View from a married guy

[Muzh]

The attached was written by a good friend in response to the Moscow Times article "Why many Russians feel they are nothing" and he gave me permission to post it here. I'm trying to get him to sign up with this forum but at the time he is busy.

I read the article. It's depressing. What a shame.... I met many people on my trips, the young ones seemed to be more alive. Most of the older ones did seem to appreciate the small things in life. A few were dreary.

As an outsider it's hard for me to imagine a whole nation like this, but I can understand it might affect some percentage of the population. The questions are: what percentage? and how does a WM rule out an otherwise great lady who may be infected deep in her inner core with this psychological disillusionment?

We often hear about WM/RW relationships that are going fine and then "all of the sudden" as if from out of nowhere, the RW will "act out" with previously unthinkable behavior and kill the marriage. It's as if a form of "Marriage Seppuku" (aka "Marriage Hara-kiri" or "Marriage Suidicde") is going on. (Yes, you may give me credit... "Anonymous from RBL"  for coining the phrase in this context LOL) Anyway, we on these forums have heard about this phenomenon enough that it cannot be ignored and is a significant risk that any WM must be prepared for when he marries a FSU/W.

Some may argue that with any marriage (AM/AW for instance) the same risk exists. I beleive not. There is significant risk (approximately 50% chance of failure in any marriage in the west). But AM take on additional risk when they marry a foreign woman. This is a very small list of additional risks a WM takes on when he ventures into the FSU:

1. Intercultural Risk
2. Language / Communication Risk
3. "Stepping Stool"  "Ladder Climbing Risk"
4.  Financial Risk -

• Care for foreign Relatives
• Additional Education in the West
• Travel Expenses - "To and Fro" for the AM, the FSU/W, the children, and occasionally the parents of the bride
• Potential Extravagant Expenditures (We AM all think we are good "economists" (you can look that word up). But if we really try to instill an economic discipline (I am not talking about being cheap or frugal but working towards future goals) we are at risk of being considered "cheap" or "greedy" either by our RW wife or her RW GF's (girl friends) or her family.
• The I-864 Affidavit of Support (AM do not sign one of these when marrying a fellow citizen or "resident alien").

There are more but I'm not writing a thesis on the subject so I"ll stop there. The point is that we can love these women and it can still be a disaster. So, how to protect against that? Bob xxxxx lived there for 6 months (actually, I applaud this move and recommend it for those who "can"), but he still got burned badly. I waited 18 months to marry plus an additional 3 years to have children with my UW and thought we had a solid relationship, but still got burned badly.  I know of others who were together only a few days before deciding to get married and 8+ years later they are still happily married!

So here is the critical question:

HOW does one determine if she is the right one for him? So that in the longer term, both parties are happy and share a mutually rewarding life together. They share in the ups and downs and they help support each other emotionally, physically, financially, etc. That there is a true spirit of love, respect, companionship? HOW does one see the red flags, know them, understand them, interpret them appropriately to avoid a problem down the road? We all know that if you have a negative attitude and are afraid of getting bit or always looking for a scammer, you will get bit and/or find your scammer. .... Meaning that it is important to be open, honest, optimistic, but not blind nor irrational in your search.

[Misha]

The challenge IMHO is not knowing for sure whether there is compatibility, rather ensuring that you do not ignore/block out/muzzle your intuition or inner voice, rationalizing away the irrational. People sadly believe when all the evidence is contradictory, write off bad behaviour as "cultural" and are convinced that the problems that are already evident after days will magically solve themselves or go away when they are married and living together.

[Bruce]

This thread should go to "Starting Out" section also!

[Olly]

 But AM take on additional risk when they marry a foreign woman. This is a very small list of additional risks a WM takes on when he ventures into the FSU:

What about women. Did you think how much risks we take on when we marry a foreign man? You have risk with few thousands dollars and broken heart. RW lost all when she marry a foreign man: family, friends, job. She go in the unknown. She have no job (and no one knows when she'll find it), have not good knowledge of language, and she have kids who need school and etc.  And if she come back to Russia/Ukraina it will be VERY hard to find a new good job and back to normal life.
Women take on risk not less!

