It has been said...

[noelscot]

that you will know if a FSUW likes you or not.
 
A more interesting aspect of this is, does she REALLY like you, or are there ulterior motives at play and some acting going on that could win an Oscar?
 
How do you expose the ulterior motives and dissimulation? Is there a way to stop it cold from the beginning? What do WM have that some FSUW want so badly that they are willing to live a lie?
 
Thoughts.     

[XMan]

A more interesting aspect of this is, does she REALLY like you, or are there ulterior motives at play and some acting going on that could win an Oscar? How do you expose the ulterior motives and dissimulation? Is there a way to stop it cold from the beginning? What do WM have that some FSUW want so badly that they are willing to live a lie?
 
Thoughts. 

How does anyone, male or female, regardless of country, ever fully understand what the other person is thinking, his or her motives, etc.?  Truly open an honest people are not all that common, IMO.

I've seen people date for 5 years, then get married and say, "I didn't really know him / her."

Unless the person is quite obvious (it's only about sex, money, etc.), many people are capable of disguising their true feelings / motives.

And yes, I am jaded....

[noelscot]

How does anyone, male or female, regardless of country, ever fully understand what the other person is thinking, his or her motives, etc.?  Truly open an honest people are not all that common, IMO.

I've seen people date for 5 years, then get married and say, "I didn't really know him / her."

Unless the person is quite obvious (it's only about sex, money, etc.), many people are capable of disguising their true feelings / motives.

And yes, I am jaded....

You sound like one of the modernist drama teachers I had in college. "It's masks underneath masks all the way down." I still maintain that a FSUW-WM relationship (especially when citizenship is involved) has a whole different bag of tricks involved. 
 
 

[onus]

I'd just say use your best judgment. I find it easy to get through the layers, or they eventually come out. Sometimes people also change as time goes on it happen in anything. They may have screwed you in the end but it wasn't necessarily one of their goals.

[ML]

You sound like one of the modernist drama teachers I had in college. "It's masks underneath masks all the way down." I still maintain that a FSUW-WM relationship (especially when citizenship is involved) has a whole different bag of tricks involved.

Sure, wanting  to change one's country of residence is likely to bring on some new factors.

But I doubt the basic techniques of how to fool a potential mate varies from culture to culture.

However, I have my doubts about how long a person can fool another,  if the other was not just living in a dream world and ignoring the incoming clues.

For instance, I have been with both women and men (not romantically with men !!) and could easily pick up on their false friendship, etc.

The false friend usually cannot keep up the facade minute by minute or hour by hour, let alone day to day over an extended period of time.

There is the (1) looking at one's watch frequently, (2) staring out the window while you are telling a story, (3) having a blank look on the face until they notice you are looking directly at them when the blank face turns to a large smile, etc., etc., etc.

And this is just when you are together.  When you are apart, the clues probably come from not timely returning phone calls, cancelling date plans, focus on what they want from you rather than what they can provide to you, etc.

[noelscot]

However, I have my doubts about how long a person can fool another,  if the other was not just living in a dream world and ignoring the incoming clues.

Bingo. Never interrupt the fantasy.
 
 

[GQBlues]

that you will know if a FSUW likes you or not.
 
A more interesting aspect of this is, does she REALLY like you, or are there ulterior motives at play and some acting going on that could win an Oscar?
 
How do you expose the ulterior motives and dissimulation? Is there a way to stop it cold from the beginning? What do WM have that some FSUW want so badly that they are willing to live a lie?

 
How would know for sure if a RW really likes you?
 
Phew! For anything that complex, you definitely need an expert to give you good directions.
 
PM lakecreek.

[noelscot]

 
How would know for sure if a RW really likes you?
 
Phew! For anything that complex, you definitely need an expert to give you good directions.
 
PM lakecreek.

What is your weird obsession with lakecreek? Do you actually have anything valuable to contribute to the thread? The thread was started in the spirit of the Socratic method, but you have reduced it to ad hominem attacks that do not further the dialogue. Of course, you know everything and have never been fooled in your entire life, but some people may benefit from discussing the deceitful methods bad FSUW will use to further their own agenda. 

[newjason]

Interesting topic Scott.

From my experience, I would have to say...

Do you Really want to know if she likes you or not??

