Need advice on my situation

[Vasilisa]

Vasilisa

Money should be well spend.   For example, if a girl wants a $5,000 Louis Viutton handbag, and a non-wealthy man worked very hard to buy it for her, and how long will she be happy with that handbag?

I agree that money should be spend.
But speaking about materialistic and non-materialistic girls remember that the RW you are dating will be a little bit more materialistic than average RW and pay attention to the salary/how willing the man to pay,etc.
The explanation is simple. She is moving to a different country, maybe with her kid/s and it will take time to be able to provide herself and the child financially on her own and it's important to see if the man will be able to support them and provide them with a decent life style when she is settling down and there is no family/friends around.

Another thing is why the woman decided to look for a husband abroad: there should be comething more than looking for a soulmate and a sexual partner, there are plenty of RM, including married ones with who you can have sex and have nice long conversations, dance, drink, etc, but many of these men can not be seen as reliable family partners, so there should be something more, guess what? 
So, if you come to FSU countries and think that women don't pay attention to that they do pay attention, and if the woman is desperate to get out of a poor region with her child she will cook delicious things for you, and jump around you and pay everywhere and do everything to move out, but it doesn't mean she doesn't pay attention to how willing you are to support her financially.

[Vaughn]

You all are going to turn into  Americans pretty soon instead of being men.

Unfortunately for Americans, this is the perception being purveyed in the FSU, even in the media. We are cheap, inconsiderate, and greedy. We like to split the dinner bill. My wife howls with laughter when crap like this is mentioned casually, as if it were fact.
 
A very large number of us are maniacs and child abusers. When a circuit breaker is tripped, we have to call in a professional. Such is our dreadful life.   

[JayH]

Well, those were the threads of different RW and I'd say the majority of other RW there sided with them, so the conclusion is not to date RW.

It is not seen as "cheap" by many people here, the cost of the present I mean, it's a different type of mentality, more asian/middle eastern one, Russia has never been fully European/Protestant, it has always been that way, even before the Revolution of 1917, when a rich guy is expected to spend more and to buy more expensive presents, buy expensive clothes, etc. If you are well-off it's not normal to present a post-card with a cheap souvenir for BD or a wedding to close friends or relatives. People will not understand.  And you can't change the mentality, that is a part of the society where the people are raised. If the girl has traveled a lot and lived abroad and knows the details of life in and attitutude towards the money in the West she would probably understand why you didn't get her something expensive, but a regular RW would see you as a greedy person. Some young RM get into debts to impress a girl-friend giving her something really nice for her Birthday and here comes the "rich western guy" with his bottle of cheap perfume...
What I am doing is I am trying to explain you the rules of the society and you are trying to persuade me that you are not greedy, you don't have to, I understand many rules here.
I read that forum from time to time. Sometimes the girls are trying to discuss the Western rules there, to explain them, but most RW see it this way: if you don't spend a lot of money on me it means you are spending them on other girls.
 And yes, you will look cheap if you will explain Western mentality  to many young RW there.

Dave--I agree that this is a very good explanation. This has come up a lot for me-- and the more I have tried to explain the worse it sound in my head!!Understanding how FSU guys behaves is the key to understanding how FSU lady will react.

[BillyB]

When asked why they seek a woman from the FSU, many men will speak highly of RW's traditional values.
 
Klingman's woman behaved liked a traditional FSUW.  So why would some men find fault in her behavior?   I guess they are dating FSUW for something other than values.

Some men want a certain values from a woman but not others. Can't have it both ways.
 
Klingman failed on two of his dates with the same woman. What would a person think if a soldier went to war without a gun? What would a person think if their boss forgot to bring a paycheck on payday. They would lose respect for people who aren't prepared. Klingman remembers to put his pants on everyday for his own benefit but when a special day comes dating a lady, he forgets to put money in his pants to pay for dinner or if he had enough money forgets dating ettiquete to pay for the date. He'll be fortunate to get through this without having to start over.
 