[civi68]

This is a difficult topic since guys can do everything right and the woman appears to be a good one and then months or years later it becomes the opposite. I would say signs to look for early in the relationship include large age differences (10+ years), an average guy having a very attractive woman, the woman likes to spend beyond the couple's means for any reason as opposed to investing for the relationship's future (the marriage should come first before adult children or parents!), the woman preferring the company of her friends or group socializing as opposed to being with the husband, the woman being attention/sensation seeking, unrealistic financial expectations, etc.
   As you noted, some of the risks go along with the territory. Bringing an attractive, physically fit woman into a country where 70% of women are overweight and many men don't have a woman when she lived in a country that was the opposite may change a woman. A woman may want a nice guy but years later re-evaluate her situation which usually translates in her mind, "I don't love him anymore." So, just having an attractive woman involves some risk that you can't do much about. Guys will pursue her when she goes to the store,  if she joins a US dating site, 10 emails a day will come, etc. So, if you can find a woman that doesn't feel years later that she had to settle for you, you made it!

[civi68]

To add to my previous post, the ladder climbing and financial risks seem to be the biggest ones from my and other guy's experiences. Many of the FSU women I met asked me why I was not married and why so many guys can't find an American woman. It may be hard for them to grasp the attention and choices they could have in the US.
  In contrast, most AW as attractive as the RW we pursue, know their status so some guys don't get into the trading up because they were never even considered. I really don't buy the "AW are too independent and have good jobs so they don't want a man." I believe dating preferences result from supply and demand. Also, both men and women seem to have become more focused on wanting an attractive partner regardless of how they themselves look. Even from women I know that are great women who are devoted to their friends and family, when it comes to a guy, they become very fickle and particular. As the Shania Twain song says, "Don't get me wrong, I think you are alright, but that won't keep me warm in the middle of the night." So, you may first get a woman you think is great with good values only to find later that her mind has changed since her circumstances changed. Just because a woman is kind, loyal, and relationship oriented doesn't mean she will be that way to a particular man. Men can be this way, too.
   As for finances, the problem is that one of the reasons many FSU women choose international dating is the belief of a better financial situation. For some men, a good finances translates into, "I am responsible with my money, budget wisely, and save for retirement." But for some FSU women, this translates, "I want to shop, send money to my adult children and parents, travel, etc." How I have handled this topic is to be blunt with women about what to expect. Even some women that appeared to be sincere and talked a lot about their life goal of wanting to be devoted to a husband change when you set some reasonable limits. Some FSU think American middle class is the life of a six figure income.

[missAmeno]

...if she joins a US dating site, 10 emails a day will come...

Not sure how it is in USA but in UK 10 emails within 15min online is easy (when offline then yes about 10 a day)

[missAmeno]

...the marriage should come first before adult children or parents!...

As for finances, the problem is that one of the reasons many FSU women choose international dating is the belief of a better financial situation. For some men, a good finances translates into, "I am responsible with my money, budget wisely, and save for retirement." But for some FSU women, this translates, "I want to shop, send money to my adult children and parents, travel, etc." How I have handled this topic is to be blunt with women about what to expect. Even some women that appeared to be sincere and talked a lot about their life goal of wanting to be devoted to a husband change when you set some reasonable limits. Some FSU think American middle class is the life of a six figure income.

If any WM would like to find a woman that will stop support her adult children, I would advise to stop even looking in FSU direction.

[BC]

If any WM would like to find a woman that will stop support her adult children, I would advise to stop even looking in FSU direction.

missAmeno,

I see that here all the time in Italy.... 'kids' in their 30's, even 40's living with their parents.

I do believe that a huge part of parenting is to prepare their children for life outside the parental household.. that is one of the few things I find good about the US way of thinking..

My father told me that he would support me as long as I was going to school, but that if I finished or dropped out I would be on my own. 

That's the way it should be IMHO.

[missAmeno]

missAmeno,

I see that here all the time in Italy.... 'kids' in their 30's, even 40's living with their parents.

