Unrealistic Expectations - Women - Entitlement Mentality

[calmissile]

Of the hundreds of women that I have corresponded with over the past year (Ukraine), this was a unique case.  I am wondering how prevelant it is with FSU women.  Your experiences in this vein?

I was sent an unsolicated 'freind' request on one of the free dating sites by this lady.  She is 39, a store manager and has two teenage daughers.  She is about a 7 on the beauty scale, nice looking  but not a knockout.  Her profile indicated that she knew English and wants to relocate to the UK or the USA.

We chatted on Skype daily for over 3 weeks and she seemed very serious.  Her English was very good and indicated she was taking English lessons 3 nights a week.  Her two daughters are 15 and 16 and I later learned were both in college and would not graduate for 2 years.  While the thought of the uplanned expense of putting 2 kids through college was an issue, nevertheless I decided to continue the correspondence.

It finally reached a point where I wanted to discuss the mechanics of how to deal with the childrens education if we were to build a family together.  In probing the options of what is best for the children and their education, I inquired if there was a possibility of the kids finishing college in Ukraine while living with their father, and then coming to the US after graduation.     

Dumb me.....  I quickly learned that you NEVER suggest seperating the lioness from her cubs. 
She made it clear that she is not going anywhere without her kids.  The lioness quickly recomposed herself and the conversations continued as before.  She had inquired about what kind of work she could do in the US and the conversations went back to small talk for a while.

After more probing of her expectations, she finally explained her real requirements for a husband.  It was enlightening!   She has worked hard all her life and is tired and 'worn out' (at age 39).  She is looking for a man that will take care of her and her children and she does not want to have to work any more!!!

It took 3 weeks of daily Skype chat to finally drag it out of her.  What she is looking for is a 'Sugar Daddy' that will support her and her kids, while she sits at home.

The correspondence ended when I told her that I did not think I could meet her requirements.  Her response was "That's OK,  I will find my man".

This case made me think about the discussions on the forum about the "Entitlement" attitude of some FSU women as well as a new wrinkle that I had not thought about before.....

How many of these women on the dating sites are not serious about finding a husband, but instead are just throwing the bait into the water, and seeing if a "Sugar Daddy" happens to bite?


Have others found many of the FSU women to fall into this category?
Needless to say, if it were not for an extensive period on Skype to extract this, it could have become a wasted trip.  She had invited me to come and stay with her and the family this summer.

Any similar experiences?

[Miri22]

I for one don't see the issue of a woman who wishes to be a homemaker. Children or not, running a home (meals, cleaning, bookkeeping) is a huge burden lifted. If a person finds joy in that & you can afford it, whats the problem?

[SMS60]

If a man comes up against a situation like this. After she gives her laundry list of what she wants. You then ask her what she brings to the table and what you would expect as realistic for the family.

You see this in many profiles. They have big list but don't say a word about what they bring to relationship. Be wary of "this is what I want" and nothing of "this is what I can do".

The sincere women know they must bring something to the relationship besides sex.

[pitbull]

If a man comes up against a situation like this. After she gives her laundry list of what she wants. You then ask her what she brings to the table and what you would expect as realistic for the family.

You see this in many profiles. They have big list but don't say a word about what they bring to relationship.
The sincere women know they must bring something to the relationship besides sex.

Excuse me, she is 39, our hero is 68 according to the profile. She brings a 30-year age difference to the table. Sorry, you have to pay for that, dear Calmissile. Entitlement attitude, my ass...
You want your wifey to work - go for the 60 y.o. AW
 

[Spoon]

I for one don't see the issue of a woman who wishes to be a homemaker. Children or not, running a home (meals, cleaning, bookkeeping) is a huge burden lifted. If a person finds joy in that & you can afford it, whats the problem?

There's no problem at all, if that's what you are seeking and the lady's profile or at least early conversation is quite clear she is seeking to be a stay at home Mum or housewife.

But I think in this case she misled for 3 weeks about her true intentions and expectations from a husband. If it doesn't suit both parties it's a wasted period of time and a potential wasted trip.

Unfortunately I believe the 'entitlement' attitude is becoming more prevalent these days amongst all women, including those from the FSU.