Being involved intimately with another human being is a great experience.  But like anything worth having, there are always risks. Feelings are yours and yours alone. If you give yourself to someone, you are taking a risk, why? Because there is the possibility of love and happiness. Is it worth the risk?
I'd say yes.  If there were not chance of being hurt and loosing that relationship, then it would not be special, it would be mundane, and everyone would feel ho-hum about their relationship.
What makes it special, is the difficulty level.

Have you ever done something dangerous and crazy?
Base Jumping for example is something that I do that most people will never do or even attempt to do.
Why do I do it?
Because the feeling of being not in control and the fear of dying are VERY real and that is something that you almost never experience in your life.  Jumping off a cliff and falling to the canyon floor is something that changes you, changes your outlook and gives you a new understanding of how fragile your life is. Then at the very last moment, The chute deploys and I hit the ground and In that moment-- I am Pure and Human and Alive and Lucky as hell.

It's a lot like being in love with the one most special person you will ever meet. 
You have the feeling of euphoria much the same, you feel Pure, and Human and Alive and Lucky as hell.
The cool thing about love is that you can't control it
You can try, but you can chase it away if you try too hard.
It just happens, you can't force it, you can't fake it, and you can't keep it when you have it from another person.
All you can do, is accept it, enjoy it while it lasts, because like Base jumping,  It happens very quickly and then when its over, you have the best memories for the rest of your life.

Life would not be great, if it did not suck too.

To know if someone has ulterior motives,  compare yourself to them.  how much are you like this person.  If you both have a functional life without each other, then it is probably less likely that you will be used by each other. 

Ever think of dating a woman who already has her shit together?  LOL  Nahhh where is the fun in that?

 

BTW welcome back

[noelscot]

Ever think of dating a woman who already has her shit together?  LOL  Nahhh where is the fun in that?

 

BTW welcome back

You mean date an AW who lives in the same country as me, speaks the same language, has the same ethics, same cultural background, same relgious beliefs, and has a J-O-B? Jason, that's crazy talk!

[newjason]

You mean date an AW who lives in the same country as me, speaks the same language, has the same ethics, same cultural background, same relgious beliefs, and has a J-O-B? Jason, that's crazy talk!

I know! Right?
Maybe she even has a car and owns a home too!

She is probably on the Anti-RWD board forum right now posting the question, 

How do I know He is not trying to scam me?

[GQBlues]

What is your weird obsession with lakecreek? Do you actually have anything valuable to contribute to the thread? The thread was started in the spirit of the Socratic method, but you have reduced it to ad hominem attacks that do not further the dialogue. Of course, you know everything and have never been fooled in your entire life, but some people may benefit from discussing the deceitful methods bad FSUW will use to further their own agenda.

Socratic method? Geez...really? Well you can 'socractic' all the things in life as much as you want, I'd rather do what the good ol' Momski always told me...you can't tell right from wrong, stay home.
 
Truth of the matter is, every single man in this pursuit are likely different than another. So deductively, asking a polled sampling of men's experience in how they associated with women, men you do not have one iota of an idea how they deal with women to begin with, will only undoubtedly give anyone a very varied sampling at best to even attempt to extract anything objective out of it to utilize for themselves.
 
Is that Socratic enough for you?
 
Listen, you can't tell if a woman is genuinely interested in you at this point in your lives, then I suggest you stay home and save yourself a bus fare.

[Daveman]

  Jumping off a cliff and falling to the canyon floor is something that changes you, changes your outlook and gives you a new understanding of how fragile your life is. Then at the very last moment...

...the very last thing going through your mind may very well be your ass!   

[noelscot]

Socratic method? Geez...really? Well you can 'socractic' all the things in life as much as you want, I'd rather do what the good ol' Momski always told me...you can't tell right from wrong, stay home.
 
Truth of the matter is, every single man in this pursuit are likely different than another. So deductively, asking a polled sampling of men's experience in how they associated with women, men you do not have one iota of an idea how they deal with women to begin with, will only undoubtedly give anyone a very varied sampling at best to even attempt to extract anything objective out of it to utilize for themselves.
 
Is that Socratic enough for you?
 
Listen, you can't tell if a woman is genuinely interested in you at this point in your lives, then I suggest you stay home and save yourself a bus fare.

