Unrealistic Expectations - Women - Entitlement Mentality

[Lily]

Lily, what you have written sounds like hundred years ago.     But I would rather agree that such mentality is not unusual among female folk in MOB that actually is less in number.

After the Red Revolution one of the main propaganda of the Soviet government was to involve women into the process of industrialization. Education and job was primary goal a Soviet woman had to achieve. The Soviet government opened the kindergarten for Soviet workers and peasants. If you go on Russian mothers forums that are not related to MOB you will find that most of the mothers wait for a kindergarten  for their children like manna from heaven (there is a shortage of places in the kindergartens in Russia) and they hire nannies or ask their retired parents to look after children.

That's right. What I meant is the traditional mentality that is indeed hundreds years old, not the Soviet proparanda that lasted some 70 years.

[Daveman]

Lily, what you have written sounds like hundred years ago.     But I would rather agree that such mentality is not unusual among female folk in MOB that actually is less in number.
...

"Unrealistic" is often the nomenclature applied to the "idealistic".  Something I have often thought is that on both sides of this MOB thing there exists an idealistic tendency... many on both sides seeking a fantastic ideal unattainable at home or (most likely) anywhere else.  Infatuation with a dream...

[OlgaH]

RW:  "Give me money."
AM:  "Why should I give you money?"
RW:  "Because I am young and beautiful."

Calmissile, you will encounter this attitude frequently in the FSU.   I believe Ecocks is saying the same.

I would say more often among MOB  (probably counting on naivity of western dreamers) 

Here is a joke:

A woman chooses a fur coat and asks a salesman if he can give her a discount. He asks her: "Why I should give you any discount?". "Because of my beautiful eyes" - the woman answers. He looks at her : "OK, I will give 20% off the price, now pluck your beautiful eyes out."

Every beauty queen in Russia knows "a crown" she is given is not free and she has to pay back.  How? per agreement with a "giver" 

[OlgaH]

That's right. What I meant is the traditional mentality that is indeed hundreds years old, not the Soviet proparanda that lasted some 70 years.

and what I meant is that the traditional mentality you are talking about mostly exist among women in MOB   

[ECOCKS]

Despite the great info to be gleaned from the women's comments, my suspicion is that most of the guys in this endeavor cannot be bothered by silly things like truth.

After you hear these proverbs for the umpteenth millionth time, just maybe the bulb will begin to flicker as the blood flow returns to the brain and the light is about to come on..........

[newjason]

Despite the great info to be gleaned from the women's comments, my suspicion is that most of the guys in this endeavor cannot be bothered by silly things like truth.

After you hear these proverbs for the umpteenth millionth time, just maybe the bulb will begin to flicker as the blood flow returns to the brain and the light is about to come on..........

+1

I am starting to think that there is no light to flicker,  the bulb is in fact just absent, at all.

[Gylden]

Not rocket science really.
This is why you should stick to your criteria you have established in your profile. IMO it is why you put it there, to avoid this kind of situation. It is also a major reason why younger women contact older men.
Some men accept the role, while others don't.
Some women have different ideas/goals.

[Ade]

1.  I am not looking for a 30 year age gap.  I did not seek out this woman, she sought me out.  She knew my age and still chose to explore a romance with me.
GOT IT?  She knew the age range I was seeking and knew she was well outside that range.

Nevertheless, you still managed to "build a relationship" on Skype with her for 3 weeks...    So what are you saying? You lied to her about your real intentions? Or you were too dumb to realize that for a 39 year-old women to emigrate to the US to be with a pensioner 30 years her senior, she'd probably want more than a US passport and a life of unskilled work to look forward to?


Seems to me from that and other comments you've made that you were the one with the unrealistic expectations and entitlement attitude.


So I tend to agree with Pitbull and Lilly here. I'd also say that you should stick to women much closer to your own age and ignore the women that are too young for your wrinkly old bod (read; require more from you than a passport ) like sensible guys do.


