Ice Cube's Chance in Hell ...

[Faux Pas]

An interesting issue to kick around here ...

So, I am SUPPOSE to go to Kiev, then Kharkov, then Lugansk, then Zap, then Dniper.  Or at least, that is the plan.   I have pretty damn high expectations now (or should I say, I feel no urge to compromise, or "get lucky). I do not care if I find a girlfriend or wife. Frankly, I think I could do just fine in Europe / South America generally speaking.  In fact,  I am interested in checking out South Spain.  This is really a "IF LIGHTNING STRIKES" kind of trip for me.

If you have game, you'll find women anywhere and everywhere. I still question in your search for the perfect woman and the holy grail, if you'd recognize her when you met her? 

[Eduard]

One of my friends went to a woman's house for spaghetti; he never left.

  Wow! That must have been some spaghetti!!! 

[IAmZon]

My idea of the perfect woman?  Nobody knows this...  LOL    Not even me. I think the women here (and FP) see that I have ELECTED to spend a couple years without emotional attachments, and without my hair on fire, running around trying to get married.  That was good for me, and only I am the one who can judge this.

For now, I have a very clear and strong mind on these issues (that was not the case in the past).    I already have my own answer to this question.  I just thought it interesting to hear other's thoughts.  I will not be an 'easy win.  I will not allow the woman to pressure me in only 2 - 4 days with claims, or affections.  In fact, I will not bite the apple, if I really like a woman, because she will ASSUME I am biting many apples.  This is not a problem for me.

BUT, if I feel strongly, I will change my mind without reservation.   Nothing comes from endless choosing but a overly developed "choosing process".  I have had enough choices in my life.  In truth, I am a very lucky man.

[Gator]

Somehow Rivardo's idea o perfect woman reminds me of this dating agency video...

Ranetka,
Perhaps the video will amuse some men, my serious side knows that it is true.

[IAmZon]

First leg is done now.  Bratislava, Prague, Berlin, Vienna.


Berlin was a very nice surprise.   People were friendly.   I did not feel i was in the USA with a near zero sexual chemistry in the air, far from it.  I would be happy learning some German and spending more time there.


Prague was beautiful, architecturally.  Too many tourists in too small of a place.  Subsequently, there is a peddler's mentality there.   I nice place to bring a date / wife.  Not necessarily a good place to find one.


Vienna. Magnificent.  The people have a reason to be proud.   They should find a reason to smile more.  About that, except for Berlin, there is not a lot of smiling faces here. 


Bratislava is a very charming "big / small" city.   Again, I would not have any problem staying here, and my dating life would be 100% acceptable.  The women I have met in the capital / tourist area have all been particularly friendly and smart.


OBSERVATIONS:  I think it is best to be modest and reserved when travelling to Eastern Europe.   It is best to observe aggressively, especially if one is used to the more edgy places and things.  All is not roses here.  There is corruption and a constant tendency to exploit the guy with "money" written on his forehead - sometimes the asking price is surprisingly high.

[ECOCKS]

I agree completely with your specific observations on Prague and Austria, That covers both the good place to visit with w/gf versus find one and the generally lower number of smiling faces.

That said, the "gloom factor" in Prague and Austria is nothing like that of Ukraine or points eastward.....

I agree with B's comment below that if you thought there was corruption in Prague, Germany or Austria you're in for a shock in Ukraine or Russia.

I can't speak for Slovakia but none fo the others are "corrupt" enough to comment on IMO.

[Boethius]

If you find the Czech Republic and Slovakia to be corrupt, you will be shocked when you get to Ukraine.  You may understand why so many Ukrainians wish to emigrate.

[IAmZon]

NEXT MOVE:  I ought to be in Kiev tonight.  I have been emailing three women from Elena's.   I really only am interested in meeting one.   I will be in Kiev for 6 days.   I will not hit the party scene.  I will certainly look around the city.  Mostly playing it by ear.

I do not know how many agency meetings I have.   I received my first "accepts/ no accepts" last night.  Those four meetings alone actually would justify the trip and experience for me to be 100% honest.  I am not apt to make any spontaneous decisions.  I will complete Jack's Tour - 2.5 weeks, and I am sure the time will fly. 

