Not your normal age-gap discussion

[ECOCKS]

A buddy of mine (another TEFL teacher) raised a question with me the other day which I find interesting, I thought I'd share it with the forum for discussion.

He's early 50's, been overseas a few years (1 year in Korea and nearly 4 years in Ukraine) and is in a relationship with a 28 year old (24 year age gap). Knowing my feelings on age gaps he suggested that this was still all good since:

* He had fully disclosed he had no intention of marrying her from the beginning.

* She well knows his age (not faking it or anything) and is unconcerned.

* Neither of them are "players", both apparently consider the relationship to be monogamous. He's confident that there are no boyfriends out there, has met and knows all the family.

* They have lived together for right at 2 years now. Of course he pays the lion's share of expenses but she shops with her own money for food at times, pays an occasional utility bill and doesn't sound demanding. They vacationed at an all-inclusive resort in Turkey and did a Shengen into Poland so travel doesn't seem to be a problem. They are, to all intents and purposes, married without the paperwork.

The new wrinkle he raised is that she is wanting to have a child.

The most interesting part of this is that they seem to regard this as a permanent setup. He and I talk about whether he will eventually shift to another country but he's considering that Ukraine may become his permanent home as well. When we talk about things between them (not all that often but we've had a couple of personal conversations on the topic) he believes she's totally committed to the arrangement and including the having a child out of wedlock.

Despite my strong feelings on the age-gap issue I find myself regarding this as a reasonable, if not too normal, relationship. It wouldn't work in the US, Canada or UK due to visa issues but if you're buying into the one world concept of being citizens of Earth rather than being all tied into your country, maybe they have something here.

Thoughts?

[Faux Pas]

My thoughts;

I'm not anti large gap but, certainly don't recommend it either. My feelings on your contemporary is, these are two grown adults. Sure he is a lot more grown than her but from your description, she only wishes to have a baby from dude. If he's agreeable, who's business is it but theirs? They're not married, he's an ex-pat and apparently she is aware he could be gone at anytime. If he wishes to comply with her wishes, power to them both.

Do you think this lady might harbor a hope that having his baby will be a squeeze play into marriage? From the brief description it doesn't sound like it.

[GoodOlBoy]

* He had fully disclosed he had no intention of marrying her from the beginning.

I am wondering what intentions she disclosed at the beginning of the relationship? 
 

The new wrinkle he raised is that she is wanting to have a child.

ECOCKS, I think the young lady just wants to have a "happy family" with your friend. I don't see anything nefarious about her behavior. She is acting and behaving like a normal 28 yo RW.
 
When I started this adventure I was 46 almost 47 yo. I had several late 20 something yo RW writing me and talking about wanting to have children.
 
Biological clock maybe?? 

Maybe she is starting to feel that 30 y "old maid" stigma thingy?? 
 
I remember when Marina first explained that ridiculous notion to me. I almost laughed into tears. But they actually believe it over in Russia. Sadly this stigma is brainwashed into them by society and also by RM.
 
GOB
 
PS... Just curious, was she ever a student of his?

[OlgaH]

When I started this adventure I was 46 almost 47 yo. I had several late 20 something yo RW writing me and talking about wanting to have children.
 
Biological clock maybe?? 

Maybe she is starting to feel that 30 y "old maid" stigma thingy?? 
 
I remember when Marina first explained that ridiculous notion to me. I almost laughed into tears. But they actually believe it over in Russia. Sadly this stigma is brainwashed into them by society and also by RM.
 
GOB
 
PS... Just curious, was she ever a student of his?

The other side is a myth all the Western men are domesticated, family oriented, loving and wanting children.  So, women's talks about having family and children also could be a bait. I recall an incident shared by one woman. She herself did not want to have any children, but she fell into that hype about WM and when she got into contact with a man after some time she started to talk about her desire to have a child trying to get more of his attention. But he wrote back that he had a grown son and did not want to have any more babies, he just wanted a life partner to live, travel and so on, so he had a vasectomy, and she had to look for somebody else to have children with     She kicked herself.... she just loved traveling 

[BC]

The new wrinkle he raised is that she is wanting to have a child.

The most interesting part of this is that they seem to regard this as a permanent setup. He and I talk about whether he will eventually shift to another country but he's considering that Ukraine may become his permanent home as well. When we talk about things between them (not all that often but we've had a couple of personal conversations on the topic) he believes she's totally committed to the arrangement and including the having a child out of wedlock.

Ed,

Looks like they are surviving the test of time.  Marriage? Why ruin a good thing.. LOL

The only aspects I would be worried a bit about is his permanent transition to living in another country and the major factor a fathering a child at 50+ years.  Assume fiances are in order and would provide support in case of early demise.