[SMS60]

Excuse me, she is 39, our hero is 68 according to the profile. She brings a 30-year age difference to the table. Sorry, you have to pay for that, dear Calmissile.
You want your wifey to work - go for the 60 y.o. AW

Perfect definition for the title of thread.
 

[happyandstable]

Excuse me, she is 39, our hero is 68 according to the profile. She brings a 30-year age difference to the table. Sorry, you have to pay for that, dear Calmissile.
You want your wifey to work - go for the 60 y.o. AW
 

 I have to disagree with this one. A 30-year age difference is worth less then sex. If this is all she is bringing to the table it is a poor offering. If one is looking for a equal relationship then there is the matter of personal responsibility. If they can not take care of themselves they sure won't be able to take care of you. Equal rights mean equal responsibility. A truly equal partnership means both are "Working" together toward the same goal, meaning neither is looking for a free lunch. I for one do not need a Maid, Laundry service, or Chief. I can do all those things for myself. What I value is a true life partner and friend.

[Lily]

What you call the 'entitlement attitude', Russians would call a proper traditional position of man and woman. There is a Russian saying, "The husband has to be like a father to his wife, the wife has to be like a crown on her husband's head'. That means, a woman is naturaly entitled to every kind of support and protection from her man, like a father would do to his daughter, and the man is naturally entitled to everything that would make him proud of  his wife.
Some men here look for a traditional wife, why would they be surprised when faced with a quintessential traditional attitude?

[pitbull]

I have to disagree with this one. A 30-year age difference is worth less then sex. If this is all she is bringing to the table it is a poor offering. If one is looking for a equal relationship then there is the matter of personal responsibility. If they can not take care of themselves they sure won't be able to take care of you. Equal rights mean equal responsibility. A truly equal partnership means both are "Working" together toward the same goal, meaning neither is looking for a free lunch. I for one do not need a Maid, Laundry service, or Chief. I can do all those things for myself. What I value is a true life partner and friend.

Are you kidding? Seeking an "equal relationship" with an attravtive woman 30 years younger from a developing country? Assuming that she should leave her two teenage kids behind cause the it's cheaper for the old Romeo? And then work (most probably in a minimum wage dirty job) upon arrival? All that for the privilige of sleeping with a 70-y.o. and a not so distant future of changing adult diapers? Yeah, we are taking about unrealistic expectations and a sense of entitlement here-a typical AM babyboomer mentality.

Disclaimer: I'm a firm believer in equal relationships and am living one

[Krassie]

First of all children do not go to a college at the age of 15 and 16. All they do , they attend general school. As a mother she wants them graduate from school first. This lady raises her kids on her own , and it  was very inappropriate to mention the father. In most of the cases after the divorce mother and father don't stay  friends.
Second, it's huge age difference. You want her to go to work, and she wants to take care of her kids , be a housewife, which is a very big job too.                                                                                      Third, if you a want to get a woman that young, you need to be a good provider for her and her kids, otherwise there are plenty of younger men in this world.
Fourth, Are you looking for a wife, girlfriend or want to adopt a daughter with her kids?
Fifth, you don't need to blame her. She is the mother and probably, the only provider for them.
Sixth, you must be more specific who you are looking for. You knew that she had two children  when you talked to her on Skype.  Did you think she would leave them and go to your country and get well paid job right away?  ... Be realistic!!!

[ECOCKS]

I think that you nailed it as what we would call an entitlement mindset.

The feedback from Lilly and PB tell you that, yes, deep down, this is what they want.

Is it cultural? Maybe, maybe not. Your additional anecdote that she was tired of working hard and was worn out is equally telling of their belief. This is the backfire of the process. You went to them so they feel they have that "Queen" card to play on you as needed.

It's amazing to me how many guys will still keep trying to rationalize this as anything other than it is. Also, that so many cannot seem to understand that it is there in her purse for use as needed.

[pitbull]

I think that you nailed it as what we would call an entitlement mindset.

The feedback from Lilly and PB tell you that, yes, deep down, this is what they want.

Excuse me, this the polar opposite understanding of what my "feedback" suggests.

[Miri22]

With a 30 year age gap I would hope the man freely offers to allow the woman to stay home if she wishes. Either that or he better be a confirmed (not just in his own mind) romantic stallion in bed and that may still not be enough.