I have selected women with only Fair to Good to Fluent English.  I really see no use for a translator.  I am not interested in throwing a dart with a blindfold. About truthfulness of agency profiles, I do expect hype.  I do expect photo shop.  Doctor could mean "nurse"; Basic English could mean hire my sister the translator.  We will see.

I have been pretty selective in my agency requests.  For example Kharkov, I may have 1 meeting in 4 days, while in Poltova, I have 4 meetings in 2 days.   Luganst looks too good to be true, so I will wait to believe.   I do have several possibilities in Zap, and none in Dniper.  I think I may well go to the dance classes if I have too much time on my hands - that almost always does the trick.

After the tour I will still have about 20 days to kill.  Rather than returning to Kiev, I am inclined to return to whatever city I have become interested. 

( The client I have been travelling with this past week has noticed that I talked to women with a certain look and big, innocent eyes.  While I ignore more sexy women altogether.     He said, "Tim, you are different.  You like "Bambi." Hmmmm very observant. Perhaps the name of this thread should be exactly that "Hunting Bambi"   The truth of it all, is that if only stayed in this city, I have much greater than an ice cube's chance, and I expect my odds will improve dramatically in the day's and week's to come. )

[ECOCKS]

Those with salsa skills (not in the kitchen..) will find a significantly greater degree of opportunities in Ukraine.......

Take your vitamins......

[Eduard]

I think I may well go to the dance classes if I have too much time on my hands - that almost always does the trick.

That prolly is your best chance to meet somebody real

[Kuna]

Tim,

Glad you're thinking about putting the dancing idea into action.  it was one of your better ideas of getting out and having fun. 

Here's some rough direction to a dance school I saw...


When in Dnepropetrovsk you will undoubtedly end up on Most City (Moct Citi - but pronounced Moh-st)... 

If you stand at the main entry to the shopping centre and turn around...  walk diagonally across the road to the opposite corner then walk towards the right...

Before you get to European Square (which is only one block away) there is a dance studio in the building on the left hand side.  There's a few small kiosks on the street side of the footpath, and from memory there are a few steps to the left... maybe 3 or 4 at most (and strangely I think I remember them being painted green).

Was walking along there one day and heard the sound of shoes dancing on a wooden flaw and when having a peak inside I am sure I thought to myself, "Tim really need to dance here!!!!" 

[IAmZon]

After all this time, I am in fact in Kiev. 

It is big and touristy, and after touring Eastern Europe for the last week, or so, I would prefer more authentic.  I had a beer and the bar tender said there was a good house club, Crystal Palace.  But, he said that there was a 70% I would get hurt because the boys like to drink and show they are strong.  He said on Saturday night my chances go down to about 50% 50%.  That was almost enough to make me go:)

But I am tired, and want to change gears ... besides I have Prague still ringing in my ears from last weekend.

I have a couple women I could beet from Elena's Models, perhaps.  But, I have not put work in them, and am not particularly interested.

[IAmZon]

Kiev is bigger than I presumed, and not so clean.  It feels bigger to me than Berlin, in fact.  I usually spend only days in Capital cities.  I did sleep remarkably well.  I think I am finally adjusted to the time difference:)


I have noticed a couple things:
- there is not much English here (and I am in the center of Kiev ... not, a good sign for my next month)
- few smiling faces.
- This surprised me: I walked around for a couple hours and did not see many pretty women! Hmmm   In fact, I would have to say little Bratislava was far better in this regard. (let's see if this changes)


There are a couple women with whom I have exchanged emails.  I am not too terribly interested to spend time with them, so I think I will go to the museums for a couple days.  My reasoning? Ukraine is a bitch!  THIS is no place to exercise compromises for the sake of filling up a social schedule.
-

[Shadow]

Stay away from the zoo. It was nothing special the last time and I doubt it has improved.
Once you get used to it you will find that actually most things are in walking distance.
As for the women, taking in account that they have ages by 8 years you may be right. 

[Boethius]

I suggest Pecherska Lavra, St. Sophia, St. Andrew's, St. Nicholas Church, the Golden Gates, and the War Museum (never my thing, but lots of people enjoy it).

The ruling class sees no value in history, so many historic buildings have been destroyed. 