[GoodOlBoy]

The only aspects I would be worried a bit about is his permanent transition to living in another country and the major factor a fathering a child at 50  years.

Yeah and what kind of health is he in?
Expats have been known to die of illnesses in Ukraine.
 
GOB

[OlgaH]

It is also about what he wants in his 50s. I think the child will eventually lead to an official marriage. Does he really want to have a baby in his 50s and an official marriage? and how he looks at his marriage in perspective when he will be in his 60s and she in her late 30s?

[ECOCKS]

Some of the questions:

* Her intentions. I sort of don't have a clue since we never really discussed this as something she said. I know his feeling is that he disclosed it on the front end and feels she "accepted" it after all their discussions. But I suspect they were all phrased from the starting point of him, as in:

"I am not going to......"

"My intention is to......."

And that sort of thing. I never met her (when I was over there) but I have asked him pointedly (you know how I am) whether he believes she would wear him down over time and they would marry. He says there has never been an indication that this was back on her mind other than occasional joking that they are "married" in their minds which is more important than the law.

If it matters to anyone's thinking he is American, has a grown son just a tad younger than her and I know the son went to visit them a year or so ago.

* Is the baby potential bait? He doesn't feel so. When he told me I wondered the same thing and he said she expects "them" to raise the child but apparently assumes he will stay responsible. They talk about being old(er) together. I've never asked him any of the harsher joking questions about wheeling his chair around or spooning his kasha into him or anything.

Another BTW: He's basically agreeable on this whole thing. They are acting just like any married couple, this isn't some girlfriend/boyfriend negotiation.

Oh, GOB, yes, she was a student of his when they first met. I assume her lessons are free now. And, no, it didn't start as a "taking it out in trade" sort of thing......

I've seen her on the Skype screen and hear her in the background. She's attractive in the physical sense, seems pleasant enough and her English is pretty good but not exceptionally so.

* His health seems okay although he and I were in total agreement about the low standards of healthcare over there. I sort of assume most American men are good to at least 80 unless they have cancer or heart disease. It was briefly mentioned that he would be in his mid-70's when the kid finished university.

On that note, he was discussing our understanding/belief/suspicion that if he fully acknowledges paternity and has "custody" of the child growing up that they will be eligible for a US passport and other "benefits". One specific thing he wanted me to check on for him was whether his SS survivor's benefits would be assignable to the child (I think so but need to confirm with an actual SS employee). If her goal IS totally focused on her child's future blue passport and financial security I am not so sure that is such a terrible thing given the happiness I know the guy generally has and the way he says she feels about everything.

If you're playing the "long game" for 20+ years what is the reality?

[Globetrotter]

I would think he has a better chance than some, and so be it.  I assune he understands the risks, but if his risk/reward meter is in use, he should do as he sees fit.

[GoodOlBoy]

I agree with GT and FWIW... at least we are not discussing a relationship with a Ukrainian teenager. 
 
GOB
 

[Slumba]

I think the current policy requires a letter or form, plus copy of birth certificate, to be given to local US Embassy within 6 months of birth.  After that the kid has until 18 to decide which citizenship to claim.

[ML]

Once the child is in the picture, a marriage is almost certain  to follow at some point.

Because, aside from SS for the child, he will come to the reasonable conclusion that it would be best for her to be eligible for widow's SS also.  Of course this will also come up in time, even if no child involved.

Then there is the entire issue of actually getting his own SS while living in Ukraine.
This  has been discussed here before.

Then there is the issue of the best medical care possible, which everyone wants for their child. 

And medical care for a pregnant woman.

And medical care for an aging  man.

So where is the best medical care?

A slippery slope from  which  there will be no turning back.

[BC]

I think the current policy requires a letter or form, plus copy of birth certificate, to be given to local US Embassy within 6 months of birth.  After that the kid has until 18 to decide which citizenship to claim.

http://travel.state.gov/law/family_issues/birth/birth_593.html

[ECOCKS]

I think the current policy requires a letter or form, plus copy of birth certificate, to be given to local US Embassy within 6 months of birth.  After that the kid has until 18 to decide which citizenship to claim.

We looked at it last week on the State Dept site.

Basically the US parent has to acknowledge paternity by "legitimizing" the birth prior to age 16 and have physical custody for a portion of the under-18 years. There is nothing said about a 6 month period after birth (probably due to the miracle of DNA testing). It would seem obvious though that doing it sooner rather than later would be better.

From US Citizenship and Immigration Services:

To qualify as a “child” for purposes of this section, the person must be unmarried.  Also, a person who was born out of wedlock (meaning that the parents were not married at the time of the person’s birth), must be “legitimated” while under the age of 16 and while in the legal custody of the legitimating parent. See section 101(c)(1) of the INA.  Finally, a stepchild who has not been adopted does not qualify as a child under this section.