You know what Socrates said after he drank the hemlock? "I drank WHAT?!"
 
 
 
     

[noelscot]

This is a good article overall: http://www.imarriedanalien.com/?p=19


Here is a strategy to weed out bad women who are primarily seeking citizenship from good women who really like you for you.


1) Meet her in real life to determine if you two are compatible.


1 (a) Tell her you want to visit her about a dozen times and meet her family and friends and priest before you make any serious decisions about marrying. You want to do everything in the right way and not rush. This will take about 2-3 years, of course, because you have limited vacation days at your job, as does she at her job. Tell her patience is a virtue, and that you'll both be happier in the long run for taking the time and effort to really get to know each other before making a serious decision.


2) Tell her you are going to move to her country when you marry her. You've always enjoyed the culture and history. It'll be tough at first, economically, but you'll take an entry level job and learn the language. You have your savings, but most will be put in an escrow account for your children's education. The rest of your savings will be strictly budgeted for rent, food, clothes, utilities, etc. You'll be the breadwinner, but you won't be living like the Hiltons.  You'll establish yourself after about 3 years, but it will be lean times ("in good times and the bad") in the beginning.


3) If she likes you for you, not leaving her own country very quickly will not be an issue, because U.S. citizenship is not on the table AT ALL.   

[ECOCKS]

Agree with the concept of telling the gals you're considering moving there. Explain clearly that you'll be learning the language, getting a feel for the environment, setting up a "cosy" home and hoping for a job clerking in a store in the meantime.

Clearly state your desire for a traditional home and lifestyle. Be open about your intentions to enjoy your vacation every year and that you look forward to going to Turkey or maybe even Egypt someday!

If you will be in a major city outline how thankful you are that you don't have to operate a car anymore,

My belief is that you will quickly find out if the woman is seriously into YOU or the lifestyle you represent.

[noelscot]

My belief is that you will quickly find out if the woman is seriously into YOU or the lifestyle you represent.

The only problem with this whole flipping the script strategy is that it drastically reduces an AM's chance to get mixed up with an Irrawaddy cobra.
 
So what is the middle road (well, maybe more like the crossroads in Yekaterinburg/Tyumin where prisoners scooped up a last handful of Russian dirt before being schlepped in shackles to the house of death)?
 
Move to the FSU, find a trade (like teaching English), forget all this internet MOB fantasy stuff, try to make a circle of real friends, then date some ladies who are genuine.
 
The Bible says in Proverbs a good woman is hard to find....       

[ECOCKS]

The only problem with this whole flipping the script strategy is that it drastically reduces an AM's chance to get mixed up with an Irrawaddy cobra.
 
So what is the middle road (well, maybe more like the crossroads in Yekaterinburg/Tyumin where prisoners scooped up a last handful of Russian dirt before being schlepped in shackles to the house of death)?
 
Move to the FSU, find a trade (like teaching English), forget all this internet MOB fantasy stuff, try to make a circle of real friends, then date some ladies who are genuine.
 
The Bible says in Proverbs a good woman is hard to find....     

So, how's that a problem for the WM?

Teach English, drive a truck, lay brick or teach ballroom dancing...whatever floats your boat.

I think the biblical editor red-lined "downright impossible"........

[newjason]

Scott
from what i can tell, you are knee deep into your Mid-life-crisis and You are starting to panic a little and question your own judgement.
The mid life thing occurs when you finally must admit to yourself that you are now too old to complete the dreams and goals you had as an idealistic 23 year old.  Things got put on the back burner, you said, aww i have plenty of time to do ....this, or I can do .... that later..
and now you have arrived at today and you realize that life has been good, but you want something more.

Am i close?
 

[noelscot]

Scott
from what i can tell, you are knee deep into your Mid-life-crisis and You are starting to panic a little and question your own judgement.
The mid life thing occurs when you finally must admit to yourself that you are now too old to complete the dreams and goals you had as an idealistic 23 year old.  Things got put on the back burner, you said, aww i have plenty of time to do ....this, or I can do .... that later..
and now you have arrived at today and you realize that life has been good, but you want something more.

Am i close?