Aren't you the guy that's engaged to the village woman, 22 years your junior, right? I also see that you've been spending some money on her and her dacha. And the difference between exhibit A above and this lovely lady you pole dance with is what exactly, besides the 7 years?

[happyandstable]

Are you kidding? Seeking an "equal relationship" with an attravtive woman 30 years younger from a developing country? Assuming that she should leave her two teenage kids behind cause the it's cheaper for the old Romeo? And then work (most probably in a minimum wage dirty job) upon arrival? All that for the privilige of sleeping with a 70-y.o. and a not so distant future of changing adult diapers? Yeah, we are taking about unrealistic expectations and a sense of entitlement here-a typical AM babyboomer mentality.

Disclaimer: I'm a firm believer in equal relationships and am living one

   To start off where did I say I was looking for a woman 30 years my junior?

   Now I think it is fair to say that most people who engage in all the various forms of internet dating, whether it is a more traditional site like Match.com or the International dating sites that abound; initially may or may not have and idealistic point of view about the experience. One would hope that over time a more realistic view is acquired (if not there at the onset)

What you call the 'entitlement attitude', Russians would call a proper traditional position of man and woman. There is a Russian saying, "The husband has to be like a father to his wife, the wife has to be like a crown on her husband's head'. That means, a woman is naturaly entitled to every kind of support and protection from her man, like a father would do to his daughter, and the man is naturally entitled to everything that would make him proud of  his wife.
Some men here look for a traditional wife, why would they be surprised when faced with a quintessential traditional attitude?

  Let be honest here no one is “Naturally Entitled” to anything. Yes this has been the traditional view of a marriage and not just in FSU. Reality is that this is not the 2012 BC not even 1890 AD or the 1990’s. And let’s also understand that the traditional definition of a marriage (in Biblical times) is between a man and his property. This is why the man had to give the bride’s family some goats, furs, cloth or some other form of compensation solidifying the exchange of goods. I do not think any of the ladies posting here would want to go back to that LOL (neither do I).

I have to admit that I don't see this so much as the "entitlement attitude" but more of a goals incompatibility, however, adding two teenage girls to the mix with the idea that it's the new husband's obligation to pay for their education would be in the realm of unrealistic.

   Spot on I agree with this post +1

" Sorry, you have to pay for that" is a  classic example of entitlement.   It is no different than the following:   

RW:  "Give me money."
AM:  "Why should I give you money?"
RW:  "Because I am young and beautiful."

Calmissile, you will encounter this attitude frequently in the FSU.   I believe Ecocks is saying the same.

These women do not want to be with you.   They reluctantly accept being with you because you pay.   Such is not beautiful, agree?


It is far better to pursue women whose goals and values are aligned with yours, and who share loving feelings. You can find women who seek a relationship that satisfies their whole being, to drink from a single vessel - you.   Stay with them rather than these bloodsuckers.   

With regard to women and their children, you will play second fiddle to the children in the beginning.  That is the way it is.......in the beginning.  However, if you do not become an equal player in the family dynamics after three trips with the mother and kids, walk away - they really do not want you in their inner circle other than be the provider. 
 
Notice that I said equal player. If you expect to be the prima donna, don't date women with children.   Maybe don't date at all. 
 
 

   This is also very true. I would suggest that if they have no plans of letting you into “Their Inner Circle” then this is not even a relationship but a from of abuse.

Lily, what you have written sounds like hundred years ago.     But I would rather agree that such mentality is not unusual among female folk in MOB that actually is less in number.

After the Red Revolution one of the main propaganda of the Soviet government was to involve women into the process of industrialization. Education and job was primary goal a Soviet woman had to achieve. The Soviet government opened the kindergarten for Soviet workers and peasants. If you go on Russian mothers forums that are not related to MOB you will find that most of the mothers wait for a kindergarten  for their children like manna from heaven (there is a shortage of places in the kindergartens in Russia) and they hire nannies or ask their retired parents to look after children.

   Great point OlgaH, I would add though those most successful marriages that come from this arena are not based on the Traditional model but one more current based upon the “Best Friend/Life Partner” model.

