RW have some psychological baggage.  The batty chasing the batty?
Here is another kicker.   Some men recognize there is a potential problem, yet are drawn into the drama and believe that they can help the woman with her issues and demons.      Just keep in mind that an educated psychiatrist would treat such women yet would avoid emotional relationships with them as if they were the plague. 
 
I have some thoughts about possible explanations.  First I would like to hear what others have to say.

This is a good thread, Gator. Let me tell a personal annecdote for the peanut gallery. Guy talks to girl for long time. Girl tells him sometimes she has really bad moods and just wants to be left alone for days on end. Guy wrongly assumes she is talking about her monthly cycle, not larger depression issues. Guy is wrong. Girl does have some serious depression issues. Girl moves in with guy. Guy comes home from work each day to girl sitting in a dark house, brooding. Throw in the language barrier and the cultural differences and a shacking up inopportunely timed during that special time of the month, and you get an even worse witches' brew than it would normally be.
Normal? What is normal? The DSMIV (maybe they have a newer version since I went to university and studied psychology) pretty much states that normal is this: 1) Productive member of society; 2) Not a danger to self; and 3) not a danger to others. Let me state categorically that I am not a licensed shrink, and that anyone with problems should see a professional, but preferably also a Priest. God and morals play an important role in all of this, I think.
So let's say a girl is technically "normal." You see where there is lots of room for psychological troubles. A person can be a "functional drug addict," for example. He makes it to work everyday, but it is all about the next fix. Likewise, a person can be "functional" and have lots of psychological baggage. Throw into the mix a person who has made the active decision to try to leave their home, their family, their friends, their pets, their church, etc. That is a very profound decision.
So let's say a man is technically "normal." He gets mixed up with a girl who is also technically "normal," but together their underlying problems are exacerbated by the language barrier, cultural differences, and the power dynamic.
Here is the really weird part of all this MOB stuff. Who has the power? The woman? The man? Why? Why not? There is a temptation to commodify the women and then dehumanize them in a God-like quest for the perfect woman. We're sorting through bins for undamaged FSUW, like eggs in a carton. And the women are doing the same thing. Remove citizenship from the equation and the McDonald's culture view of getting a bride/groom quickly, and I think a lot of the kinks get worked out in all of this, just like any other relationship. Flip the script. Tell them you are moving HERE with a straight face, and find out how much they really like you. Some people wear masks better than others, and "it is better to see one time than hear it one hundred times."
 

Anyway, all women are crazy. It's just the degree.  

[Maxx2]

When they are not just red, but flashing in a strobe like pattern.....(ref. Jason's story among so many others).

Red flags come in varying intensities. Also what might seem red is not red at all. As example a RW who shows little interest in the American life of the AM she is engaged too. Is she worried that it will all fall apart and she doesn't want to jinx it by showing too much interest? Or she isn't too concerned about such material things? Or she has little interest in her AM and doesn't see him as a long term relationship anyway?

[vwrw]

Is it possible that not a small number of psychologically damaged women  have made it to agency catalogs? 


Many people believe that the western men who pursue RW have some psychological baggage. 

Interesting choice of words! So, women are damaged, which implies a long repairmen process and possibly an inability to restore to a health state; while men have psychological baggage, which implies relative easiness of discarding it.   


 From my own observations (i do not like to rely on hearsay in forming my opinions), I am inclined to believe that women involved in international dating /marriage are less psychologically damaged than men are. Most women I met in person seemed okay to me. The reverse is true about men. And I do not think  that cultural differences affected me and led me to seeing weirdness in those men because when it comes to communication with American men and women that have not been involved in international relationship, most of them do NOT seem weird to me AT ALL. [/size][/font]

[Eduard]

Kinda fits the shoe I see.

Ed, you address only half... what's your experience with the men?.. I remember a video a while back you posted.. reminded me of a dim bulb in the closet....

BC, I turn down most men who contact me wanting to get help with finding a wife in the FSU. Most of the time it is easy to see from their email to me, sometimes it takes a phone or Skype conversation, but you are correct, many WM who are looking for FSU women also have issues just as FSU women who are actively searching for a WM. I'm usually a pretty good judge of character and I really do pay attention to my subconscious mind and what it is telling me. In all 6 years I've been doing this I have only accepted one WM that I shouldn't have worked for. Both my wife and I felt that there was something not quite right with him, but there were certain circumstances that I can't discuss here that made me disregard all the warning signs and I did try to help him.


In regard to that old video, I have to say that you may not be as good at judging a person's character as you think you are. That guy is happily married now to a UW who lived in St. Pete when we met her. I consider him a friend and I would much rather have some one like him have my back than many here who criticize him. His wife is also very happy and loves him very much.  They travel a lot, do all kinds of fun stuff and most of people here can only wish they had a life like that. I could post some pics of their adventures that they send me, but won't do it without their permission. One thing he won't do for sure is spend hours on these forums getting into pissing matches over nothing, trying to boost his own self esteem and ego by demeaning others. The guy is a very bright IT director at a large company and has his own business on the side. Makes great money and loves his woman and she loves him back. Yes he cusses, and he's got this real funky Irish way of spelling words sometimes, so what? Many people cuss, it doesn't make them bad people. In the end it really doesn't matter what people on these forums think of him. What matters is that he's got a great close family that loves him, friends that love and respect him, and a woman that loves him.