[SteveOR]

An interesting issue to kick around here ...

. . .

 But, IF I MEET A WOMAN that makes me question "here is a woman unlike the globs of women I have met over the last several years - perhaps my future wife, the mother of my children - then, how do you say to this woman - "Hey, it was great to meet and hang out over the last couple days, but my bus is taking off and I am going to a different city to take more applications?"   This does not seem very deliberative or manly to me.

The woman I want is not weak, or stupid.  She would not accept waiting in line happily.  This would plant poison seeds.  I have too much experience to not know the consequences to even the most rational and understandable situations - especially in the early days.

Alas, pulling the trigger too early, precludes all other possibilities. And, in this case we are talking 7 - 10 days before I would return to the one with home I have the most interest, and her me. Certainly, it helps that I have had NO communication with anyone before a personal meeting.   There are no artificial expectations.  Nevertheless ....

These are very good questions that are without easy answers.  How do you go from meeting to meeting with most of the ladies being very nice and some with a very good possibility of "long term compatibility"?  Do you stop there or move on to make sure?  How do you do that without hurting someone and making yourself feel and smell like something scraped off of a shoe?
 
If in your travels you find answers to these questions, I would be very interested to hear them. . .
 
 

[IAmZon]

The only answer that I came up with is in the approach.  ZERO expectations in advance.   And, treat the first meeting in real life as if it was the first email ONLY.  Let's see how we feel and communicate AFTER a short meeting, or two, and then separation. 

People fight for that which they really want.  I know my value, and it is not based in living in the USA.  So, I will not manipulate, or be manipulated, with any woman I take very seriously and respect.  And, unless my heart changes greatly (which would not be a bad thing) I am not going to fight for something that should be there in the beginning naturally.

[noelscot]

  My reasoning? Ukraine is a bitch!  THIS is no place to exercise compromises for the sake of filling up a social schedule.
-

You'll see more eye candy in Odessa than Kyiv. I hated Kyiv. In Kyiv you have to go through an underground labrynth to cross almost every street.
 
Enjoying your perspective on things. Hope your trip gets better and better. 

[ECOCKS]

After all this time, I am in fact in Kiev. 

It is big and touristy, and after touring Eastern Europe for the last week, or so, I would prefer more authentic.  I had a beer and the bar tender said there was a good house club, Crystal Palace.  But, he said that there was a 70% I would get hurt because the boys like to drink and show they are strong.  He said on Saturday night my chances go down to about 50% 50%.  That was almost enough to make me go:)

But I am tired, and want to change gears ... besides I have Prague still ringing in my ears from last weekend.

I have a couple women I could beet from Elena's Models, perhaps.  But, I have not put work in them, and am not particularly interested.

Get out of center.

Want authentic? My suggestions.....

Head for a Puzata Hata.

Authentic is great but I would still avoid the little kiosks selling meat pastries and peroshkis, you can get too authentic.

Go over to the railway station through the back door, from the Cirq.

If the river boat cruises are running today go for a 2 hour cruise (A TWO HOUR CRUISE...) on the Dnepr. Take a bottle of water and grab some meat, bread and cheese from a gastronome before you board. A bottle of wine if you want. Also take a light coat to knock down the wind. If you squint your eyes, hold your nose and catch just the right angle you can pretend you're in Paris.....

Try Fosters Pub if you can find it.

Visit Petrovka Market (primarily a book market but also other odds and ends there as well) or go over to the left bank and drop in on the Chinese Market. You'll see some real people as well as a mix of trash and practicality.

Want to see some women? Get to either Kreshatyk or Maidan metro early, pick a good seat with a view of the escalators and watch the show.

[Anotherkiwi]

You'll see more eye candy in Odessa than Kyiv. I hated Kyiv. In Kyiv you have to go through an underground labrynth to cross almost every street.
   
Enjoying your perspective on things. Hope your trip gets better and better.

Not my experience, but just my own viewpoint - maybe I just got luckier.  I saw far more in Moscow. 
 
Any particular reason you "hated" Kyiv?  I can't remember how clearly you explained it in your own thread, unless it was simply "the girl."
 
