Weddings - significance of colours and decorations

[Anotherkiwi]

I did a lot of wandering around on Fridays in my last trip to Russia and Ukraine, so I saw a lot of wedding parties having their photos taken (I was even in the churches for part of a couple of weddings in Kyiv).  Below are some representative photos that I took on that trip - a wedding party having their photos taken beside the Bronze Horseman in St Petersburg, a pretty bride in Odessa and a wedding car at the Cathedral of the Army in Krasnodar.
 
Simple questions - what do the sashes denote which the girls (chief bridesmaid?) are wearing?  Is it the prize for first runner-up?     The one in Odessa certainly seemed to resent the attention which I was giving to her friend (mind you, it was only about 10 or 12 degrees, so I thought they all deserved something extra for being out in the cold!).
 
What do the striped colours denote on the wedding car?  Are they supporters of a local football team?  This one is actually quite muted compared with many others that I saw throughout my trip.
 
 

[knighta]

I didn't have a clue so I searched on a search engine and you're answers can be found here

http://www.wumag.kiev.ua/index2.php?param=pgs20081/90

[Faux Pas]

That appeared to be a Russian wedding in St. Petersburg. How much are the differences in a Russian wedding as opposed to Ukrainian?

[Anotherkiwi]

I didn't have a clue so I searched on a search engine and you're answers can be found here

http://www.wumag.kiev.ua/index2.php?param=pgs20081/90

Thanks for the link - it's very interesting, but it doesn't actually answer my questions.

[Anotherkiwi]

That appeared to be a Russian wedding in St. Petersburg. How much are the differences in a Russian wedding as opposed to Ukrainian?

I didn't see any wedding ceremonies in Russia, so I can't comment on that part, although I'm sure that the ladies can.  However, the clothing types and photography appeared to be identical, so I'm guessing that it's all much of a muchness within the Orthodox Church.  I would expect differences at a Tatar wedding, and more and more differences the further east you go.

[knighta]

Thanks for the link - it's very interesting, but it doesn't actually answer my questions.

I might be wrong but doesn't this answer the question about the sash you asked for - If she accepted the proposal, she would give the svats long embroidered towels which they would put over their shoulders and chests as sashes. If she turned the proposal down, the girl would present the svats with a pumpkin (hence the Ukrainian idiom — daty harbuza which literally means: “to give somebody a pumpkin” and metaphorically — to refuse to do something).

[Anotherkiwi]

I might be wrong but doesn't this answer the question about the sash you asked for - If she accepted the proposal, she would give the svats long embroidered towels which they would put over their shoulders and chests as sashes. If she turned the proposal down, the girl would present the svats with a pumpkin (hence the Ukrainian idiom — daty harbuza which literally means: “to give somebody a pumpkin” and metaphorically — to refuse to do something).

Good point, but the svats are male, so I interpreted this as being the equivalent of the "best man," although in a slightly different way from in the West.  Maybe they then pass the sashes to the bridesmaids?

[mendeleyev]

Nice topic, Kiwi!

The sashes are sometimes different from the wedding towels. Each have their own purposes. (See my correction note below.)

Sashes:

They're optional. Some couples have them, some don't.

A Russian or Ukrainian wedding has some key differences from the West. There are no bridesmaids or best men typically. Some may have them, but it isn't a set tradition. Most often you have "witnesses." They are called Свидетели на свадьбе, witnesses of the wedding.

There is usually one female witness, свадьба свидетела, or more commonly the Свидетельница (female witness). Her job in the ZAGS/RAGS (legal ceremony) is to assist the bride and usually she is a close friend or relative, most often similar in age. The female witness or sponsor in church ceremony may be the same but is often someone different.

The female witness, the Свидетельница, wears a sash to set her apart from the other girls, if she wears one at all and often they don't. Sometimes she and the bride will wear colours not worn by the other girls, but these days that is not a hard and fast rule. She helps the bride with the planning and details of the wedding, and usually they are super close friends. A typical family in the FSU might not hire a wedding planner so the bride, her witness, and the bride's Mum often handle the wedding planning.

At the ceremony the bride and groom will receive a ton of floral arrangements. Those are traditionally presented quickly in the receiving line immediately after the ZAGS/RAGS ceremony. The Свидетельница, with the help of the свидетель, is responsible to keep tabs on those flowers and see that they go along for the traditional stops for photos and toasts. Some of these flowers will be placed at war memorial monuments, etc, but some will be kept for decoration at the wedding party.

And while the guys are responsible for arranging transportation for everyone, the ladies most often handle the decorations of the car. The car decorations usually are detailed around the hood, top, front grille, and the door handles. There is no tradition of tricking the bride and groom with tin cans filled with rocks and shaving cream plastered over the windshield. Most RW brides would be offended at such treatment just as many are offended with the American (rude) tradition of shoving her face full of cake icing. Often a guy finds that his lady views this ceremony differently and more seriously in many instances than the usual jovial wedding pranks in the West.