[Eduard]

I think that as long as there are no ulterior motives even a wide age gap can work if people love each other and feel comfortable and happy together. Just a few examples:
I have a cousin (male) in Ukraine who is married to a woman who is 30 years younger than him and they have a small child together. They are very happy together.
I know a couple who lives in St. Pete, FL. He is American who married a Tatar girl who is 40 years younger than him. I haven't seen them for a Few years now but the last time I saw them they had been together for 11 years and looked really happy. He really treated her like a princess and she really looked happy and acted truly loving toward him. She does have Epilepsy and he takes care of her as she takes care of him.
My other cousin's (in Moscow) ex-husband married a woman who is 20 years younger and they have been together for about 15 years now. Also have a child together.
I have a AM friend who is married to an AW and their age gap is 20 years. I know them for about 15 years, they are happy together and have 2 kids who are as old as his grandkids.
I'm 52 and my wife is 32, also 2 small kids and no issues with the exception  that she wishes I'd grow up sometime soon (but I refuse! LOL).

So I think it's possible, all depends on the people involved. Generally the odds are against you when there is a wide age gap but if you look at each individual case you will find some very happy couples.

[Chicagoguy]

I knew a man and woman who were both good friends of our family. They had a fairly long and happy marriage. When married he was about 35 and SHE  was about 60. 

[ECOCKS]

You know, I really haven't been so intrigued by the age gap aspect of this as I was by the concept that they were in a monogamous, "near"-permanent, living together situation involving an expat and younger woman. Then there's the unexpected curve of the child being thrown in for good measure. While it's common to run into expats who date around (particularly the TEFL backpackers in Thailand, Korea & Japan) and you occasionally see some retired "old goats" (especially former military guys) that are trying to be like a character in a movie, most older ones eventually settle in, go native and marry. He was adamant that this wouldn't happen to him.

I'll bring up the point about the widow's potential benefit. When we were talking about the paternity and possible citizenship issue, it was because of some posts on another site I had done about the child's benefit in this situation. Since it doesn't depend on marriage, we didn't even consider about the woman as a "survivor" also. He was wanting to be sure he understood what would be the situation if something happened to him.

When I first met him he really was adamant that he didn't intend to remarry even though he was equally determined not to be seen as a player either. It's been interesting to hear how this progressed for him.

Maybe not being married takes the pressure off at least as far as reducing the stress he feels. Maybe her too but that seems odd since they stayed in her country. While he is around her family a good deal, I wonder what the parents really think. I'm kind of amazed and wary about her but haven't been feeling like putting him on the spot by asking something as bold as, "So, she's really prepared to NEVER be married?"

Takes all kinds.

[Misha]

The woman likely knows that sooner or later all expats go home, no matter how fervently they claim otherwise 

[Faux Pas]

The woman likely knows that sooner or later all expats go home, no matter how

fervently they claim otherwise

 

Now where in the scenario was the subject fervently claiming anything at all?

[Misha]

 


Now where in the scenario was the subject fervently claiming anything at all?

It is merely a general observation. Even those expats who say they are there for life, invariably move back.

[IAmZon]

The woman likely knows that sooner or later all expats go home, no matter how fervently they claim otherwise

Is this SUCH A MOTIVATION with Ukrainian women? 


I Colombia, for example, a woman would much rather STAY in her home town - albeit a nicer neighborhood.   I don't really want to live in the USA full time.  I would think Europe is a greater draw ...

[Faux Pas]

It is merely a general observation. Even those expats who say they are there for life, invariably move back.

But you're taking a left turn from the topic and injecting pure conjecture of a general observation. The guy has been there 5 years, now planning a baby. It would seem he is keeping his options open but nothing to indicate he's heading home. Many ex-pats never go home

[Misha]

But you're taking a left turn from the topic and injecting pure conjecture of a general observation. The guy has been there 5 years, now planning a baby. It would seem he is keeping his options open but nothing to indicate he's heading home. Many ex-pats never go home

A few don't go home, it is true, sadly because of early deaths 

[ECOCKS]

It is merely a general observation. Even those expats who say they are there for life, invariably move back.

Untrue.

I know three who have died there (one was 83) and at least a dozen who have been there 12+ years. A half-dozen are in their late 60's and early 70's and working, living and staying active. Far more than that have firmly-rooted businesses worth millions and own multiple properties, have their families and children there. Several no longer go back for visits.

[ECOCKS]

 


Now where in the scenario was the subject fervently claiming anything at all?

Correct about this guy and also generally untrue. He mentions every now and then that e wouldn't mind going to China while he still can. Whether she can get in there or not I wouldn't know. I never really asked what her work exactly is but I'm guessing he would have mentioned if she could qualify as a teacher.