"Unrealistic" is often the nomenclature applied to the "idealistic".  Something I have often thought is that on both sides of this MOB thing there exists an idealistic tendency... many on both sides seeking a fantastic ideal unattainable at home or (most likely) anywhere else.  Infatuation with a dream...

  I think this is the heart of the matter here idealistic = unrealistic.

   Now I for one am not looking for a huge age gap. An age gap of even 6 years scares the heck out of me. As for me the reason I got into this was to expand my dating potential. Looking for the right fit for both parties is a huge task, and whether we like it or not this is a numbers game. The best relationships start out as friends and grow from there. I consider myself and “enlighten” gentleman and believe that women are people deserving of respect and admiration. That is not am “Entitlement” but just a fact based about the respect every individual deserves until proved otherwise.

   I think most individual’s male or female who have been in this for any length of time, and are sincere in this approach to finding a life partner/best friend will gain the real world perspective and not be looking for a Sugar Daddy or a Beauty Queen. After all look what happened to most queens during the so-called age of enlightenment. Case in point Marie Antoinette, are you sure you still want to be a queen?

   It is IMHO better to be equal’s in all things, and to be on an even platform with each other.

   @ Lily and OlgaH

   Thank you for you great comments and insight to the mindset of FSU women. You are both to be congratulated for your sharing so freely with your intelligent post throughout this site.

   In conclusion I would say most women when they are honest with themselves are looking more for a best friend/ life partner kind of love then to be the Queen bee of the home. After all who wants to be a “kept” individual? Those are my thoughts for now I will be following this post as it is one of the most interesting going on at the moment.

[Darth_Budda]

What you call the 'entitlement attitude', Russians would call a proper traditional position of man and woman. There is a Russian saying, "The husband has to be like a father to his wife, the wife has to be like a crown on her husband's head'. That means, a woman is naturaly entitled to every kind of support and protection from her man, like a father would do to his daughter, and the man is naturally entitled to everything that would make him proud of  his wife.
Some men here look for a traditional wife, why would they be surprised when faced with a quintessential traditional attitude?

Look for a women you can share your dreams with a women you can love for who she is and accept you for who you are.

It would be your responsibility as a husband to support her in what ever she chooses to do. If money becomes tight because one one person works than that's a price both of you will have to pay.

 Man + Women = 1 shared life. not 2   

[JohnDearGreen]

After more probing of her expectations, she finally explained her real requirements for a husband.  It was enlightening!   She has worked hard all her life and is tired and 'worn out' (at age 39).  She is looking for a man that will take care of her and her children and she does not want to have to work any more!!!

It could be worse.  One RW I met with had a burning desire to open a Russian restaurant in the USA.  I would guess a 99.8% chance of that being a failure with big losses.
Another RW, the oldest that I met, was same age as me (46) at the time.   She said she had worked very hard as a salesman at a furniture store for many years and would prefer to not work anymore. 
If choosing between those two options, I would prefer the second one.  I didn't really see anything too negative about her comment. 

[Turboguy]

Nice post Darth.  I agree with you totally.   I think it is about finding the right woman for you.  If it is someone who wants a career that is fine.  If it is someone who wants to stay at home and that is what someone wants then that too is fine.  Many RW have trouble finding a good job anyway and some men like having a stay at home wife.  The problem would be if the man feels he needs the help and income to have the life he wants and the wife wants to stay home and play Susie homemaker.
 
In the case of a man in his 60's who meets a woman with an entiltlement attitude that wants to not work that could in some cases be good.  If he is or is going to retire and wants to travel and enjoy his retirement she would be free to travel with im.  If she were 30 years younger he would get the benefits that come with a young and possibly attractive wife and the freedom not working would have so they could enjoy life togther. 
 
The key thing is to find the woman who fits your life.   I see some really great matches that have happened in real life.  One would be an older Greek retired man who lives in England who married a somewhat younger RW.  She works part time to keep herself from being bored but has the freedom for them to travel together.  It seems like every month they are off on some exotic vacation.  It is a great match and yes, perhaps there is an entitlement attitude there but it is a perfect set up for both. 
 
