Unrealistic Expectations - Women - Entitlement Mentality

[ECOCKS]

Ed, the methods/means that *human* corruption manifests itself simply evolve along with societal concepts such as the "rule of law" but human nature remains the same.  Would I prefer to live in 1920's chicago? Absolutely not.  Do I believe everyday life is better overall here than there? Sure I do.  Would I be somehow different if I were raised there as opposed to here? Possibly, even probably quite considerably. 


You lived there far longer than I.  I've lived there off an on for total of about a year and a half.  Yet, I am neither blind nor naive. I also see, in the majority of common people [size=78%]far more than merely "people from a corrupt society".  It is what it is. And they are who they are.  Some, even many and maybe most are just common everyday good people.. and even those are touched and tainted by the "class status" system.  It's like the mentality never actually changed from the Tzarist era.. merely placing different labels on their concepts of status.  [/size]


I don't think westerners differ so much in that regard either.. why does a doctor who treats a few thousand have so much more perceived "status" than say a farmer who feeds tens of thousands?  Education? Money? it certainly isn't character...  Society would collapse without farmers and truckers. Yet, they are "low class".  Doctors wouldn't be doctors without teachers. Yet teachers are certainly not at the upper echelon of societal ranking.


These marriages, if for love and family, result in a blended family with values instilled from both sides of the family.

I hear you Dave but.....

I see far more status-consciousness, greed and materialism in Ukraine than in the US. Those traits, mixed with desperation, poor educational/career development system and the antics of their government have allowed corruption to permeate through their society.

Speaking for myself, I know more farmers than doctors (not counting the educational ones at least) and respect general comments (as opposed to specific knowledge ones) from farmers as being more practical and useful than the average doctor.

Same with truckers although I probably do know more doctors than those folks.

I do sort of understand your comments regarding the different forms of corruption. However, when I look around the table at a Rotary Club meeting or talk to the coffeehouse and hair salon owner-neighbors of my business I see nothing like the corruption over there.

You honestly believe the percentage of "corruption" in Congress is anywhere close to that of the Rada or City Councils in the FSU? We're not talking stupidity, misguided politics or gamesmanship now. Maybe some of the pork-barrel projects and the "you scratch my back and I will scratch yours" mentality is almost that but at least those resulted in projects went to the taxpayers who elected them.

Our schools are failing miserably these last couple of decades and the grade inflation, along with social passing, is ridiculous but have you ever really known of anyone who slept with their professor for a grade? Gave them an envelope with cash for missing 10 weeks of school?

I know businessmen who have failed and lost their businesses due to government regulations and the failure of government to act but do you kow of any who benefited personally from failures like that? I don't. Every now and then some mayor or school superintendant gets caught off base but I don't know anyone who breaks the law with true impunity. do I know restaurant owners who have dirty establishments? Sure. But they're not paying off and they are risking poor PR for their grades and possible shut-downs for failure to correct.

I applied for a waiver of part of the city's zoning restrictions but no cash accompanied it. Just a written statement on what I wished to do and why I thought it would make sense to receive an exemption.

[mies]

Okay, different point, and I agree.  The L.A. riots, the Vancouver riots, and the debacle of Hurricane Katrina prove that is not the case.

But, I think the regulation of society is better here.



mies, Ed taught in Ukraine many years ago.  He is not there now.

I disagree that corruption is tied to strong family ties.  It is usually about enriching yourself at the expense of others.

Thank you, Boethius.
we can disagree on this topic, and I respect your opinion. I do not say that corruption is a product of family ties, but I believe family ties, along with personal and professional networks, are one of critical mechanisms of persistent corruption.
Let's take an (overly simplified) example, how corruption works in Ukraine.
Suppose individual X, 22 yo, needs to renew a passport in a very tight time. It is legally possible to do it so fast, but normally it takes much longer. Let's say, an official can review X's documents immediately, or can take 1-2 weeks. There are several officials who need to review X's documents and sign them. If all of them signed documents same day, X can get new passport in 2 days. But if every official takes the maximum possible time for review, X will not have their passport even month later. So, what should X do? Talk to his parents. They live in the same town/city. They went to school with someone who now works in the organization where X needs to get first signature, X's grandparents were neighbors in dacha with someone whose child now works in another organization where X needs to get the second signature, and so on. Through family ties X gets phone numbers of the people who work in the organization he needs, his parents call those people, ask for help. Those do not need to be people who actually review documents and sign them. But they will tell whom to talk to, stop by those people and tell them X will come to you, please review his documents, he's a nice guy and needs them fast, and he's an acquaintance. So then X comes with his documents, and 2 sets of "gifts" - for the person/acquaintance, and for the one who will do the review/signing. The gifts can be symbolic, but now X owes the favor in return.
In the scenarios like this one, the family is the strongest capital each individual has. In many cases, a person is only as good as his/her connections are. And many connections are family-based. With age, individual builds their own contacts and networks. Very often people who climb very high on professional/career ladder still keep close ties with their multiple relatives and extended families, and help them if they can.