[Daveman]

I have to admit that I don't see this so much as the "entitlement attitude" but more of a goals incompatibility, however, adding two teenage girls to the mix with the idea that it's the new husband's obligation to pay for their education would be in the realm of unrealistic.


 Yeah, if she wants to sit on her butt (when she's not shopping) and bring nothing but expense to the relationship, it's a different story. Who knows exactly what this particular woman envisions?


"Traditional" situations are just fine with me as are modern ones --- as long as both are bringing/giving.

[ECOCKS]

Excuse me, this the polar opposite understanding of what my "feedback" suggests.

You have your opinion, I have mine. No disrespect is meant towards you at all.

I simply feel that this is a factor in a lot more than a few of the WM/FSUW marriages that take place.

[ECOCKS]

I have to admit that I don't see this so much as the "entitlement attitude" but more of a goals incompatibility, however, adding two teenage girls to the mix with the idea that it's the new husband's obligation to pay for their education would be in the realm of unrealistic.


 Yeah, if she wants to sit on her butt (when she's not shopping) and bring nothing but expense to the relationship, it's a different story. Who knows exactly what this particular woman envisions?


"Traditional" situations are just fine with me as are modern ones --- as long as both are bringing/giving.

I don't think so Dave.

You seem to be seeing it as a one-off situation rather than one we've heard in how many threads? How many anecdotes? How many jokes?

My belief is that this is a shared mindset across a great many FSUW. Whether it is due to politics, family tradition, confused realities or whatever, it comes up a lot.

Remember that at the heart of every stereotype is something, sometimes big, sometimes small, that started that perception on its way to folklore.

[Spoon]

What you call the 'entitlement attitude', Russians would call a proper traditional position of man and woman. There is a Russian saying, "The husband has to be like a father to his wife, the wife has to be like a crown on her husband's head'. That means, a woman is naturaly entitled to every kind of support and protection from her man, like a father would do to his daughter, and the man is naturally entitled to everything that would make him proud of  his wife.
Some men here look for a traditional wife, why would they be surprised when faced with a quintessential traditional attitude?

My Wife puts a different spin on this saying (or perhaps it's another famous Russian saying)
She tells me 'the husband is the Head of the family, but the Wife is the neck that turns the head'

As subtle as a sledgehammer I guess

[Chicagoguy]

I think Calmissle could have made a big mistake. As someone in a similar situation but happily married I  am out on a limb. I have no medical  insurance for my younger wife. I have mentioned before the possibilty of huge medical bills if something goes wrong. And if these children decided to go to college later when you are living on a pension it can be difficult [ but I do not know his situation]. Many stay at home moms go back to work at this point to help with the bills.
At least the woman was honest and he had to decide what to do with the truth. It can be a tough decision. But I didn't like her cavalier atitude at the end. No tears. Just "I will find another man".

[Gator]

She brings a 30-year age difference to the table.  Sorry, you have to pay for that...

" Sorry, you have to pay for that" is a  classic example of entitlement.   It is no different than the following:   

RW:  "Give me money."
AM:  "Why should I give you money?"
RW:  "Because I am young and beautiful."

Calmissile, you will encounter this attitude frequently in the FSU.   I believe Ecocks is saying the same.

These women do not want to be with you.   They reluctantly accept being with you because you pay.   Such is not beautiful, agree?


It is far better to pursue women whose goals and values are aligned with yours, and who share loving feelings. You can find women who seek a relationship that satisfies their whole being, to drink from a single vessel - you.   Stay with them rather than these bloodsuckers.   

With regard to women and their children, you will play second fiddle to the children in the beginning.  That is the way it is.......in the beginning.  However, if you do not become an equal player in the family dynamics after three trips with the mother and kids, walk away - they really do not want you in their inner circle other than be the provider. 
 
Notice that I said equal player. If you expect to be the prima donna, don't date women with children.   Maybe don't date at all. 
 
 

[Lily]

My Wife puts a different spin on this saying (or perhaps it's another famous Russian saying)
She tells me 'the husband is the Head of the family, but the Wife is the neck that turns the head'

As subtle as a sledgehammer I guess

This is a different saying, yes.