I do believe that a huge part of parenting is to prepare their children for life outside the parental household.. that is one of the few things I find good about the US way of thinking..

My father told me that he would support me as long as I was going to school, but that if I finished or dropped out I would be on my own. 

That's the way it should be IMHO.

BC, I been living in UK for over decade and so I know well western mentality on this matter.

But reality is that in FSU understanding about supporting kids is different and if guys expect FSUW became westernized enough to accept and live by western standards by some kind of magic stick, just because she considered option of looking for a husband from abroad, then I just politely say, they are very naive.
Westernization will happen to certain degree but after living in western country for years, not when signing up for international dating site and not even when meeting the right man and marrying him ... years after that. How fast or slow that process will happen and what understandings it will change will be individual for every FSUW.

Even that I live in UK and my parents in Ukraine, they still feel its their duty to support me. My mum posted over years countless packages (size and amount of things she posts always shock our friends here, she easily can pack 10kg-15kg of шоколадных конфет for Christmas for kids amongst many other things). On every kid's birthday she transfers them money and dosnt matter what I say, she will not listen 
My kids were born in UK and I have changed over years living here in many ways, still my support for them when they grow up wont be totally western ... more likely some hybrid option between western and FSU.

What puzzles me is why guys saying they would like to find FSUW with traditional family values but then decide they would like to cherry pick which of those traditional values she should have and which she should abandon and became western to comfort their understandings about life?

[BC]

What puzzles me is why guys saying they would like to find FSUW with traditional family values but then decide they would like to cherry pick which of those traditional values she should have and which she should abandon and became western to comfort their understandings about life?

missAmeno,

That is indeed a very good question.  Maybe the definition of 'traditional' in FSU differs quite a bit from that considered 'traditional' in other countries?

I think so...

I really think there are very few 'traditional' women left in FSU.. especially when young skirt is being chased.

[Boethius]

What puzzles me is why guys saying they would like to find FSUW with traditional family values but then decide they would like to cherry pick which of those traditional values she should have and which she should abandon and became western to comfort their understandings about life?

Because it is a one way street.  They want everything to make their lives easier, and not vice versa. 

[Patagonie]

To add to my previous post, the ladder climbing and financial risks seem to be the biggest ones from my and other guy's experiences. Many of the FSU women I met asked me why I was not married and why so many guys can't find an American woman. It may be hard for them to grasp the attention and choices they could have in the US.
  In contrast, most AW as attractive as the RW we pursue, know their status so some guys don't get into the trading up because they were never even considered. I really don't buy the "AW are too independent and have good jobs so they don't want a man." I believe dating preferences result from supply and demand. Also, both men and women seem to have become more focused on wanting an attractive partner regardless of how they themselves look. Even from women I know that are great women who are devoted to their friends and family, when it comes to a guy, they become very fickle and particular. As the Shania Twain song says, "Don't get me wrong, I think you are alright, but that won't keep me warm in the middle of the night." So, you may first get a woman you think is great with good values only to find later that her mind has changed since her circumstances changed. Just because a woman is kind, loyal, and relationship oriented doesn't mean she will be that way to a particular man. Men can be this way, too.
   As for finances, the problem is that one of the reasons many FSU women choose international dating is the belief of a better financial situation. For some men, a good finances translates into, "I am responsible with my money, budget wisely, and save for retirement." But for some FSU women, this translates, "I want to shop, send money to my adult children and parents, travel, etc." How I have handled this topic is to be blunt with women about what to expect. Even some women that appeared to be sincere and talked a lot about their life goal of wanting to be devoted to a husband change when you set some reasonable limits. Some FSU think American middle class is the life of a six figure income.

Amongst all problems well known : cultural difference, communication problems, difference in personality there are three points which can be a disaster :

The courtship waited by FSU women, "the man must spend his last kopeck, grivna for me, he never show that he is cheap"
The false belief that there is an average class in US or Europe which earn between 5 and 6$  grands worth per month.
They translate directly in ruble or in grivna wage's guys, which has the direct consequence to let them believe that spending is boundless.