I also think that networking is strong in USA as well, but it does not become corruption because legal system works in USA much better than it does in Ukraine, and because people in USA are more individualistic and have some other distinct traits not common for Ukrainians (I am not saying better or worse, just different).

[Daveman]

   So if any woman thinks that she is the weaker sex will she be willing to admit then that she is a second class citizen. I highly doubt that they would accept such and Idea.

Think of it more along the lines of "role playing games".   "Strong/weak" have deeper meaning than what we perceive.  One is neither better nor worse than the other but they do not have "equal" functionality.  Perhaps the difference lies in how they define the term "equal" -- it's not about "value",  it's about roles.  But for some reason, when men start speaking about "equality" they begin to think of women with penises and men with breasts and a womb.


Though I used the "golden coin" analogy as the straight lead in for the punch line, it actually is relevant and extrapolates better than well.   You are indicating "value". They think of "roles".  Golden coin = equal value, heads/tails indicates roles.


Agree or not, that's your choice, but a more open mind to the subtle differences in FSU male/female mentality and roles may help your long term goals more than you now realize.

[happyandstable]

But for some reason, when men start speaking about "equality" they begin to think of women with penises and men with breasts and a womb.

   Along those lines, when Vasilisa grows a penis and a set of testicles, with an enlarged prostrate; I’ll get the set of breast and womb. But then will I need a couch honey to clutter up the place? Or will any work get done around here? I think not I’ll be too busy playing with those new breasts and getting myself pregnant to do any work! What a wonderful world it will be when we are all hermaphrodites.

[happyandstable]

On a serious note an Open Mind is the only way to travel through life!

[Miri22]

You can rationalize it however you want.. Bottom line is we fish other waters because we can't get the same beauty at home.

[Slumba]

I thought it was accepted as truth, that Slav households were often run on basis of (some form of equality), but Soviet Communism changed that to one where men were pre-dominant and got the best jobs, opportunities, etc. If I am wrong, please correct me.

As to women being equal to men, why would they stoop to make themselves so low   

[Turboguy]

I think our perception of farmers vs Doctors might be influenced by if we happened to be hungry or sick at the time.  For many people because of the higher education and higher income they might tend to put doctors at a higher level of esteem.   

I thought it was accepted as truth, that Slav households were often run on basis of (some form of equality), but Soviet Communism changed that to one where men were pre-dominant and got the best jobs, opportunities, etc. If I am wrong, please correct me.

My perception was a little different which does not mean I am right and you are wrong.  My perception of men vs women under communism was that the upper ranks were male dominated and based more on the old boy club or who you or your family knew and how connected they or you were but for the masses, men were expected to do the hard manual labor and the government was less interested in educating them and the women were more highly educated and we expected to work more in the fields such as teachers, doctors and administrators where that education was required.

You can rationalize it however you want.. Bottom line is we fish other waters because we can't get the same beauty at home.

I am sure beauty is one of the factors that draws people to sites like AFA and AWeb but I do think that most men are not looking for beauty alone.  Maybe I am wrong but if most thought they were going to get a woman who was a beauty but a real bitch to live with and very self oriented they would look elsewhere.  I am sure some guys end up with exactly that but I do think the appeal is more than just beauty.
 
 

[OlgaH]

I thought it was accepted as truth, that Slav households were often run on basis of (some form of equality), but Soviet Communism changed that to one where men were pre-dominant and got the best jobs, opportunities, etc. If I am wrong, please correct me.

As to women being equal to men, why would they stoop to make themselves so low   

"Domostroy" -  “domestic order”
Home improvement, or How to beat your wife without knocking her teeth out 
http://russiapedia.rt.com/of-russian-origin/domostroy/


"But if your wife does not live according to this teaching and instruction, does not do all that is recommended here, if she does not teach her servants, then the husband should punish his wife. Beat her when you are alone together; then forgive her and remonstrate with her. But when you beat her, do not do it in hatred, do not lose control. A husband must never get angry with his wife; a wife must live with her husband in love and purity. You should discipline servants and children the same way. Punish them according to the extent of their guilt and the severity of their deed. Lay stripes upon them but, when you have punished them, forgive them."