[BC]

Thanks for the update Ed.

[Eduard]

When they are not just red, but flashing in a strobe like pattern.....(ref. Jason's story among so many others).

Ed, to be fair to Jason, he met the girl face to face at a social event, this wasn't a MOB type situation where people write each other for weeks before they meet and they can not really communicate with each other.
This was a "boy meets girl" situation and he just fell in love with a beautiful girl. She also acted differently in the beginning so at the time when he could still walk away he had no red flags to help him make that decision. Once in love we do stupid things. I know I've been there years ago and I can totally understand how it was impossible for Jason to just walk away from a woman he fell totally in love with. It's almost like telling a crack adict "hey, don't you understand that this stuff is bad for you, quit right now!". So give Jason a break, will you, guys? I think it's great that he got to experience such love in his life. Many people never do.

[Gator]

noelscot,
that was an impressive stream of consciousness.  Good suggestion to flip it as you say, "Tell them (RW) you are moving HERE with a straight face, and find out how much they really like you."
You liked the film "Clerks."    It was very entertaining.  In the theme of this thread, I thoroughly enjoyed another offbeat film,  "Lars and the Real Girl."  Watched it a second time with a RW.  We got to about the 15-minute mark before she said "no more."

[Gator]

Interesting choice of words! So, women are damaged, which implies a long repairmen process and possibly an inability to restore to a health state; while men have psychological baggage, which implies relative easiness of discarding it.   

Very good, you are a precise reader.   Nothing intended, probably just tired of saying damaged (or the phone rang).
 



 

From my own observations (i do not like to rely on hearsay in forming my opinions), I am inclined to believe that women involved in international dating /marriage are less psychologically damaged than men are. Most women I met in person seemed okay to me. The reverse is true about men. And I do not think  that cultural differences affected me and led me to seeing weirdness in those men because when it comes to communication with American men and women that have not been involved in international relationship, most of them do NOT seem weird to me AT ALL.

Valid point, except that you are basing your opinions on first impressions.  Some people can seem very normal until you know more about them. Then they tell you dark secrets.    Nevertheless, the men were sending bad vibes in just a few minutes.  If they were on their best behavior, can you imagine how bad they actually were.  Either that or your physical beauty made them nervous and incogitant as per Misha's link.   

[vwrw]

Good suggestion to flip it as you say, "Tell them (RW) you are moving HERE with a straight face, and find out how much they really like you."

Didn't we have a Scotte... here, who lived "happily" in Ukraine for 5 or more years. He was so sure in his wife's love. Certainly , she loved him since she lived with him not for "new passport".  Yet she dumped him within first 6 months after they relocated here.  Coincidence? 

[ECOCKS]

This is a good thread, Gator. Let me tell a personal annecdote for the peanut gallery. Guy talks to girl for long time. Girl tells him sometimes she has really bad moods and just wants to be left alone for days on end. Guy wrongly assumes she is talking about her monthly cycle, not larger depression issues. Guy is wrong. Girl does have some serious depression issues. Girl moves in with guy. Guy comes home from work each day to girl sitting in a dark house, brooding. Throw in the language barrier and the cultural differences and a shacking up inopportunely timed during that special time of the month, and you get an even worse witches' brew than it would normally be.
Normal? What is normal? The DSMIV (maybe they have a newer version since I went to university and studied psychology) pretty much states that normal is this: 1) Productive member of society; 2) Not a danger to self; and 3) not a danger to others. Let me state categorically that I am not a licensed shrink, and that anyone with problems should see a professional, but preferably also a Priest. God and morals play an important role in all of this, I think.
So let's say a girl is technically "normal." You see where there is lots of room for psychological troubles. A person can be a "functional drug addict," for example. He makes it to work everyday, but it is all about the next fix. Likewise, a person can be "functional" and have lots of psychological baggage. Throw into the mix a person who has made the active decision to try to leave their home, their family, their friends, their pets, their church, etc. That is a very profound decision.
So let's say a man is technically "normal." He gets mixed up with a girl who is also technically "normal," but together their underlying problems are exacerbated by the language barrier, cultural differences, and the power dynamic.
Here is the really weird part of all this MOB stuff. Who has the power? The woman? The man? Why? Why not? There is a temptation to commodify the women and then dehumanize them in a God-like quest for the perfect woman. We're sorting through bins for undamaged FSUW, like eggs in a carton. And the women are doing the same thing. Remove citizenship from the equation and the McDonald's culture view of getting a bride/groom quickly, and I think a lot of the kinks get worked out in all of this, just like any other relationship. Flip the script. Tell them you are moving HERE with a straight face, and find out how much they really like you. Some people wear masks better than others, and "it is better to see one time than hear it one hundred times."
 