The combination of these three things can be a disaster, in particular if the guy brags himself, if he starts from the scratch by spoiling the girl, he will be more under the risk as his wage is low, if the girl is high maintenance, if she has a false sense of reality, if she strongly relies to people around her who have no knowledge (or worse a shifted opinion) about western economy.

[Gylden]

Because it is a one way street.  They want everything to make their lives easier, and not vice versa.

Nonsense!

[Boethius]

It most certainly is not nonsense.  A man who wants to pick and choose what "traditions" are suitable from a "traditional" wife does so because he is selfish.  He is not thinking of his wife. 

[Daveman]

It most certainly is not nonsense.  A man who wants to pick and choose what "traditions" are suitable from a "traditional" wife does so because he is selfish.  He is not thinking of his wife.

I guess before we go down that path, it would be nice to have a somewhat accurate definition for a term rife with ambiguity as "traditional". 


So that would be the place to start... then opposing viewpoints would at least make more sense. 


What are some traditional traits/values/beliefs/practices/whatever that are (supposedly/purportedly) sought in women AND men?

[Gator]

You two ladies (missAmeno and Boethius) use terms "cherry pick,"  "one way street,"  " pick and choose what 'traditions' are suitable," etc. and it makes me laugh.     
 

Do you really believe the RW wife is compliant and has no leverage?   Many have survived against stronger challenges than an AM.  I will agree that agency hype may have given the AM some misconceptions.  However, reality will surface soon enough.
 
 

[missAmeno]

Do you really believe the RW wife is compliant and has no leverage? 

Not at all. If I would have to describe FSUW with one word then I would say resilient, traditional would not come to my mind. 

But this myth about FSU that would value family but will not support her kids is the most ridiculous one between all others about us.

[Daveman]

Not at all. If I would have to describe FSUW with one word then I would say resilient, traditional would not come to my mind. 

But this myth about FSU that would value family but will not support her kids is the most ridiculous one between all others about us.

Yes indeed, that is the truth. It is ridiculous that man would believe that a traditional woman would not take care of her children.  However, I don't believe that it's a good idea for a man to continue to breast feed into his thirties or beyond. That is where the idea of family tradition goes over the top.


Of course many parents help children even after they are adult weather in Russia, Ukraine, America, or Zimbabwe.


The funny aspect about FSUW 'traditional family values' is that she is extremely devoted to her children, especially male children, but her husband is exchangeable.  He's only a prop in the grand play.   

[calmissile]

It most certainly is not nonsense.  A man who wants to pick and choose what "traditions" are suitable from a "traditional" wife does so because he is selfish.  He is not thinking of his wife.

Yes, and he may be being selfish for the right reasons.  Perhaps his choice is choosing a woman that is in agreement with the culture she will be living in will have a better chance of success in the marriage.

As mentioned earlier in the thread, the American culture has always been to prepare your children to become independent and capable of leaving home after high school or college and accept the responsibilities of adulthood.  It does not mean we abandon our children when in need.  Oftentimes American parents purchase cars, make downpayments on homes and other financial assistance to help them get started.

Generally, American parents do their best to prepare their children for their future lives, living on their own with the expectation that the parents can then enjoy a more liesurely life in retirement without the financial burden of raising adult children.  I guess you can call it a selfish attitude if you like, but our culture has benefited from it for generations.  For the few cases where the adult are still living with mama and daddy, it appears there is no incentive to leave the nest and accept the responsibilities of adulthood.

IMO it would be unusual for an American man to marry any woman (including WW) that brings along adult children as part of the package.  I know of a few exceptions for AM marrying FSUW with teenage children, however if they are over 21 they cannot immigrate on a K-2 visa with their mother.  This can create further problems in the marriage as it may be years before the adult child can immigrate to the US.

[GQBlues]

Not at all. If I would have to describe FSUW with one word then I would say resilient, traditional would not come to my mind. 

But this myth about FSU that would value family but will not support her kids is the most ridiculous one between all others about us.

 

Just as with any other hype you'll read on these fora, when men try to justify their wife search in FSU and utter phrases like *traditional women*, it goes along the same grain as the *all/most AWs are fat* amongst others.

They are nothing more than code words for *I can't get a date at home*.