There is a legal aspect of the wedding witness too in a ZAGS (Russia) or RAGS (Ukraine) ceremony. They're actually the legal witnesses of the ceremony.




The guy witness is the свадьба свидетель, which is the term for a male wedding witness. If the bride so chooses to have her witnesses wear sashes, then he will wear a sash that typically reads свидетель (witness). His responsibilities are to the groom in planning for transportation, making certain that the buses or vans or limos are arranged, to help the groom make sure the restaurant is paid in a timely manner for the wedding party, to obtain flowers for the bride on the wedding day, help the groom secure gifts if there is to be a "ransom" of the bride on the wedding day, make sure the groom takes the rings to the ZAGS ceremony, etc.

He also is a legal witness at the ZAGS or RAGS ceremony. If he wears a sash, it is to set him apart also.

During the legal ceremony the two witnesses will stand either behind or beside the bride and groom, the Свидетельница by the bride and the свидетель by the groom.

During the wedding party, the two witnesses usually sit next to the bride and groom. They are usually on call to assist until the last guest has gone home. A Russian/Ukrainian party is typically different from the West. In addition to the normal fun of making toasts, dancing, etc, it is not out of the ordinary for guests sing songs, recite poetry, and play group games as well. The witnesses are often responsible to lead these various activities.

In some traditions the male witness is responsible for making sure that the groom has arranged for enough wine and champagne not only for the party, but for the stops the couple will make for toasts and photographs after leaving ZAGS and on the way to the party.

Most importantly, as the male witness is responsible for toasts and speeches during the party, part of his job is to make sure that he and the groom remain at least somewhat sober for the entire event. Some do a better job of this than others. 



Wedding towels:

The wedding towels mentioned previously are usually not these sashes. The towels, usually there are three, are in some cases more common that the sashes. Often the bride and her mother or a grandmother have been making the towels before the proposal in anticipation of the proposal meeting.

CORRECTION: my MIL who has both Russian and Ukrainian heritage reminded me that in Ukraine it is not unusual for the towels to serve double duty as a sash. She not only taught Psychology but also for several years a "home economics" type class at Moscow State and insists that I should have known this and must get on my knees to repent to all mankind.

Not all couples observe this tradition, but if they do, when the young man and his elder representative (father, brother, uncle, older friend, etc) call on her father (or family representative) to ask permission to marry, the prospective bride of course knows the purpose of the meeting and it is common to have the towels ready then. The towels, depending on the family, can have meanings such as these:
- 3 towels to some families represent the sign of the Trinity. When the couple have children the baby will be baptized and covered with this towel.- 1 towel will bind the couple's hands together during the church ceremony. It is the last part of the betrothal service. Remember that the couple are first "engaged" upon entering the church for the wedding ceremony. That is why no engagement ring is necessary.

-  1 towel is sometimes used as what we would term a rug. In an Orthodox wedding ceremony you will see the priest lead the couple from the church entry where they were just betrothed (engaged) just moments before up towards the iconostasis area to where the third towel or a small embroidered rug. They stand on that for the remainder of the church service up until the moment when the priest leads them around an altar table three times.






Sometimes the towels represent an additional "trinity" of two families coming together to form one additional (the third) new family unit.

There are lots of other unique things about an FSU wedding from the ornate wedding crowns held over their heads by sponsors to the special white candles held during the Orthodox ceremony to "wedding icons" and padlocks that makes these celebrations really special.Seldom does a couple incorporate all the available traditions and more likely the bride will choose those that are most meaningful to her/them.

One things is for certain, the ZAGS/RAGS ceremony may be "civil" in nature, but unlike most civil weddings in the West these events are filled with pomp and circumstance and special traditions even for the brief 20 some minutes of a ZAGS wedding factory where a hundred couples are all scheduled to one by one be married on a given day.

[mendeleyev]

Another often important difference from West to East is that the man goes to the home of the bride to collect her and her family on the day of the wedding. It is not uncommon for him to be responsible for the transportation and arrange it for everyone. The bride is usually being attended by the female witness and her Mum up until the time some game is played, ransom of the bride is one popular option but not the only one, that couples use to present the bride to the groom so they can ride to ZAGS together.

[mendeleyev]

How much are the differences in a Russian wedding as opposed to Ukrainian?

Depends on region to region and family to family. Some will look almost exactly the same, others have unique traditions all their own. The responsibilities are usually consistent (who provides and does what) but sometimes you'll run into a bride who never heard of a wedding ransom but used an entirely different custom to be greeted and gathered by her man, as just one of many examples.

[Anotherkiwi]

Thanks, mendy, that's terrific!
 
Now, about the coloured stripes on the cars...