Pardon?  Where were you (seriously)?  The only real "labyrinth" I saw at a street crossing was outside the main bus station.  Even most of the metro stations seem to come up for air in a fairly logical way (apart from the one where I tried to get out into the mall at the Maidan, and ended up halfway up Kreschatyk, not knowing which way to turn!).  All the other street crossings I saw were light-controlled - maybe we were just in different parts of the city?  FWIW, I only saw one labyrinth in Odessa - opposite the main railway station.  Moscow, on the other hand, does have a LOT!
 
Seems a bit jaded to me  , but I'm sure he'll pick up once Jack has him under his wing.
 
Just keep the reports coming, Tim - they're certainly "different."

[IAmZon]

Seems a bit jaded to me   , but I'm sure he'll pick up once Jack has him under his wing.
Just keep the reports coming, Tim - they're certainly "different."

I'm sorry!  Please do not think I am being negative.  I have already had a wonderful time. However, it is true, I do think there is hype and overly realistic expectations at work in most TRs.  It is normal when you consider the viewpoint of the writer. 

I could easily imagine writing a TR back when I was writing a specific woman for a couple week's / month.  I would indeed be MORE "eager / hopeful".  I would be more inclined to fill in ALL the blanks positively (and there are always many blanks).  It is not beyond the realm of possibilities that I will be in that position again. However, in this case it will be at the end of a trip and 40 + days of more sober enjoyment / evaluation. That would be my sincere hope.

The way I have gone about things (and I mean entirely, from career adjustments to travel, to dating life- everything) has been an experiment of living. As I consider your comment, I realize it is a product of how much choice I have given myself.  Not a bad thing.

[Eduard]

Tim,
I think you'd enjoy going to the "Caribbean club" in Kiev. They mostly play Latin House music so attract a nice crowd. I've been there several times with my clients and their dates and always had a good time. It's not as fancy as "The Arena" or some others but has a nice atmosphere and you just may meet a lady there. Just make sure she is not a hooker, there are some in there.


Kiev isn't the easiest place to meet "marriage minded" women in my experience especially if you are doing it this way - basically leaving it to chance. It just may happen, one never knows but I found that chatting with many women on line first, finding a good connection with a few and then going to see/date them works extremely well. This way you already have dates set up, know a lot about each other and when you finally meet face to face it's more like meeting a good friend with romantic possibilities. At that point it's all about finding chemistry and having fun together.
I think that just hanging out and trying to pick up women can be fun too but then you really need to spend a lot of time in the country to find some one worth while.


I agree with Kiwi that Moscow has a lot more opportunities to meet women. It is about 10 times bigger than Kiev with 10 times more women and many of the women who move to Moscow from all over Russia, Ukraine, Moldova, Belarus and other FSU countries are very beautiful there. If you really want to feel like a kid in a candy store move to Moscow for a while... however you may never want to settle down  for just one woman if you live there for a prolonged period of time (Chivo is a good example). I was contemplating moving to Moscow when I was single and looking, but I knew that if I did that I would probably be single to this day just playing the field. When my dad saw me looking at all the girls in Moscow with wide eyes he said to me: "Now you understand why I never remarried after your mom and I got divorced? It's very hard to settle just for one woman when you have so many options".
I really wanted to have a family at that point of my life so I decided against moving to Moscow and just found me the right girl and brought her to FL. But Moscow truly is a single guy's paradise... Kiev can be OK too if you stay there for a while, make some local friends... but still a lot fewer choices of women.


You may still get lucky and meet a great lady so keep a positive attitude and just have fun either way!
Ed

[Faux Pas]

I'm sorry!  Please do not think I am being negative.  I have already had a wonderful time. However, it is true, I do think there is hype and overly realistic expectations at work in most TRs.  It is normal when you consider the viewpoint of the writer. 

From your descriptions and dating experience in SA, you are well outside the "norms" for type of men who write TRs. Comparisons is probably useless. I've never been to Kyiv so I don't know the female decor other than what I've read here. I have been to many other world class cities and quite honestly IMO most of them are pretty equal to eye candy visible on the streets.

My suggestion to you is don't get to busy with museums and tourist spots because you'll find well, museums and tourists. If you want to see and meet locals, go where they go and wing it. Shopping districts, restaurants or other social events.  English will be hard to find and some what constraining but you can get through it. If you are as a free spirit as you say, it'll prove easy enough for you.