With respect to women being women there are big differences among women even in the same culture. My wife and her mom think the so called strong independent women who would pay for half the expenses on a date, look and dress like a man and sometimes don't need a man at all type feminists aren't women. Although my wife lives in America, I don't see her picking up any tips from American women on how to behave or dress.

[Klangfilm]

Well, got home today after spending  5 wonderfull days with my UA girlfriend.

Talked everything through, know where we both went wrong and we both have decided to continue with our relationship.
I'm indeed lucky that she's a very smart, patient and understanding lady ...

[Shadow]

I'm indeed lucky that she's a very smart, patient and understanding lady ...

As she has screamed at you many times...
Good that you have passed this one, and I hope you will manage to go further in this. Next stop her home town?
If you need any advice, you know where to ask.

[JayH]

Well, got home today after spending  5 wonderfull days with my UA girlfriend.

Talked everything through, know where we both went wrong and we both have decided to continue with our relationship.
I'm indeed lucky that she's a very smart, patient and understanding lady ...

I am betting you were not so tardy in getting your hand on your wallet!!

[Jumper]

I am presuming she paid because the man said something like; I haven't yet changed my currency into hryvnia.

So it was just a matter of doing the FX and then paying her back.
No big deal between long time friends or business associates.

But . . . when a woman is involved . . . and she is of a different culture . . . and there are some language barriers . . . and there is some lack of knowledge of each other;

then this situation should be avoided at all costs.

Yes, at times it is tricky  for the foreign visitor to get all his ducks in a row quickly upon arrival,  but it simply must be done.

When I have encountered this situation; I have told the gal very early up front:  "We must stop on the way to the restaurant and do the FX thingy."

One of my best experiences along these lines was when the gal I was visiting first (on a WMVM trip) picked me up at airport, took me to apartment, and once inside the apartment . . . she handed me 1500 (or so) hryvina saying "you can give me the $200 when you get a chance."  But such gals are few and far between.

I don't believe that. Most i know away from the MOB scene are that way if they know you.
The caveat here is many of theses are first meetings?

My wife offered to pay for my whole first trip vacation (in country)..she was going to that area anyway.[size=78%]Of course i dint let her!! and paid for her as well..[/size]
Sure it could have been a test,but knowing her well now i'd assure you it wasn't.She simply was already emotionally invested,had the funds,  and really  wanted me to see an area that she thought i'd enjoy.
I know a RW  that did pay entirely for her now husbands stay in country as his cards dint work and yes he was unprepared. They have been married many years now.

 I'm not sure where men find so many of another mentality, Russians and Ukrainians are very generous, to a fault.Again the caveat is they are that way to trusted people they consider friends or family.(people who have likely proven their generosity the other direction as well)

 I agree in general the man should do all he can to be prepared.
however things happen.!!
It is life!! Its a great way to tell how both parties handle ADVERSITY?
and in fact the guys who do not date long enough to have a few mishaps in life and see how their significant other reacts seem foolish to me.

Anyway, it isn't actually  clear why their situation happened ?
if
 ML's  analysis is accurate, that he simply dint have local currency and it was clear to her she was simply  paying  until he could get to a exchange place.
[size=78%]Then her reaction (if she understood which is also in question) is silly at best,in any culture.[/size][size=78%]No need for excuses.[/size][size=78%]I don't  know any reasonable(key word here)  RW here, or there,  that if this  [/size][size=78%]occurred[/size][size=78%] as you portray , [/size]
with a RM  or any man, would be any kind of a big deal at all. He'd pay her back as soon as possible and she'd not let it bother her.At all.She'd give him, and their relationship , time to see if it was just a life circumstance or a character trait.


You guys do date reasonable women right?
 


The man or  woman's behaviour in difficult situations is far more important than when things are all rosey?

