Are Women's Opinions Really Welcome Here?

[Boethius]

Directness is used to be perfectly clear on things. American infamous"politeness" clowds and twists reality.

I disagree.  If you grow up in the culture, you generally know the "code words".  You will understand the true meaning of the polite words.
 
My husband loves the politeness of Canadian society (which is generally more polite than American society, though that is changing).  He always despised what he describes as the "boorishness" of his native country.  His theory is when you have pigs in power, the populace follows suit.

[Muzh]

I don't suffer because I am ESL teacher (since 1981). I know what it is to speak "second language". It was acually my first "surprise" in the USA- how people are NOT tollerant to accents and mistakes.
It happens on this board regularly when AM show us how we are not perfect in English.
I know this trick- it shows their (AM) ignorance.
I don't remember you, Dave, do it, just because I forgive Amer. ignorance.
BTW, if you do remember you did it for me- it means you did it to purposely  hurt.

English is my second language and I've been here 30+ years. At the very beginning I was assigned a TA (teaching assistanceship) at graduate school which consisted of preparing recitations based on what my advisor submitted and then stand in front of 200+ students and deliver the recitation. Man, did I really felt sorry for the students.

It took me a lot of hard work to become conversational in English. However, very seldom some ignorant who knew only ONE language would do as you claim. After I insulted put the person in its place using 3 or 4 different languages, I would not hear any other comments. As I said, VERY seldom.

As a matter of fact, it was a Cincinnati native who spent a year and a half in Colombia (1 year illegally) teaching English who heard me and some friends talk in Spanish and he offered to help with our English. In return, we would help him with his Spanish. For the next 3 months I spoke to him only in English and he would correct me while he would only speak to me in Spanish and then I would correct him. We were well known at the Union because of this, two people addressing each other using different languages.

One more time, my experience has been very different. HOWEVER, my wife will agree with you. I have tried to correct my wife's English and she does take it personal. I figured that (more hoped that) she would appreciate the corrections coming from me than from a complete stranger who may also not have her best interests at heart. Oh well.

[SANDRO43]

That is the way that I see it as well, and I don't quite understand why this is derided.

Possibly because at times it's overdone IMHO, such as calling the deaf and blind acoustically/visually-impaired and street sweepers ecological operators.

The top here is that disabled people are no longer to be defined disabili but altrimenti abili, i.e. otherwise able . I doubt it makes the subjects feel any better in their condition.

[Muzh]

2) And in general there is a distinct tendency by men to be the protectors of women.  (Women don't have this tendency toward men [relatives excepted], so skewed results) These men will stand (sit or whatever) idly by while the women unmercifully trash a man; and yet recoil in horror when they see a man doing the same to a woman.  In the most kind interpretation, such men don't really notice the terrible things that are being said about other men and view through rose colored glasses.  The alternative interpretation is that such men are the epitome of the PWed man and are to be pitied.

I'll take exception to this.

How many pages on the "female entitlement" and how many on their male counterparts?

I'd like to know what are "the most terrible things" being said about men? So far, what I've gathered the RWs comments about WM is right on par with many men who engage in this adventure; conservative old farts midlle-aged men who have tunnel vision when it comes to having a relationship with a much younger woman from another culture.

Also, if you feel you have to be pitied, there must be a reason for that. I really don't see that kind of patronizing view from the RW at all. Actually, it is totally the opposite.

[Muzh]

I could have guessed, Doll . That type is known as the pineapple granade .
 

 
Here, let me lob one.
 

[Muzh]

From my experience Americans are taught to be direct and to the point, but the political correctness environment has clouded this a bit for sure.
The two are completely different issues although.
Also I believe that someone can be direct and to the point without being rude or insulting and I think this is the real issue at hand.
 
Some people use insults and/or rudeness to get attention (reactions) and quite often it does.

Gylden, you may be having some difficulty understanding the political correctness you say is clouding Americans way of being.

For example, today we say African-American, not Nigger.

Jewish, not kike.

Puertorican, not spik.

You get my drift.

You call it political correctness. I call it humility and humanity.

[Gator]

Gylden, you may be having some difficulty understanding the political correctness you say is clouding Americans way of being.

For example, today we say African-American, not Nigger.

Jewish, not kike.

Puertorican, not spik.