[IAmZon]

GUILT BY ASSOCIATION:Fortunately, I am not a guy that is dying to go on a date. Otherwise today would have been a disaster. LOL   I spoke with two of the more attractive and older 20's on Elenas model site in Kiev today on Skype.  The conversations were mirror images of each other, and both did not go well. How long are you here for?  Where are you going?

To answer honestly, evidently throws up a big red flag. "I am looking forward to seeing your country. I have read much about it.  I am curious to learn what city I find most interesting and beautiful.  That will be the place I will spend the most time."  TRANSLATION: I am going around Ukraine leveraging the prospects of a green card to every sexy young lady I can find.  Of course, I did not put up much of a fight.  "thank you for your time and consideration ... NEXT"

All is not lost!  This is a big country, and time is my friend.  I have made significant progress on my Russian today:)  I think I have 100% more than before this day began.

[Kuna]

GUILT BY ASSOCIATION:Fortunately, I am not a guy that is dying to go on a date. Otherwise today would have been a disaster. LOL   I spoke with two of the more attractive and older 20's on Elenas model site in Kiev today on Skype.  The conversations were mirror images of each other, and both did not go well. How long are you here for?  Where are you going?

To answer honestly, evidently throws up a big red flag. "I am looking forward to seeing your country. I have read much about it.  I am curious to learn what city I find most interesting and beautiful.  That will be the place I will spend the most time."  TRANSLATION: I am going around Ukraine leveraging the prospects of a green card to every sexy young lady I can find.  Of course, I did not put up much of a fight.  "thank you for your time and consideration ... NEXT"

All is not lost!  This is a big country, and time is my friend.  I have made significant progress on my Russian today:)  I think I have 100% more than before this day began.

No one will believe you if you say you're their to see their country and to see which city is the most beautiful.

Tim,  you hit the nail on the head when you said guilt by association.

Think about the most %$#@ed up people we've seen in here... they're the ones the girls talk about if/when they meet them in Ukraine.

Unfortunately,  the fruitcakes that we have to put up with here are what they are most likely to expect early in conversation - until you prove you are different.  They are not even only in RWD... I met a few blokes one night in O'Briens who'd been on a trip to Odessa... One struck out... one was "in a relationship"... both had picked up hookers the night before and were going back for more on the night I met them.

Don't expect the women you meet to expect you to be "normal" on first meeting.

IMHO you'd be better off telling them the truth if/when meeting women from dating/marriage sites...

"You've heard this myth of the "perfect Ukrainian wife" and you're curious but not convinced.  You're in no hurry to marry but you are interested in seeing different cities in Ukraine.  You're not there just to date women, and you're definitely not there seeking to marry during this trip... but if they want to meet for tea and cake it would be pleasant for you to meet them...."

Spin it any way you want but if you tell them you're interested in seeing which city is most beautiful they will think you're just lying (like the odd-balls that go there)...  not many will consider their city to be beautiful, and I think it would be a rare women in Kiev who thinks any other city in Ukraine is beautiful.

Just my thoughts...


btw... if you're in Kiev go to Besarabsky Market... On Kreshatik up near Arena.  Without promising you anything other than an interesting walk through some local markets I'd imagine you'll see more beautiful women there than you will hanging outside of the street-side kiosks.  I've been there a few times (usually stay up that way) and have seen MANY beautiful women picking up the daily essential groceries there.  It's a bit more expensive that the usual shop I think...  maybe a reason for a different type of woman shopping there.

Also,  of course you'll have an interesting walk along Kreshatik on a Sunday.  It's closed to traffic and people promenade up and down...  Most times I've been there they tend to have big events down the Independence Square end - and on those occasions you'll definitely see many attractive GIRLS out... but of course you're looking for a woman, not a girl.  :-)



Oh,  btw...  indeed "play it cool" but not too cool.  I gave my wife the line that I was in no hurry to marry and she agreed to "stay friends" and only later did I find out she thought I was nice but not interested in a relationship... 

Many things you say will be taken literally... some things you never say will be implied because of what they THINK about foreigners holidaying in Ukraine...  just be careful not to be too cool for school!