When life tosses out some form of drama, then I expect someone i trust be a partner in life to   to listen to a reasonable explanation of events, and react accordingly.Just as they would expect of the real man they dream of. That he would be steady, steadfast and reasonable! in any of lifes difficulty moments! right?

[size=78%]If a RW wants a real man, part of obtaining one is being a real woman, that includes being reasonable when life has its sure to happen small problems [/size]

I'm not saying its the case here, as it is indeed unclear where the misunderstandings stemmed from.
It's just my point of view *IF* MLs take on the details was accurate.

 I actually have had similar happen (not on a first date thankfully)  and it was no issue what so ever, no drama, no resentment, simply calm acceptance that things happen in life beyond reasonable measures sometimes.

RW as a generality are pragmatic, that does not equal  drama queen when any small life  event goes sideways.

If you arn't experiencing that , then time to search in some different way.

[Klangfilm]

Hello everybody,

Here's a quick update, just back from 5 wonderfull days with my girlfriend in Zaporozhye.
Met her father for the first time and spend a nice dinner with the whole family.
Going back in January for orthodox Christmas and we're starting all the administration for her Schengen visa so she can visit me & family in February.
We both feel that our relationship is growing more strong and continue to talk on Skype every day.
And I do my best to avoid the mistakes I made in the past ...

First time I used Motor Sich Kiev / Zaporozhye and back, flights were very good only the airport terminal in Zaporozhye was a let down.
Outside 3°C and inside no heat !!! 
Brussels / Kiev and back with Ukraine International Airlines was, as before, very good.

[newjason]

Good for you Klangfilm

I trust that this girl does not scream at you ?   

Or is this the same girl?

Either way,
Happiness and Joy to you both
and
Happy holidays

[Klangfilm]

Thx Jason,

It's the same girl still and were very happy together, going strong ...

[Misha]

MAN   EARNS MONEY--- WOMAN SPENDS THE MONEY !!!!

I am fortunate to have married an exception, my wife saves money and does not spend it easily 

[Shadow]

I am fortunate to have married an exception, my wife saves money and does not spend it easily 

And you spend it? 

[Misha]

And you spend it? 

Sigh, I am much more prone to impulse buying notably if it involves a nice bicycle or clothing for bicycling 

[Klangfilm]

And here's another quick update.

Spend 5 days in Zaporozhye, all is fine, my girlfriend has applied for a Schengen visa and has gotten a positive reply.
So in February she's coming 11 days to Belgium to meet with my family and to discover the country.

My trip home was normal but I sure had a trip off a lifetime getting to Zaporozhye.
Flight from Brussels was very good with UIA but then the 'fun' started.
In terminal F I helped two Belgians getting through passport & customs and showed them where to go.
Another Belgian had left them helpless standing there ... very nice indeed ...
It turned out that one of them was also going to Zaporozhye so I took him along to terminal B, we boarded our flight and off we went.
After about 40 minutes the plane returned to Boryspol because it was impossible to land in Zaporozhye through a very dense fog.
We got our bags and fortunately found a Ukrainian woman from Sweden who spoke English and translated for us what the airline rep said.
The airline was maybe going to fly on Saturday or later so we decided what to do, we took a taxi drove to the station and jumped on a train to Dnepetrovosk.
It was 8 hours in sleeping car and I could not sleep, I'm a train driver so i must to stay awake on a train when i work.
My girlfriend met us both at the station and we took a taxi to Zaporozhye.
Quite a trip !

[mies]

Klangfilm,

Summary:  Cultural clash plus man's inexperience with women.

Unless this woman has met several Western men, her dating concepts are based on dating Ukrainian men.  Thus,

                              She has been trained by UM.   

As such, she will behave differently  in key ways from women you dated in Europe.
 
You made a fatal mistake when she had to pay for the restaurant.  It is a mistake for two reasons.   First,  foreign men are expected to pay all travel expenses of UW they meet.  Second, and the primary reason, a "real man" would be prepared.  And you did it twice!!!!
 