[Boethius]

You two ladies (missAmeno and Boethius) use terms "cherry pick,"  "one way street,"  " pick and choose what 'traditions' are suitable," etc. and it makes me laugh.     
 

Do you really believe the RW wife is compliant and has no leverage?   Many have survived against stronger challenges than an AM.  I will agree that agency hype may have given the AM some misconceptions.  However, reality will surface soon enough.

Most FSUW, when they first marry, do not have much leverage.  They are in a new country, with no job, and often, poor language skills.  In the U.S., they don't have green cards, and can be "shipped home" for some period, absent domestic abuse.  So yes, they don't have leverage initially.

[Boethius]

Yes, and he may be being selfish for the right reasons.  Perhaps his choice is choosing a woman that is in agreement with the culture she will be living in will have a better chance of success in the marriage.

Then he should not be seeking a "traditional" wife.

As mentioned earlier in the thread, the American culture has always been to prepare your children to become independent and capable of leaving home after high school or college and accept the responsibilities of adulthood.  It does not mean we abandon our children when in need.  Oftentimes American parents purchase cars, make downpayments on homes and other financial assistance to help them get started.

Generally, American parents do their best to prepare their children for their future lives, living on their own with the expectation that the parents can then enjoy a more liesurely life in retirement without the financial burden of raising adult children.  I guess you can call it a selfish attitude if you like, but our culture has benefited from it for generations.  For the few cases where the adult are still living with mama and daddy, it appears there is no incentive to leave the nest and accept the responsibilities of adulthood.

I don't think Ukrainians are different in this regard.  But the society is one where, historically, the ability to succeed, materially, has been restricted, so "making it" on one's own, has been difficult.  This was particularly so in Soviet times, when even access to housing in cities was difficult (decade long waits for apartments, for example, in Kyiv).  The view of supporting family is deeply ingrained.  My Grandmother, God rest her soul, supported her mother after she emigrated, and, on her mother's death, she supported her brothers.  Until the USSR collapsed, she sent goods that could be sold on the black market to her brothers, and, when they reached adulthood, her nieces and nephews (six families in total) and thereafter, cash.

My husband sends money to his family, often as much as half his monthly salary.  It is never asked for, but he feels it is his responsibility.  He has said the (future) responsibility to support his sister in old age will be his.

IMO it would be unusual for an American man to marry any woman (including WW) that brings along adult children as part of the package.  I know of a few exceptions for AM marrying FSUW with teenage children, however if they are over 21 they cannot immigrate on a K-2 visa with their mother.  This can create further problems in the marriage as it may be years before the adult child can immigrate to the US.

The reality is, those children, and their needs, will always be a first priority to almost all (not all, but almost all) women.  That's a reality of second marriages.

[Gylden]

I think in essence here the word "traditional" is being abused.
From what I have seen, this "tradition" is based out of economic hardship. The FSU families I know who have money, don't follow this tradition.
As far as family values go, what sort of a mother would move to a different country leaving behind dependent children? That would be considered child abuse in western countries. I personally would never be interested in a woman who would do this. A woman in this circumstance is just not available to move and leave her family behind.
As Boe points out, this CAN be a circumstance of second marriages. So the individuals involved absolutely must address these issues (and be in agreement) BEFORE marrying/moving.
 
As Gator points out, I find it hard to believe most men are "cherry picking", I think it is just a good subject to come up now and then, to remind folks of some of the complications/issues which can come up.
 
Interestingly enough I have seen this type of strong of family values before.
Chinese immigrants to Vancouver (with money of course). They were immigrating to Canada in large numbers. They would buy several houses on adjacent lots, knock down the houses and build what was refer ed to as a "super house", to allow the whole/extended family to live under one roof.
 
 

[I/O]

LOL, this one is always good from the sidelines and usually better still from the inside.
 
Girls, before you all lose your respective crumpets over this traditional thingy and who has which 'rights' where when and how, consider a walk down reality street - 'traditional' in the context way-too-often used by WM, means subservient and willing to provide an unlimited supply of the unmentionable, nothing more and nothing less.