You get my drift.

You call it political correctness. I call it humility and humanity.

And respect most of all.  Neverthless, there is no PC term for redneck, and my cousins are not offended. 

[Gator]

I'll take exception to this.

How many pages on the "female entitlement" and how many on their male counterparts?

Maybe not a good example.
 
Could it be the page count is a result of the male members accepting the "male entitlement" thread and females denying the "female" thread?    
 
And the arguments have branched into related topics.
 
Or is this simply the one spot where the battle between sexes is fought, today?  Tomorrow it will be somewhere else.   It is mostly the same story.   

[Muzh]

Maybe not a good example.
 
Could it be the page count is a result of the male members accepting the "male entitlement" thread and females denying the "female" thread?    
 
And the arguments have branched into related topics.
 
Or is this simply the one spot where the battle between sexes is fought, today?  Tomorrow it will be somewhere else.   It is mostly the same story.

I'll give you that. That thread is probably not a good example. Everything else stays. 

[Gylden]

Gylden, you may be having some difficulty understanding the political correctness you say is clouding Americans way of being.

For example, today we say African-American, not Nigger.

Jewish, not kike.

Puertorican, not spik.

You get my drift.

You call it political correctness. I call it humility and humanity.

Muzh,
How in the world did you read anything racial into what I posted?

I find your post a bit insulting and uncalled for.
 

[Misha]

Possibly because at times it's overdone IMHO, such as calling the deaf and blind acoustically/visually-impaired and street sweepers ecological operators.

The top here is that disabled people are no longer to be defined disabili but altrimenti abili, i.e. otherwise able . I doubt it makes the subjects feel any better in their condition.

People will always cite extreme example, examples that are generally falsified, urban legends more than reality. However, changing the words was only one component of "political correctness" another was changing policies, practices and attitudes. Part of "political correctness" IMHO was installing ramps for wheelchairs and striving to ensure that those with disabilities can lead normal lives. In Canada, for example, universities will offer a number of services to help students succeed. Blind/visually impaired students have access to new technologies that will let them hear a textbook: a computer reads the textbook to them at incredibly fast speeds that would be unintelligible to most. These are all the consequences of "political correctness" that is helping individuals lead the most productive lives possible.

[Boethius]

Muzh,
How in the world did you read anything racial into what I posted?
I find your post a bit insulting and uncalled for.

I don't think he did.  I think he was just providing examples which prove that,  in some cases, PC is a good thing.

[Gylden]

I don't think he did.  I think he was just providing examples which prove that,  in some cases, PC is a good thing.

Maybe, but if so he could have well left out his first sentence.

[Muzh]

I don't think he did.  I think he was just providing examples which prove that,  in some cases, PC is a good thing.

Thanks Boe.

Gylden, exactly what she says. Notice that I started "For example..." and end "you get my drift."


There are many people that have never been on the receiving end and are the most vocal about political correctness being BS.

[Muzh]

Maybe, but if so he could have well left out his first sentence.

Yes, I could have omitted the first sentence if you would have omitted your comment on political correctness clouding our "directness."

[Gylden]

Yes, I could have omitted the first sentence if you would have omitted your comment on political correctness clouding our "directness."

Why would I omit something I meant? What was maybe lacking was a more detailed explanation. For example, when a woman is reserved to say she is a housewife, because of the fears of being judged by her piers in a negative way.
 

[Muzh]

Why would I omit something I meant? What was maybe lacking was a more detailed explanation. For example, when a woman is reserved to say she is a housewife, because of the fears of being judged by her piers in a negative way.

Well fine. I responded to your comment. Just as Boe said, it is the other side of the coin you are missing and I brought it out for you to see.

You think it was an attack?

[Gylden]

I did not say you attacked me Muzh. I said I felt insulted, because you indicated I had difficulty in understanding PC and then used only racial examples to frame it.
 
 

[Muzh]

Gylden, there was no insult intended at you.

I just putting things in perspective. That's all.

[SANDRO43]

However, changing the words was only one component of "political correctness"...

I beg to differ, here's a definition among many:

Political correctness is a term which denotes language, ideas, policies, and behavior seen as seeking to minimize social and institutional offense in occupational, gender, racial, cultural, sexual orientation, certain other religions, beliefs or ideologies, disability, and age-related contexts, and, as purported by the term, doing so to an excessive extent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_correctness

I think it's mostly verbal and attitudinal, what you cite I would define as proper social care for the less fortunate citizenry.