Come on man!  There are ATMs everywhere including the airport. 
 
UW consider life difficult and they want a man who will solve problems, who knows what to do.  By not being prepared, you were more like a child.  In her four-hour absence, she probably discussed this with her niece and friends, and I am certain they considered you behavior shocking.
 
Now the drama part.  This also seems to be a mannerism with many UW, in part from their training by UM.  I have seen many a young FSUM chasing his teenage woman down a street begging for forgiveness, promising not to do that again.  It is a show more than a game, yet it is a test of the man's love.  Older FSUW are not so dramatic, yet it is still in them from their long experience with FSUM.
 
She announced that it is "over"  and you went home without an argument.  You failed.  Where's your fighting spirit?  Fight for this woman if you want her. 
 
What to do?  It is clear to me that she wants you.  The two of you must learn how to communicate or you will repeat such misunderstandings, again and again.  Be the man and write her a correctly translated letter explaining how important she is to you.  The fact that you went home and did not stay to see other women is a "plus."   Also, explain why you did not pay at the restaurant and assure her such unmanly behavior will not happen again.  But don't dwell on it. 
 
Is she worth this work?   If yes, good luck.

I wonder what the man is thinking when he invites his woman/girlfriend to the restaurant and doesn't have cash on him. Does he expect her to pay? Is this his premeditation from the start? Really. Klangfilm, if you go to the restaurant alone, do you also "forget" money at home? Or how do you deal with this situation: you are alone in the restaurant, just finished your meal, received the bill, and don't have money to pay for it. What do you do? And why couldn't you do the same when you were in the restaurant with your woman? And why can't you think ahead and be prepared to pay for things you are ordering?
I agree with Gator, this is a fatal mistake to let the (Ukrainian, or any) woman pay for you, twice, on a date. Plus very inconsiderate. Klangfilm, you've ruined 2 evenings for this woman. I know, old story, but still, I'm perplexed by some men's way of thinking.

Maybe I'm a bit of a control freak, but I am really annoyed by people who habitually are too lazy/don't bother to think through their choices/actions, and let the others pay (literally or figuratively) later for this.

[mies]

Yes, we are expected to pay all travel expenses, accomodation, food and so on {period} 

Two of my ex-girlfriends liked to pay me at a point, because they wanted to and it made them feel good.

It was an investment on their part. And a bad one, imho. Since they both are your ex's now.

[Gator]

And here's another quick update.

Spend 5 days in Zaporozhye, all is fine, my girlfriend has applied for a Schengen visa and has gotten a positive reply.
So in February she's coming 11 days to Belgium to meet with my family and to discover the country.

Klangfilm, thanks for the update.  Although you made some mistakes, it seems that for every step backwards you have managed to take two steps forward.  Your Zap UW sounds forgiving, so she must really like you.   Enjoy the time together.

[CDW]

It was an investment on their part. And a bad one, imho. Since they both are your ex's now.

Yes, true, but we are good friends now.  They weren't money-grabbing ladies. 

Men have lost their investment (including spending on their previous wives), but they have made their final investments when marrying to their women.   

Both of my ex are now married so they aren't really worried about losing their "investment"

[CDW]

Sigh, I am much more prone to impulse buying notably if it involves a nice bicycle or clothing for bicycling 

and don't spend on EPO  lol

[CDW]

I agree with Gator, this is a fatal mistake to let the (Ukrainian, or any) woman pay for you, twice, on a date.

I have to disagree with you on "any" woman.   Western women want to be treat equal as men - want equal wages, and therefore they should also pay men for the restaurants, unless of course, men have better wages than women.

[mies]

Yes, true, but we are good friends now.  They weren't money-grabbing ladies. 

Men have lost their investment (including spending on their previous wives), but they have made their final investments when marrying to their women.   