[mendeleyev]

Now, about the coloured stripes on the cars...

Before I venture an answer, did you notice something in photo #2...look to the right of the two girls and at the white van. Do you see the decorated rear door handle? I'm guessing that parts of the van we can't see are also decorated.
 
 Okay, on to the coloured stripes on the car.

Mrs. M is traveling so I can only guess and perhaps my guesses will be wrong. In David Letterman style we'll count them down/up starting with #3.

Guess #3: The green stripes coordinate with either the colours of the wedding party clothing and so the green was added along with the traditional white.

Guess #2: The groom is an avid sports fan and the bride did something nice by incorporating his team colours into the car decoration.

Guess #1: Not knowing the city location, perhaps the green is symbolic of a regional or city flag.

Those are horrible guesses, sorry but the best I can do off the top of my head.
         
Maybe one of the Russian/Ukrainian ladies will come along and give the perfect answer and make it sound so simple that we'll all wish we'd of thought of it first!   
         

[mendeleyev]

That appeared to be a Russian wedding in St. Petersburg.

Brilliant observation, FP!

That particular statue, as Faux Pas identified, is called the The Bronze Horseman and is not only an impressive sight, it is a popular spot for wedding photos and toasts after the ZAGS ceremony. The statue features Peter the Great leading Russia into the future. His horse is stepping on a snake and crushing it, meant to symbolize those who resisted his reforms both in state and church. It is located on Senatskaya Plaza and faces the Neva river. The large yellow building to the right is the old Senate building from the time of the Tsars.

Trivia: During World War II the Russians hid the statue by encasing the huge stone area with a wooden scaffolds which were then filled with sand and made to look like a small hill. It worked and the German bombers never targeted the monument during the Siege of Leningrad.

I can tell you what is going on in this particular photo. This is a couple with their party after the ZAGS ceremony in Peter. It is a tradition after the ceremony for couples to visit famous and meaningful monuments where they leave some of the wedding flowers as a tribute, take photos, make toasts and often at some place they'll release doves or butterflies as the cameras whirl, of course.

Some cities like Peter and Moscow have so many meaningful monuments that a couple might visit 2-3-4 or even more as part of their after ZAGS photo experience.

In St Peter a popular wedding party destination is to rent a large yacht docked on the river or canal and have the party catered on the main deck.
   

[Anotherkiwi]

Before I venture an answer, did you notice something in photo #2...look to the right of the two girls and at the white van. Do you see the decorated rear door handle? I'm guessing that parts of the van we can't see are also decorated.

True, but in this case I didn't take a photo of the front of the vehicle.
 

Okay, on to the coloured stripes on the car.

Mrs. M is traveling so I can only guess and perhaps my guesses will be wrong. In David Letterman style we'll count them down/up starting with #3.

Guess #3: The green stripes coordinate with either the colours of the wedding party clothing and so the green was added along with the traditional white.

I don't think so - from memory I saw a lot of cars with green stripes (at different weddings), but I can't honestly recall squads of green-clad guys and gals!

Guess #2: The groom is an avid sports fan and the bride did something nice by incorporating his team colours into the car decoration.

This was my first guess, but that would mean that every groom is a sports nut, as I saw this on every car (not always the same colours within each group).  Does every male in Ukraine follow football, basketball, handball and/or ice-hockey?  What other sports are there which could be considered?  Green (with yellow piping) is the home strip of FC Kuban Krasnodar.

Guess #1: Not knowing the city location, perhaps the green is symbolic of a regional or city flag.

My post says where it was, as does the photo caption!     There is some green in the city coat of arms, but it's not major.

Those are horrible guesses, sorry but the best I can do off the top of my head.         

Maybe one of the Russian/Ukrainian ladies will come along and give the perfect answer and make it sound so simple that we'll all wish we'd of thought of it first!   

Thanks again, mendy.

[SANDRO43]

That particular statue, as Faux Pas identified, is called the The Bronze Horseman

Apropos of the significance of symbols, some countries follow a specific code (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equestrian_statue) for their equestrian statues whereby the position of the horse's front legs means that his rider died:

- In battle (both legs in the air, i.e. rampant)
- Of wounds sustained in battle (one leg in the air)
- Of natural, non-battle related causes (both legs on the ground)

Peter the Great's statue does not follow this code, and admittedly a rampant horse is much more impressive.

In downtown Milan we have the statue of General Giuseppe Missori (born incidentally in 1829 in Moscow, leader of Garibaldi's "Mounted Guides") which is 'correct' since he died of old age in 1911:

His weary-looking horse has always been the butt of Milanese jokes, such as "te pàret el cavall del Missori" ("you look like Missori's horse"), used to address someone who looks incurably sad or terminally exhausted .