[calmissile]

It is amazing how a simple question or two migrates into irrelevant comments about age difference, changing diapers, and the apparent jealosy some people have about a man marrying a younger women.

My post asked two questions, 1. The 'entitlement' mentatily and how much it is present.  2.  How many women in this kind of situation are just throwing the bait in water hoping to find a "Sugar Daddy".

Let me clear up some assumptions some you have made without any reason to do so:

1.  I am not looking for a 30 year age gap.  I did not seek out this woman, she sought me out.  She knew my age and still chose to explore a romance with me.
GOT IT?  She knew the age range I was seeking and knew she was well outside that range.

2.  The expense of putting 2 kids through college that were not my own kids is something most men would not even consider, regardless of how 'hot' the mother is.  There would have to something very extrordinary about the women for most men to accept this added responsibiliy.

3.  Base upon all the imformation on the forums, as well as what is published in E-Books and elsewhere, it seems to be a pretty well established opinion that women over 35 with children are considered "not desireable" and have a very difficult time finding a husband.  If this is true, as reported then this women would find it doubly difficult to find a husband especially with two college age kids.  What is she bringing to the table other than a 39 year old average body and a lot of expense and responsibility for a new husband?   There are thousands of women in the FSU that are available without this baggage!  This is what led to wonder if she is simply throwing the bait out in hopes of finding a "Sugar Daddy" or sucker.

4.  The comment about her kids not being in college........... this is what she told me.  I cannot refute it.  I don't know why she would lie about it.

5.  The comment about taking her kids away and leaving them behind is misleading.  It was only temporarily, until they graduated.  It was also trying to explore options that allow her to have her "Sugar Daddy" and have the kids follow after graduation.  She expects someone to wait for 2 years and then determine if you are compatible?

6. Lily.... I do not disagree with your comments, but the 'traditional marriage' (at least in America) is more often practiced in first marriages, or marriages that have no children.  In most cases, I think it is still practiced among young Americans for their first marrige..  What is different from what you describe is the approach many if not most Americans practice for later marriages.  It is quite common for each party to take the position.... what is each person bringing to the table.  Once a man or woman has worked hard all their life and acquired some wealth, and/or a home, they are much more realistic about the financial expectations of each party to contribute to the well being of the family.  Sex and beauty becomes a much lesser part of it. Perhaps the propoganda FSU women have been led to believe is causing them to think that beauty and age differences outweighs the common sense of financial responsibility and planning for the future.  You might have a point that FSU women expect men to adhere to  this traditional marriage custom for later marriages.

7. The idea that it is such a tough job being a wife and homemaker  in America (without kids) is just plain BS.  Most of us men that have large homes, no maids or cooks, are able to take care of the house, do our own cooking and maintenance, and still have time for full time jobs.  In the days without dishwashers, vacuum cleaner, washing clothes by hand on washboards, etc. that may have been true, but it has not been that way for a long time.  You can see the result it has had on women in recent decades that have stayed home.  Fat and not caring about their appearance!!

8.  The assumption that my future wife would be saddled with a lot of house chores and work her fingers to the bone at home is laughable.  Since I am fortunate enough to do most of my paid work from my home, with only intermittent business trips, I would expect to continue doing most of the housework expecially if she were working.  It is no big deal, including the maintenance of a 3200 ft/sq home with pool and spa.  I also point this out in my letters so that they do not anticipate a life like some of the posters have assumed.

9.  There is nothing I can say to refute the jealosy of those that do not like the idea of a man marrying a younger women.  Our choice is to remain single and enjoy the benefits of dating them when needed and not marrying them.  Actually, I would prefer to marry one, but not at the expense of putting up with a lot of shit!   Selfish me!

10. After reading the posts so far, it seems to me that the 'Entitlement Mentality" is just as strong as has been suggested. It just has different names.... "Traditional Marriage" etc.  I have no arguments with that idea when two people are young and starting out fresh.  It is probably how it should be and the men (fathers) should accept the resonsibilities that Lily described so well in her post.

11.  It seems that some people still have an "entitlement mentality" when they have nothing to bring to the table.  I guess that is OK, but do not expect most men to put you on the top of their list.  Put yourself in the mans shoes.  Where do you stack up in the supply/demand equation?