However, changing certain 'labels' may well have had as a positive by-product making the general population more aware of thitherto neglected social problems, and hence stimulating remedial action.

As another 'extreme' example, years ago someone put forth the idea of changing the name of our meritorious Istituto dei Ciechi (Institute for the Blind, founded in 1840) and turning it into a 'normal' school open to all children, on the grounds that the blind would then 'feel better'. Fortunately, the idea fell through, also as a result of the blind students and their teachers strongly opposing it.   

Istituto dei Ciechi, central Milan

The Institute organizes special visits for the visually-NON-impaired, conducted in total darkness to make one aware of the blind world: quite an eye-opening experience .

[Misha]

I beg to differ, here's a definition among many:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_correctness

I think it's mostly verbal and attitudinal, what you cite I would define as proper social care for the less fortunate citizenry.

Most of the strongest proponents of political correctness that I knew were not doing it solely to change words. The goal was to change the way people saw the world. To say "policeman" implies that a police officer must be somehow a man. To say police officer could be either a man or a woman. The goal was to make it acceptable for women to work as police officers, to make them equal to their male peers. In other words, though when people think of political correctness, they think of words that were changed, they do not remember the inequalities that brought it about in the first place.

[Donna_Pedro]

I disagree.  If you grow up in the culture, you generally know the "code words".  You will understand the true meaning of the polite words.
 
My husband loves the politeness of Canadian society (which is generally more polite than American society, though that is changing).  He always despised what he describes as the "boorishness" of his native country.  His theory is when you have pigs in power, the populace follows suit.

I am not sure I agree either.
You might question intellect of soviet and russian leaders, but we do not know them personally to judge their level of upbringing. Not all western leaders come from noble families too. Yes,  I do know code words. I am sure you remember Brother-2 talking about how he was taught at school, that "Jews live in Israel, Germans in Germany and Negroes in Africa" (c) The code words I learnt were pretty similar  - call things with their true names. Here is an example of american "code"for you. My son loves pork chops. I used to cook them pretty often for the rest of the family, because I am OK with them too, and whenever I asked my husband if he likes the food he would say "hmm.. its interesting". Several years has pasted before I finally figured that the word "interesting" in his interpretation means "this is OK, but i would rather eat something else". And its all because he grew up in oh so polite non-confrontational southern culture. Everybody smile all the time. Even when they fire you - they smile. Another example - you need to torcher  my husband with a hot iron to have him pronounce a phrase "this dress makes you look fat". I want an HONEST opinion and instead I get a smile and a suggestion to visit yet another store. It has got loads better now, after years and years of training, but still at times it drives me out of my mind.

[Boethius]

Well, I don't think my husband was questioning Soviet leaders' level of upbringing.  He was commenting on the lack of manners he witnessed, both in the leadership and in the public in general.
 
Yes, your husband's "code" about "interesting" would've been apparent to me right away.  So, it's just getting used to a different way of communicating.  But, instead of training, why not learn that Southern "code"?  It will be useful in general.

[Gator]

I asked my husband if he likes the food he would say "hmm.. its interesting". Several years has pasted before I finally figured that the word "interesting" in his interpretation means "this is OK, but i would rather eat something else".

That is not Southern code.  He is just polite.  Oddly, my Cossack woman says exactly the same about food she does not want.  She did it even when she knew only 200 words of English.   For example, "pivo not interesting."

Donna, how many times did you hear, "Yer not from around here, are ya?"     By the way, that is an impolite expression.  A kinder expression would be:  "Bless your lil' heart."  Does you husband ever think you become ornery at times (not to be confused with horny ).   

[Darth_Budda]

And respect most of all.  Neverthless, there is no PC term for redneck, and my cousins are not offended. 

Educated Hillbilly....


Political correctness is a tough one..

Retard -> Handicapped -> Disabled -> Impaired
Next year it will be something else...

I live very close to a Indian reservation.
We didn't play Cowboys and Indians When we were kids....


I like women with a bit of attitude "Firecracker", It's a good trait to pass on to your kids... So they won't get pushed around...