[Faux Pas]

Apropos of the significance of symbols, some countries follow a specific code (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equestrian_statue) for their equestrian statues whereby the position of the horse's front legs means that the rider died:

- In battle (both legs in the air, i.e. rampant)
- Of wounds sustained in battle (one leg in the air)
- Of natural, non-battle related causes (both legs on the ground)

Peter the Great's statue does not follow this code, and admittedly a rampant horse is much more impressive.

Funny you mentioned that. Whenever I see an equestrian statue I just assume the code was followed. The only English speaking tour guide I had, happened to be on the one around the Neva and The Bronze Horseman. I asked the guide "Peter The Great didn't die in battle did he?" and I just got that blank stare 

[mendeleyev]

My post says where it was, as does the photo caption!     There is some green in the city coat of arms, but it's not major.

Kiwi, sorry that I missed that.

You're right about the green so I did some poking around. Still no definitive answer but the city of Krasnodar seems to like the green colour.


Photos:
- City coats of arms.

- City football soccer team logo.

- Performers from last year's July 12 "city day" celebration.


Cyrillic Alphabet note: For students learning Russian, the second photo posted here shows "K-r-a-s-n-o-d-a-r" spelled in written/cursive style. It is important when learning the alphabet to learn both the printed and cursive styles as often street signs, billboards and other forms of communication encountered when you're there will be in cursive forms or sometimes a combination thereof for artistic expression.
   

[ghost of moon goddess]

The tradition of decorating a wedding  with stripes is believed to have begun in the XVII – XIX centuries in Europe and is known as the bride's bows/ невестины банты.
Traditionally, R/U women had long hair and wore their hair in a plait/plaits down their backs. They wore stripes of different colors woven into braided hair or used them/stripes as elements to decorate their headpieces.
Wedding ceremonies involved boys (page boys  ) whose arms were decorated with the bride's stripes tied in bows. They  held pieces of rosemary  (called a bride's flower) and accompanied a bride in a church.
It was thought that  bride's bows would "guarantee a happy marriage".
In the course of time, bride's bows were used to decorate horse-drawn wedding carriages and nowadays colorful stripes (associated with bride's bows) are featuring wedding cars.

As far as I know there were 3 primary colors of stripes used in the wedding ceremonies:
blue - associated with confidence, security, keeping bad spirits and  misfortune away;
red - symbolized  love, passion and strength;
white – innocence and purity.

Which colors of wedding stripes do modern brides prefer to choose and what do the stripes colors symbolize these days? 
Sometimes I think that today the combination of stripes colors may symbolize nothing but a unique way to "stripe it up" for the wedding of modern brides with forward fashion sense.   

P.S.
In this country  many brides and bridegrooms prefer blue and yellow wedding stripes on their cars. Guess why?

[mendeleyev]

In this country  many brides and bridegrooms prefer blue and yellow wedding stripes on their cars. Guess why?

My guess:
- The answer begins with the Cyrillic letter У (U in English).
- The yellow represents fields of wheat while the blue stands for the sky, mountains and streams.

 

[ML]

In this country  many brides and bridegrooms prefer blue and yellow wedding stripes on their cars. Guess why?

These are the national colors of Ukraine.

Like the red, white and blue in  USA.

[Anotherkiwi]

The tradition of decorating a wedding  with stripes is believed to have begun in the XVII – XIX centuries in Europe and is known as the bride's bows/ невестины банты.
Traditionally, R/U women had long hair and wore their hair in a plait/plaits down their backs. They wore stripes of different colors woven into braided hair or used them/stripes as elements to decorate their headpieces.
Wedding ceremonies involved boys (page boys  ) whose arms were decorated with the bride's stripes tied in bows. They  held pieces of rosemary  (called a bride's flower) and accompanied a bride in a church.
It was thought that  bride's bows would "guarantee a happy marriage".
In the course of time, bride's bows were used to decorate horse-drawn wedding carriages and nowadays colorful stripes (associated with bride's bows) are featuring wedding cars.

As far as I know there were 3 primary colors of stripes used in the wedding ceremonies:
blue - associated with confidence, security, keeping bad spirits and  misfortune away;
red - symbolized  love, passion and strength;
white – innocence and purity.

Which colors of wedding stripes do modern brides prefer to choose and what do the stripes colors symbolize these days? 
Sometimes I think that today the combination of stripes colors may symbolize nothing but a unique way to "stripe it up" for the wedding of modern brides with forward fashion sense.   

Thank you GOMG! 

[ghost of moon goddess]

My guess:
- The answer begins with the Cyrillic letter У (U in English).
- The yellow represents fields of wheat while the blue stands for the sky, mountains and streams.

These are the national colors of Ukraine.

 Spot-on!

Bride and groom dresses by a famous Ukrainian brand inspired by the national flag of Ukraine and EURO 2012

Thank you GOMG! 

My pleasure