[noelscot]

Of the hundreds of women that I have corresponded with over the past year (Ukraine), this was a unique case.  I am wondering how prevelant it is with FSU women.  Your experiences in this vein?


I was sent an unsolicated 'freind' request on one of the free dating sites by this lady.  She is 39, a store manager and has two teenage daughers.  She is about a 7 on the beauty scale, nice looking  but not a knockout.  Her profile indicated that she knew English and wants to relocate to the UK or the USA.


We chatted on Skype daily for over 3 weeks and she seemed very serious.  Her English was very good and indicated she was taking English lessons 3 nights a week.  Her two daughters are 15 and 16 and I later learned were both in college and would not graduate for 2 years.  While the thought of the uplanned expense of putting 2 kids through college was an issue, nevertheless I decided to continue the correspondence.


It finally reached a point where I wanted to discuss the mechanics of how to deal with the childrens education if we were to build a family together.  In probing the options of what is best for the children and their education, I inquired if there was a possibility of the kids finishing college in Ukraine while living with their father, and then coming to the US after graduation.   


Dumb me.....  I quickly learned that you NEVER suggest seperating the lioness from her cubs.
She made it clear that she is not going anywhere without her kids.  The lioness quickly recomposed herself and the conversations continued as before.  She had inquired about what kind of work she could do in the US and the conversations went back to small talk for a while.


After more probing of her expectations, she finally explained her real requirements for a husband.  It was enlightening!   She has worked hard all her life and is tired and 'worn out' (at age 39).  She is looking for a man that will take care of her and her children and she does not want to have to work any more!!!


It took 3 weeks of daily Skype chat to finally drag it out of her.  What she is looking for is a 'Sugar Daddy' that will support her and her kids, while she sits at home.


The correspondence ended when I told her that I did not think I could meet her requirements.  Her response was "That's OK,  I will find my man".


This case made me think about the discussions on the forum about the "Entitlement" attitude of some FSU women as well as a new wrinkle that I had not thought about before.....


How many of these women on the dating sites are not serious about finding a husband, but instead are just throwing the bait into the water, and seeing if a "Sugar Daddy" happens to bite?




Have others found many of the FSU women to fall into this category?
Needless to say, if it were not for an extensive period on Skype to extract this, it could have become a wasted trip.  She had invited me to come and stay with her and the family this summer.


Any similar experiences?

Obviously, I don't know you and I do not know the woman with whom you were corresponding, so I won't comment on you or her (well, maybe just a little), but rather on the macro-topics of entitlement and feminism. Entitlement is "the fact of having a right to something" per the OED.


First, "rights" are an abstract concept that has been held over since the Enlightenment. It sounds nice on paper, but privileges are what people have in reality. Skip to about 4:26 on this George Carlin video. He makes some good points.









Second, from where did feminism originate? Feminism is an egalitarian concept, yes, but its true origin, as Julius Evola noted, is that men set a bad example for women (by not being MEN).  What were the results of the feminism genie being let out of the bottle? Men lost their living wage, and now have to compete with women in the workplace. (Pat Buchanan explains the living wage far better than I can in his books and columns.)  Raising a family now is even harder for men, who have always been the traditional breadwinners.


So where am I going with all of this? Is a traditional woman who does not want to work and wants to be a homemaker the road back to Traditional ways? There is no “going back.” Tradition is about as dead as the divine right of kings.


For the non-rich man, it is inevitable that both the man and woman are going to have to work, especially if there are children to feed, clothe, send to college, doctor’s visits, cars, car insurance, the latest iPhone...the bills go on into infinity. 


So the only option for a Traditional woman who wants to be a homemaker is a rich man, unless she herself is already rich. By those prerequisites, a FSUW who is a Traditionalist MUST marry a rich man, not a middle class man or a poor man.  The question is whether or not there are modern FSUW who have become wise to the realities of the modern world, and if they are willing to marry for love and not money, then have to work a really crappy entry level job when they get over here just to survive? Or vice versa, the man, out of true love, picks up roots and moves to the FSU to make a life with his woman and bears the many hardships a foreigner faces.