My days of contaction RW are long behind me.  One of my observations in my long search was that way back in the 90's when I started my search in my communications I would often ask what kind of life the woman I was writing wanted.  Did she want to work or did she prefer to stay at home.  Back in the 90's I often got the answer that if they needed to work they would but if it wasn't necessary they would prefer to stay at home.  A decade later when I asked that question the answer was almost always that they wanted to work and would be bored to death staying home.  So my thoughts are that some but not most RW don't have an entitlement attitude.

[Patagonie]

Of the hundreds of women that I have corresponded with over the past year (Ukraine), this was a unique case.  I am wondering how prevelant it is with FSU women.  Your experiences in this vein?

I was sent an unsolicated 'freind' request on one of the free dating sites by this lady.  She is 39, a store manager and has two teenage daughers.  She is about a 7 on the beauty scale, nice looking  but not a knockout.  Her profile indicated that she knew English and wants to relocate to the UK or the USA.

We chatted on Skype daily for over 3 weeks and she seemed very serious.  Her English was very good and indicated she was taking English lessons 3 nights a week.  Her two daughters are 15 and 16 and I later learned were both in college and would not graduate for 2 years.  While the thought of the uplanned expense of putting 2 kids through college was an issue, nevertheless I decided to continue the correspondence.

It finally reached a point where I wanted to discuss the mechanics of how to deal with the childrens education if we were to build a family together.  In probing the options of what is best for the children and their education, I inquired if there was a possibility of the kids finishing college in Ukraine while living with their father, and then coming to the US after graduation.     

Dumb me.....  I quickly learned that you NEVER suggest seperating the lioness from her cubs. 
She made it clear that she is not going anywhere without her kids.  The lioness quickly recomposed herself and the conversations continued as before.  She had inquired about what kind of work she could do in the US and the conversations went back to small talk for a while.

After more probing of her expectations, she finally explained her real requirements for a husband.  It was enlightening!   She has worked hard all her life and is tired and 'worn out' (at age 39).  She is looking for a man that will take care of her and her children and she does not want to have to work any more!!!

It took 3 weeks of daily Skype chat to finally drag it out of her.  What she is looking for is a 'Sugar Daddy' that will support her and her kids, while she sits at home.

The correspondence ended when I told her that I did not think I could meet her requirements.  Her response was "That's OK,  I will find my man".

This case made me think about the discussions on the forum about the "Entitlement" attitude of some FSU women as well as a new wrinkle that I had not thought about before.....

How many of these women on the dating sites are not serious about finding a husband, but instead are just throwing the bait into the water, and seeing if a "Sugar Daddy" happens to bite?


Have others found many of the FSU women to fall into this category?
Needless to say, if it were not for an extensive period on Skype to extract this, it could have become a wasted trip.  She had invited me to come and stay with her and the family this summer.

Any similar experiences?

I see nothing in her of a possible women searching a "sugar daddy". A lot of serious guys have the wealth and wages to offer a life where a wife doesn't need to work. If you cannot offer her such marriage and you have communicated honestly about your both expectations so all is fine, you have only wasted few times in communication. Of course not a big deal. I don't see anything wrong in her mentality, nothing dishonest, she is waiting a traditionnal provider, in the fsu sense, Lily explains it very well.
Now about her chances to find such man... Low, very low in my opinion. It is where she is not realistic. First she is 39, you say a 7, barelly average, and the big problem is she has 2 childs of 15 and 16. As we are not stupid everybody understand quickly the numerals on the bill for the next short  decade, to let them getting an higher education.


Personaly i would consider such profile as not mine, and i always avoid women with two or more childrens. One ok, but no more. And i also avoid women with old children because exactly of the cost of an higher education. I would avoid too much pressure in the beginning of a marriage with an RW, there are enough many. And by standards of my country i am not in the poor or middle class. Quite the opposite.