[pitbull]

As yours is tiresome, defensive and chauvinistic.

I clearly identify my opinions, anecdotes and interpretations.

Don't like my opinions or interpretations? Put me on Ignore.

Hey mods, I have no problem if you move this exchange over into NHB where the wannabe minnows can pretend to be sharks.

I've also noticed that in the last month or so, ECOCKS postings have become increasingly abrasive, bitter and outward hostile towards FSUW, hence the stupid generalisations about how 90% of these women are immoral, damaged etc.
Personally, I sense some huge kick in the butt that happened to our hero recently, a new trainwreck story for our entertainment, Mr. ECOCKS?
However, with an avatar like that, I fully expected aggressive male chauvinism to come through at one point.

[OlgaH]

My perception of men vs women under communism was that the upper ranks were male dominated and based more on the old boy club or who you or your family knew and how connected they or you were but for the masses, men were expected to do the hard manual labor and the government was less interested in educating them and the women were more highly educated and we expected to work more in the fields such as teachers, doctors and administrators where that education was required.

Under Communism all the high positions were occupied mostly by men. For example if you take education  among school principles only 26% women, in industry women managers were 6%. In textile industry managers were men, but ordinary workers were women. Women's salaries were lower than men's salaries despite the same position.  Law-paid jobs were mostly occupied by women. Women also were engaged in heavy labor but again with lower salaries than men.

In 1970s a few women magazines that raised the issues of gender inequality in the USSR and women problems were shut down. In 1979 the literary miscellany "Women of Russia" was arrested by KGB.

[Boethius]

I also think that networking is strong in USA as well, but it does not become corruption because legal system works in USA much better than it does in Ukraine, and because people in USA are more individualistic and have some other distinct traits not common for Ukrainians (I am not saying better or worse, just different).

I think to some degree, corruption in Ukraine prohibits the development of a rule of law. 

I also don't believe it is individualism which restricts corruption.  Many Western European countries and Canada are far less individualistic than the U.S., yet most have even less corruption.

In Canada, I, too, have to wait about month for a passport, sometimes less (I think when I applied for my last passport, the wait was about 2 weeks).  But if I am willing to pay a higher fee to the government, I can get the passport in 2 business days.  No individual hands were greased, but government revenues benefited.

[Boethius]

My perception of men vs women under communism was that the upper ranks were male dominated and based more on the old boy club or who you or your family knew and how connected they or you were but for the masses, men were expected to do the hard manual labor and the government was less interested in educating them and the women were more highly educated and we expected to work more in the fields such as teachers, doctors and administrators where that education was required.I am sure beauty is one of the factors that draws people to sites like AFA and AWeb but I do think that most men are not looking for beauty alone.  Maybe I am wrong but if most thought they were going to get a woman who was a beauty but a real bitch to live with and very self oriented they would look elsewhere.  I am sure some guys end up with exactly that but I do think the appeal is more than just beauty.

Connections played a role in the party, but so did fealty.  One also had to have the right family background (i.e. working class).

Women were the majority of teachers/school administrators/physicians because under communism, these were not "high status" positions.  Still, as Olga noted, there were male teachers/administrators/physicians.

There were many women who worked back breaking labour in the USSR. 

[ECOCKS]

I've also noticed that in the last month or so, ECOCKS postings have become increasingly abrasive, bitter and outward hostile towards FSUW, hence the stupid generalisations about how 90% of these women are immoral, damaged etc.
Personally, I sense some huge kick in the butt that happened to our hero recently, a new trainwreck story for our entertainment, Mr. ECOCKS?
However, with an avatar like that, I fully expected aggressive male chauvinism to come through at one point.

Coming from someone with a name like Pitbull I take that with a grain of salt.

My name's Ed Cocks and I have always used it for my ID's and emails, what's your excuse? Did you pick your name after looking in a mirror or something?

Don't like the picture? Tough poop, move somewhere else.