I have itchy feet, but I am not having a mid-life crisis.
I'm only 34. I have plenty of time to complete the goals I have set for myself. Currently, my goal is to complete an M.A. in ESL by 2014. It was helter skelter, but last week I took the MAT and passed it without even studying for it, turned in all the admissions paperwork, and today I met and interviewed with the program director. Aside from processing the paperwork, it looks like I will be accepted and start classes in May. This will open many doors for me in regards to traveling overseas. I will be able to be gainfully employed in FSU countries, preferably Russia (because the pay looks better), and teach English. This master's degree will afford me many opportunities to learn more about the Russian language and culture, which has always interested me since childhood. And I can teach domestically, too.


There is a proverb, "Don't tell me what a man knows, tell me where he has traveled." I really got the travel bug after going to Ukraine (despite a somewhat bad experience), and so I had to figure out what sort of trade I could do in an FSU country. Since I already had a B.A. in English, this is a logical choice that fits my natural abilities. Will I be a rich man if I do this work? No. But I will have more life experiences and opportunities to meet new people.


Anyway, I started this thread to look deeper into the whole "you'll know if a RW likes you" adage. I maintain that it is not that simple when you factor in that women are masters of dissimulation, and some bad FSUW are disingenuous with men in order to gain citizenship and a better lifestyle. So if a man is going to mainly date FSUW in the hopes of marrying them, how does he ensure that he is not being manipulated by bad FSUW with incredible acting skills? The surest way that I can think of is to remove lifestyle and citizenship upgrades (the ulterior motives of bad FSUW) from the relationship, and see if they like you for you.

[ECOCKS]

If you have any free electives, look into Russian literature.

Pages and pages become chapters and chapters of tedium until someone has a bowel movement.

THIS will help you understand the barren soil wherein sprouted the FSUW's seeds of want and desire........

It will also help you understand why your FSU students love Hollywood movies.

[Misha]

[size=78%]So if a man is going to mainly date FSUW in the hopes of marrying them, how does he ensure that he is not being manipulated by bad FSUW with incredible acting skills? [/size]

He should not ignore that little voice inside of him yelling out for him to run for the hills

[mendeleyev]

How do you expose the ulterior motives and dissimulation? Is there a way to stop it cold from the beginning?

Yes, but many guys aren't interested in either.

1- Time

Don't rush. Time has a way of flushing out the insincere.


2- Presence

Either party (and often it is the man who is insincere) can play honeymoon on a trip out of the country or she can get rid of the local lover for a week if that is all the time you have each year, etc.

What she can't fake or sweep out of sight, is you sitting in her family's living room over dinner and tea, not once or twice, but multiple times over multiple weeks. She can't sweep under the rug you sitting in the kitchen over cake while visiting her best friends.

Don't rush, make multiple trips in a year and don't go out of town until you're really planning a honeymoon. Be very afraid of a woman who wants to keep her from her friends, her family, her workplace, her neighborhood, etc. Many guys don't realize that the old Black Sea/Turkey/Greece trip idea so soon in a relationship is a great way for her to keep you from getting to know her personal life.

A sincere lady usually wants to parade you around to those important in her life.

[Faux Pas]

So if a man is going to mainly date FSUW in the hopes of marrying them, how does he ensure that he is not being manipulated by bad FSUW with incredible acting skills? The surest way that I can think of is to remove lifestyle and citizenship upgrades (the ulterior motives of bad FSUW) from the relationship, and see if they like you for you.

It never seems to amaze me the lengths many men that seek FSUW will go to avoid developing and fostering a genuine relationship. Really? You're going to get a masters in ESL so you can separate the good women from the greencard girls?

FSUW are no different in that they too seek a genuine relationship. Just like American women. If you expect a woman to be true, you must be true. Life is full of risks. Find the woman that really interests you, inside and out. Quit falling in love with pictures and get busy working on a relationship. That IMHO is the surest and quickest way to disseminate good women from bad

[noelscot]

You're going to get a masters in ESL so you can separate the good women from the greencard girls?

Whoah, wait a minute. Meeting women is not my sole motivation. I can do that here with a lot less headaches. Traveling and seeing the world is my primary motivation.
Plus, Ed already so eloquently refuted the false dichotomy of good women/bad women: They're all stone cold hoochies. lol