Both of my ex are now married so they aren't really worried about losing their "investment"

it isn't the custom among women in Ukraine or Russia to pay for the men. That's all what I'm trying to say. The woman may pay for her good/long-term male friend occasionally (friends pay for friends, taking turns), or as a birthday/special treat.
With the guest: the woman may pay few times (usually not in the restaurants, but will buy food and cook at home) to show hospitality. Hospitality is an important trait in Russia-Ukraine. Feeding your guests is the part of hospitality, but usually guests are fed at home, not in the restaurants.
With the western man: the woman may pay (usually a small amount, more as a symbolic gesture) to show that she isn't a gold-digger, and that she is eager to contribute into relationship, and to get extra score vs. her potential female competition, showing that she cares about the man and really likes him.
RW usually give gifts to WM, sometimes quite expensive (part of the "hospitality" ritual). But they do not pay for men in the restaurants. I can buy a $100 gift for a male friend and in my culture it is normal/common thing to do, but if the very same man makes/demands/expects me to pay $100 in the restaurant where he invited me to dine - I will feel offended.

The gift is different. Gift is a planned expense. When the guest is coming, a FSUW usually develops a "hospitality package" budget, along with the elaborate plan. This budget includes gifts, food/drinks to put into the fridge if the guest is staying in her home, sight-seeing, and many other things. So even if the gift costs $100 - it is in the budget.
When the man comes, invites woman to the restaurant and suddenly asks her to pay for the restaurant too, - this isn't in her budget, it's a substantial expense over her budget limit. She doesn't go the the restaurants, it is a significant expense for her, and she definitely wasn't planning it now, since she already spent much preparing her "hospitality package." Hence, such restaurant "surprises" are really unpleasant on many levels. The man is inconsiderate and causes many worries to the woman.

Do you have a habit of going to the restaurants at home without money? Then why should you have such habit on your foreign trips?

[mies]

I have to disagree with you on "any" woman.   Western women want to be treat equal as men - want equal wages, and therefore they should also pay men for the restaurants, unless of course, men have better wages than women.

Well, when the woman has equal wage, she pays in the restaurant her portion of the bill, if they are going out as pals/friends (not date). I go out a lot with WM and WW, in all honesty, have not seen once the woman paying the total bill: for herself and for the man. Even when they have identical wages. Unless they are long-term friends or colleagues, and the man paid the previous time. Usually it goes like this: man bought tickets for the concert for himself and several friends, friends buy drinks for him. The cost of the drinks roughly compensates the price of the tickets. Or friends go out every week together, one week the man pays total bill, next week the woman says "you paid last time, let me pay it now."

I think, usually the custom is "the person who invites to the restaurant covers the bill." If two people decide to go to the restaurant and provide each other company - then they split the bill.

http://artofmanliness.com/2010/10/04/the-art-of-the-dinner-date/

[CDW]

Well, when the woman has equal wage, she pays in the restaurant her portion of the bill, if they are going out as pals/friends (not date).

My mother and my grandmother also paid for their husbands when going out to restaurants!!!

Not only for pals/friends !!!

[mies]

The letting her pay was most likely you not having change, but this happening twice is for her an indication you are not planning things ahead, or you are short on money. This, added to the hurt pride of a woman having to pay for a man, means she got upset. Now in most cases such a mood will pass in a couple of hours and after that things will return to normal.

absolutely correct. I return to normal mood after some time and "forgive", but I never forget. In future, I either make sure that this person always can pay for whatever he's planning on ordering, or that this person pays for themselves separately. Or I avoid situations in which any joint spending are involved. "Concert? Oh, I already bought my ticket, here is the link where you can buy yours." "Trip to XXX? Yes, I already have my tickets. Didn't you buy yours yet?"
Or, if I really like this person, I plan jointly only the types of activities for which I feel comfortable covering the total bill. Interestingly, I do know some men who "forget the money," but none of my female friends have this character flaw. Females whom I know never "forget" to pay for themselves.