I don’t know the answers to all these questions, but I think there are some unrealistic expectations on the part of men and women. (Some of Oswald Spengler's thoughts about the Russian worldview in "The Decline of the West" are food for thought in regards to the cultural differences which may or may not play a factor in the FSUW's ideal role for a woman in society.) But there is no monolithic FSUW worldview. There is a younger generation that is different than, say, a 40 y.o. woman raised in the USSR. Things are dynamic, not static.


Personally, I think it is IDEAL for a woman to not have to work, but unless a man is well off financially, a man cannot care for a large family on his own in the modern world (not without a living wage and women crowding the workforce and competing for men's jobs). So it would be SELFISH for a woman to enter a marriage where she knew the economic situation beforehand, then DEMAND that the man pay for everything. This is why it is so important to be completely honest about everything.


Welcome to the modern world.

[Lily]

6. Lily.... I do not disagree with your comments, but the 'traditional marriage' (at least in America) is more often practiced in first marriages, or marriages that have no children.  In most cases, I think it is still practiced among young Americans for their first marrige..  What is different from what you describe is the approach many if not most Americans practice for later marriages.  It is quite common for each party to take the position.... what is each person bringing to the table.  Once a man or woman has worked hard all their life and acquired some wealth, and/or a home, they are much more realistic about the financial expectations of each party to contribute to the well being of the family.  Sex and beauty becomes a much lesser part of it. Perhaps the propoganda FSU women have been led to believe is causing them to think that beauty and age differences outweighs the common sense of financial responsibility and planning for the future.  You might have a point that FSU women expect men to adhere to  this traditional marriage custom for later marriages.
 

Good to know how it is perceived in the U.S., thank you calmissile. From my observatoins, this is not the point of view that is shared by most traditionally minded Russians. Keep in mind that historically, Russians hardly had an opportunity to accumulate any wealth, despite the hard work throughout their lives.
For a traditional mind, the roles of man and woman would hardly change with their age. Just think of the saying that I quoted above, what financial responsibility would you expect from a young daughter towards her mature father?

At least the woman was honest and he had to decide what to do with the truth. It can be a tough decision. But I didn't like her cavalier atitude at the end. No tears. Just "I will find another man".

Chicagoguy, a number of Russian speakers have a hard time expressing themselves in the conditional tense of the English language. I guess that her intention might have been to say something like 'I will look for another man', instead of an affirmative 'I will'. I often notice this tendency among the Russian speakers. In her situation, this woman probably does not really have lots of choices in men.
 
 

[OlgaH]

What you call the 'entitlement attitude', Russians would call a proper traditional position of man and woman. There is a Russian saying, "The husband has to be like a father to his wife, the wife has to be like a crown on her husband's head'. That means, a woman is naturaly entitled to every kind of support and protection from her man, like a father would do to his daughter, and the man is naturally entitled to everything that would make him proud of  his wife.
Some men here look for a traditional wife, why would they be surprised when faced with a quintessential traditional attitude?

Lily, what you have written sounds like hundred years ago.     But I would rather agree that such mentality is not unusual among female folk in MOB that actually is less in number.

After the Red Revolution one of the main propaganda of the Soviet government was to involve women into the process of industrialization. Education and job was primary goal a Soviet woman had to achieve. The Soviet government opened the kindergarten for Soviet workers and peasants. If you go on Russian mothers forums that are not related to MOB you will find that most of the mothers wait for a kindergarten  for their children like manna from heaven (there is a shortage of places in the kindergartens in Russia) and they hire nannies or ask their retired parents to look after children.

Below the Soviet posters:

- No kitchen slavery!
- Propaganda for women to work
- Propaganda of kindergartens and nurseries

[GQBlues]

I strongly believe this 'attitude' is prevalent in the marriage industry. It is as likely in the Philippines, Columbia and Vietnam as it is in China, as they are both in Russia and Ukraine. I'm lost why this always seem mystifying.
 
It is also little wonder why so many of the brides are single Moms.
 
The supposition therefore is, if one needs assurance in encountering women who are literally void of such aspirations, it is almost a guarantee that chances are far better with a 39 yo French woman, maybe Swede, British, Canadian, etc...who made themselves available through  international marriages.
 
Let's face it, life in Ukraine is relatively pretty tough. Especially for a single woman pushing 40 with 2 kids.