[ECOCKS]

"Domostroy" -  “domestic order”
Home improvement, or How to beat your wife without knocking her teeth out 
http://russiapedia.rt.com/of-russian-origin/domostroy/


"But if your wife does not live according to this teaching and instruction, does not do all that is recommended here, if she does not teach her servants, then the husband should punish his wife. Beat her when you are alone together; then forgive her and remonstrate with her. But when you beat her, do not do it in hatred, do not lose control. A husband must never get angry with his wife; a wife must live with her husband in love and purity. You should discipline servants and children the same way. Punish them according to the extent of their guilt and the severity of their deed. Lay stripes upon them but, when you have punished them, forgive them."

Good old traditional values, try it on your FSUW and see which level of marital bliss it takes you to.

[OlgaH]

Good old traditional values, try it on your FSUW and see which level of marital bliss it takes you to.

Have you already tried?     

[pitbull]

Have you already tried?     

Looks like he did and it damaged his psyche a lot 

[Boethius]

[3/16/2012 8:43:52 AM] Evgeniya 39: I SHALL tell About MYSELF. I SIMPLY WOMAN, I HAVE TWO CHILDREN, CHILDREN are very important In my LIFE, I HAVE closely read through YOUR BIOGRAPHY, I LIKED YOUR INTERESTS, we HAVE SIMILAR much, I LOVE BEAUTY SALONS, I LOVE CARES Of the APPEARANCE, BEAUTIFUL DRESSES LIKE me, I ACTIVE, I WORKED In the LIFE much And I WISH TO HAVE the MAN WHICH TO GIVE CARE CONCERNING me, I LIKE TO DANCE the CAMPAIGN At CINEMA of TRAVEL, I the PERSON WHICH LOVE the LIFE

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[3/16/2012 9:39:16 AM] Evgeniya 39: When you wrote the biography .я I wish to specify, you want that your wife worked?
[3/16/2012 9:39:25 AM] Doug Wilson: Yes of course.
[3/16/2012 9:39:30 AM] Evgeniya 39: ok

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[3/16/2012 1:54:21 PM] Doug Wilson: Do you have any problem with our age difference?  I am much older.
[3/16/2012 1:54:42 PM] Evgeniya 39: for me important feel
[3/16/2012 1:54:45 PM] Evgeniya 39: not old
[3/16/2012 1:56:02 PM] Evgeniya 39: where i can work in america
[3/16/2012 1:56:28 PM] Doug Wilson: I will have to think about it.  Your
[3/16/2012 1:56:45 PM] Doug Wilson: English is good, so that makes it easier.
[3/16/2012 1:58:17 PM] *** Call ended, duration 23:33 ***

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[3/25/2012 11:14:57 PM] Doug Wilson: Both girls in High School?
[3/25/2012 11:15:05 PM] Evgeniya 39: in coleg
[3/25/2012 11:15:20 PM] Doug Wilson: Both of them?
[3/25/2012 11:16:17 PM] Evgeniya 39: yes
[3/25/2012 11:16:23 PM] Doug Wilson: Very good!

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[3/27/2012 1:03:58 PM] Doug Wilson: Can your children stay in Ukraine to finish college while you come to US?
[3/27/2012 1:04:13 PM] Doug Wilson: I did not realize they were in college already.
[3/27/2012 1:04:27 PM] Evgeniya 39: i canot withaut my kids go in usa
[3/27/2012 1:04:36 PM] Doug Wilson: ok.
[3/27/2012 1:04:56 PM] Doug Wilson: It is very, very expensive to go to college in the USA.
[3/27/2012 1:05:11 PM] Doug Wilson: How long before they finish college in Ukraine?
[3/27/2012 1:05:25 PM] Evgeniya 39: 2 years
[3/27/2012 1:05:30 PM] Doug Wilson: OK
[3/27/2012 1:06:08 PM] Doug Wilson: You would not want to interrupt their college education in  Ukraine.  It would not be good.
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[3/27/2012 1:12:11 PM] Evgeniya 39: beffor i have the same situation and man alwayse be angree becoz all be expensive
[3/27/2012 1:12:38 PM] Doug Wilson: I wondered if your children could live with their father until they finish college and then come to the US.
[3/27/2012 1:12:54 PM] Doug Wilson: Yes, it is expensive but no reason to be angry.
[3/27/2012 1:13:26 PM] Doug Wilson: It is best to explore possibilites to resolve problems.  No reason to get angry.
[3/27/2012 1:14:11 PM] Doug Wilson: Was the man an American?
[3/27/2012 1:14:29 PM] Evgeniya 39: franch
[3/27/2012 1:14:33 PM] Doug Wilson: OK
[3/27/2012 1:14:44 PM] Evgeniya 39: I and children this single whole, am useless to speak the Ukrainian woman about break with children]
[3/27/2012 1:15:18 PM] Doug Wilson: Yes, I understand about Ukrainian women and their children.   
[3/27/2012 1:15:59 PM] Evgeniya 39: good
[3/27/2012 1:16:00 PM] Doug Wilson:
[3/27/2012 1:16:30 PM] Evgeniya 39: I to not choose between the man and children
[3/27/2012 1:16:42 PM] Evgeniya 39: im choise == only kids
[3/27/2012 1:16:54 PM] Doug Wilson: I understand perfectly.