But RW have no reals ideas of costs in our society, and i mean all costs during a life, real estate, save for retirement, extra total cost of the FSU adventure, your expected support for her family, your total support to give to her/your childrens for education. And a very good standard daily life (considered as comfortable), and everywhere you must not show that you are greedy, you don't have to be greedy. We see here the limits of such exercise. If they work and manage the family budget i think it a good way to understand the western reality, which is exploding, but  unfortunately in the wrong direction for more and more people. 

[GQBlues]

...I am starting to think that there is no light to flicker,  the bulb is in fact just absent, at all.

 
 
 
Yeah...it does give the impression that when reports came about how cleavages can be seen from outer space in Russia/Ukraine, many AM brideseekers forgot to bring their reading glasses to read the rules and regulations.
 
Intentionally or otherwise.
 
Did the government started experimenting with cryogenic freeze back in the 40-50s? There seem to be a whole lot of relationships with 30-40 year age disparity these days....

[XMan]

A decade later when I asked that question the answer was almost always that they wanted to work and would be bored to death staying home.  So my thoughts are that some but not most RW don't have an entitlement attitude.

The biggest concern from my intended (well, second biggest, the first being the custody issue and whether it will ever be resolved) is how much time it will take to learn English well enough to work outside the home.  She wants to be able to work not only for her own self-worth, but for other reasons as well.  She has asked me questions about what happens when her mother passes, should we keep her home in Ukraine, etc.  Frankly, I had no idea because while I had thought about many aspects of this I had not considered that one.  My point is that she is looking at all aspects as well.  An "entitlement-focused" woman is pretty much looking at one aspect. 

Do FSU women want a better life?  Who doesn't.  I can't really blame them for that. 

The interesting thing is that it seems some folks don't realize that the "entitlement attitude" is everywhere, not just with some women in the FSU.  There are plenty of women in the USA right now who are perfectly willing to hook up with a guy who has some means (and the greater his means the better) and therefore not work and not worry about money, and they probably are within a stones throw of wherever you reside. 
   

[GQBlues]

...
Now about her chances to find such man... Low, very low in my opinion. It is where she is not realistic. First she is 39, you say a 7, barelly average, and the big problem is she has 2 childs of 15 and 16. As we are not stupid everybody understand quickly the numerals on the bill for the next short  decade, to let them getting an higher education....

Well, apparently in the US the cost is only $10,000.00 a year for a woman with 3 kids Patagonie. Batteries included...
 
Anyway...considering all the benefit a typical retiree gets from these marriages, supporting a traditional wife 30+ years their junior, with or without kids, IS a bargain if you consider that 30 second lap dances apparently cost 40 bucks these days.
 
C'mon...no touching and the only other thing you get out of it other than the visual, is the stench of cheap perfume (?)
 
So yeah, I'd say supporting her, and her entire village, for life is realistically a bargain if you consider the alternative. No?

[Faux Pas]

The interesting thing is that it seems some folks don't realize that the "entitlement attitude" is everywhere, not just with some women in the FSU. There are plenty of women in the USA right now who are perfectly willing to hook up with a guy who has some means (and the greater his means the better) and therefore not work and not worry about money, and they probably are within a stones throw of wherever you reside. 
 

All true. Something that seems to be glossed over here in this thread is, the WM with the entitlement attitude that they deserve a beautiful woman from the FSU that's willing to be or do anything her Western husband says. 

[Misha]

The ones with unrealistic expectations will invariably end up alone, though perhaps with an interlude of marriage. This is true for both men and women. The best they can hope for, to cite a Kenny Rogers' song of yore, is to die in their sleep 

[LAman]

How enlightening this forum is......I never realized how many women with the 'entitilement atttitude' lived all around me. Just counting............70% of households has this type of women......stay at home raising kids type of women or oh, one does volunteer work at hospital and they are all from good ole USA!!!!!
You know, I always assumed it was a decision between the husband and wife to determine what kind of lifestyle they wanted......with wifey not working= less income and it was just a choice!!!! Now i find out, it was ALL the women's doings!!!

[Fashionista]

Russia is a big country, and there is always a chance to find something realistic - the opposite of unrealistic - a woman who is looking for a foreign man 30 years older than her, whom she wants to sit at home and entertain her by parading in sexy lace lingerie when she comes back from work...