Anyway, all women are crazy. It's just the degree.

When I did this (told them I was moving to Ukraine) it eliminated 10 out of 12 women OF THE ONES DATED. There were others apparently eliminated since I had it clearly in my profile. The 10 just wanted to verify that I was serious (or maybe check to see if I had a driver/bodyguard and a cushy apartment w expense account from my employer while enjoying a free date). That's hardly a scientific study but it was good enough for my purposes and will certainly winnow the chaff quickly. There are still those who play the long game though.

[Eduard]

Thanks for the update Ed.

you are welcome, BC

[Gator]

Didn't we have a Scotte... here, who lived "happily" in Ukraine for 5 or more years. He was so sure in his wife's love. Certainly , she loved him since she lived with him not for "new passport".  Yet she dumped him within first 6 months after they relocated here.  Coincidence? 

I recall him.  ScottinCrimea. 

Good man, highly educated (a physician), interesting writer, and very helpful to others.  He was mugged and injured seriously while in Ukraine.    And another member (whose name escapes me)  who also lived in Ukraine would signin periodically just to annoy Scott, accusing him of living a fantasy,  I suppose the other man was correct..
 
When you say she dumped him, you are probably correct as he would have dumped her in Ukraine if it were his idea.  Then again, a relationship can spiral downward in a fast manner and a decisive man will move to terminate it  rather than linger.

[vwrw]

I recall him.  ScottinCrimea. 

Good man, highly educated (a physician), interesting writer, and very helpful to others.  He was mugged and injured seriously while in Ukraine.    And another member (whose name escapes me)  who also lived in Ukraine would signin periodically just to annoy Scott, accusing him of living a fantasy,  I suppose the other man was correct..
 
When you say she dumped him, you are probably correct as he would have dumped her in Ukraine if it were his idea.  Then again, a relationship can spiral downward in a fast manner and a decisive man will move to terminate it  rather than linger.

Yes, he was ScottinCrimea! If I  remember correctly his wife called for police to protect her from his "abuse" I guess. I do not believe in an overnight transformation in an abuser, so i concluded he was used as a mule.

As you know i had to kiss a frog too before i met my prince -charming. So i was thinking what could help me to avoid the mistake. I think if instead of justifying the strange gestures in behavior of my first fiancee, i was focusing on deciding whether i could happily live with those behaviors, i would have avoided  the mistake. For example, if a woman seems somewhat rude to you , do not justify it as cultural differences or other excuse, but think if you can happily live with a rude person. If yes, fine. If not, move on.

[XMan]

Yes, he was ScottinCrimea! If I  remember correctly his wife called for police to protect her from his "abuse" I guess. I do not believe in an overnight transformation in an abuser, so i concluded he was used as a mule.

As you know i had to kiss a frog too before i met my prince -charming. So i was thinking what could help me to avoid the mistake. I think if instead of justifying the strange gestures in behavior of my first fiancee, i was focusing on deciding whether i could happily live with those behaviors, i would have avoided  the mistake. For example, if a woman seems somewhat rude to you , do not justify it as cultural differences or other excuse, but think if you can happily live with a rude person. If yes, fine. If not, move on.

I don't recall reading the ScottInCrimea threads, but there are many others I have not read as well.  Regardless, if he was really with his ex for 5 years in Ukraine, she must have enjoyed her life and relationship to some degree.  Or was she simply unbelievably patient, waiting for her opportunity later?  If the latter, it is a sobering example indeed.

[Faux Pas]

The other American that lived in Ukraine for a number of years and enjoyed pushing ScottinCrimea's buttons was Krimster. Krimster and Scott had met in person and apparently wasn't very fond of each other. Krimster's only apparent reason for posting was to piss off or defame Scott. Scott was a helpful poster to many newbies on the lay of the land in Ukraine. Krimster prided himself in proving Scott wrong on that help. IIRC, both returned to the states. Scott because his wife wanted to and Krimster because he was fed up with Ukraine and most everything Ukrainian.

Scott pronounced a number of times his marriage was solid and the move was to establish the children and familiarize the wife with the US. I believe she filed DV charges on Scott inside of 6 months. It should be in the archives as Scott did return to RWD with the story

[Eduard]

Yes, he was ScottinCrimea! If I  remember correctly his wife called for police to protect her from his "abuse" I guess. I do not believe in an overnight transformation in an abuser, so i concluded he was used as a mule.

As you know i had to kiss a frog too before i met my prince -charming. So i was thinking what could help me to avoid the mistake. I think if instead of justifying the strange gestures in behavior of my first fiancee, i was focusing on deciding whether i could happily live with those behaviors, i would have avoided  the mistake. For example, if a woman seems somewhat rude to you , do not justify it as cultural differences or other excuse, but think if you can happily live with a rude person. If yes, fine. If not, move on.

I agree with everything you wrote. I've written many times on these fora that women/people in general don't change as soon as they cross the US border.