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[3/27/2012 1:18:02 PM] Evgeniya 39: and hope u good undst me
[3/27/2012 1:18:38 PM] Doug Wilson: What subjects are your kids taking in college?  Learning for what kind of career or work?
[3/27/2012 1:19:22 PM] Doug Wilson: Yes, I understand you very well.
[3/27/2012 1:20:51 PM] Evgeniya 39: economical
[3/27/2012 1:21:02 PM] Doug Wilson: That is good.
[3/27/2012 1:21:19 PM] Doug Wilson: It would be very good for them to learn English well.
[3/27/2012 1:21:38 PM] Evgeniya 39: yes

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[3/28/2012 9:19:42 PM] Evgeniya 39: im want one time in my life have man who say me d work relax at home ... u all life work
[3/28/2012 9:20:43 PM] Doug Wilson: That would be nice.  I would like to find a rich wife so I do not have to work, but the world does not work that way.     

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[3/28/2012 9:30:53 PM] Evgeniya 39: i want just man who care about me and kids
[3/28/2012 9:31:09 PM] Evgeniya 39: in ukr or usa
[3/28/2012 9:31:15 PM] Evgeniya 39: but i find

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[3/28/2012 9:35:25 PM] Doug Wilson: It sounds like I cannot meet your requirements.   
[3/28/2012 9:36:27 PM] Evgeniya 39: but be better know it now
[3/28/2012 9:36:34 PM] Doug Wilson: Yes, that is true.
[3/28/2012 9:36:47 PM] Evgeniya 39: and im sure all be good in ur life and my too.

Taking this back to the original topic, in the above, I see nothing that indicates an entitlement attitude.  I don't even see where Evgeniya says she doesn't want to work.  She says she wants a man who tells her to relax.  I think that is a different thing altogether.

It seemed to me as if she were saying she wants a man who will love and take care of her and her children.  Isn't that what family life is about?

[OlgaH]

Taking this back to the original topic, in the above, I see nothing that indicates an entitlement attitude.  I don't even see where Evgeniya says she doesn't want to work.  She says she wants a man who tells her to relax.  I think that is a different thing altogether.

It seemed to me as if she were saying she wants a man who will love and take care of her and her children.  Isn't that what family life is about?

Boethius,

as she said she is simply a 39 y.o. woman who likes beauty salons, taking care of her appearance, beautiful dresses, dancing and traveling. She has been working so much whole her life and now she is looking for a man who let her relax at home and at beauty salons while he is paying for her loves and her teens educations. She also agrees that the OP doesn't meet her requirements and she will look for a man who let her relax. 

Entitlement or not, but this 39 y.o. woman with 2 teens has a dream... (could be also "Santa Barbara" effect or some kind of "Desperate housewives" shows). Honestly and realistically, what her chances are? 

[Boethius]

I don't think she is realistic, but I don't think that equates to "entitlement".

[Spoon]

I don't think she is realistic, but I don't think that equates to "entitlement".

Agree 100% Yes, her expectations are unrealistic - but this does not translate to 'unobtainable'. Certainly her search may need to be more focused and will probably take longer....but for every lock, a key was made

[Misha]

Agree 100% Yes, her expectations are unrealistic - but this does not translate to 'unobtainable'. Certainly her search may need to be more focused and will probably take longer....but for every lock, a key was made

I agree, but there are times when unrealistic is also unobtainable. It is, however, difficult to know with certainty when the former becomes the latter.

[OlgaH]

I don't think she is realistic, but I don't think that equates to "entitlement".

It would be interesting to hear the woman's perspective why a man should provide her with beauty salons, beautiful dresses and her kids with education.

[Boethius]

It would be interesting to hear the woman's perspective why a man should provide her with beauty salons, beautiful dresses and her kids with education.

She never stated that.

[OlgaH]

She never stated that.

but she definitely gave enough hints what she expects