[Miri22]

Trophy wife much? Let's be honest - if you're a WM fishing the waters for ANY much younger, slim, beautiful woman from a 3rdish world country you'd better bring a trump card to the table. Yeah, money and a privileged lifestyle for the woman. Ridiculous to think a woman would take a mate 25 to 30 years her senior because "I really love him" and she wants to work at office depot as a checker to help make ends meet. Please.

[ML]

This is a very informative thread. 

Very useful for the newbies to see the mind-set of the FSUW as displayed here.  This frank wording by the FSUW here can help to offset the rosy picture of FSUW as painted by the agencies.  That is; if the newbies (and still stupid oldies) are willing to open their eyes and ears.

Gator and ECOCKS are spot on in their assessments.

And with respect to this entitlement attitude, aside from any relationship to 'traditional' concepts, it can be traced directly to the agencies again.  We often  caution men  in this endeavor to not believe what they read on the agency propaganda sites. 

But actually, it is the FSUW who are harmed just as much by this agency garbage.  The FSUW come to truly believe that they are all beautiful, desirable and God's gift to men.  I have encountered several average looking FSUW who actually  tell me how beautiful they are . . . when they certainly are not.  They usually tie their comments in with the idea that . . . 'all UW/RW are beautiful.'  Given the frequency that I have actually heard the words from some FSUW, I have to believe that most of the silent ones believe this also.

This idea of their beauty (even when it doesn't exist) and that they are God's gift to men leads directly to the entitlement attitude (if they don't already have it from 'tradition').  And it is greatly harming these women when it leads to their unrealistic attitude toward what man they can actually attract as demonstrated by the woman referenced in the OP.

I came across some very prickly women a few years back who told me something  like "I know my worth, I know what I want, and I am not going to settle for less."  These women can still be found on the dating websites.

[ML]

Now, in a slightly different vein:

As noted by some in this thread, it is a nice benefit for the man to be with a woman who is great to look at, no matter what her age.

For instance, yesterday we attended an early baseball game.  Then we went to an 'all you can eat buffet type restaurant.'  My 5 foot 7, size 6, 40s Gal was wearing tight skinny jeans with high heels and tight sweater.  I was in heaven!  She made several trips back and forth picking up the plates, silverware, salads, etc.   All eyes were on her in one form or another (directly or furtively) in admiration (men and some women) or jealously (most of the women).

I loved it.  I would even pay something for it.  But luckily for me, I don't have to pay; although I know this is an unusual situation.   

[Patagonie]

 

Well, apparently in the US the cost is only $10,000.00 a year for a woman with 3 kids Patagonie. Batteries included...
 
Anyway...considering all the benefit a typical retiree gets from these marriages, supporting a traditional wife 30+ years their junior, with or without kids, IS a bargain if you consider that 30 second lap dances apparently cost 40 bucks these days.
 
C'mon...no touching and the only other thing you get out of it other than the visual, is the stench of cheap perfume (?)
 
So yeah, I'd say supporting her, and her entire village, for life is realistically a bargain if you consider the alternative. No?

 


Yes of course.

[Faux Pas]

Now, in a slightly different vein:

As noted by some in this thread, it is a nice benefit for the man to be with a woman who is great to look at, no matter what her age.

For instance, yesterday we attended an early baseball game.  Then we went to an 'all you can eat buffet type restaurant.'  My 5 foot 7, size 6, 40s Gal was wearing tight skinny jeans with high heels and tight sweater.  I was in heaven!  She made several trips back and forth picking up the plates, silverware, salads, etc.   All eyes were on her in one form or another (directly or furtively) in admiration (men and some women) or jealously (most of the women).

I loved it.  I would even pay something for it.  But luckily for me, I don't have to pay; although I know this is an unusual situation.   

I'm not sure I get this. You're entitled to a hot size 6 Gal in jeans and a tight sweater or is Gal entitled to the buffet? No bread I'm guessing?