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Author Topic: How important is woman's English abilities?  (Read 20918 times)

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Offline andrewfi

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How important is woman's English abilities?
« Reply #125 on: March 28, 2006, 05:07:46 AM »
Ronin ~ are you going to answer the question?

Ain't the lack of thought a wonderful thing?

I am happy that you are all happy with your hard working women who can not talk with you. Perhaps on reflection it si good that sometimes you do not have to try to understand your wives/penfriends/whatever, nor they you. It makes for an easy life eh?

Let us chalk this up the 'no need to talk' meme along with the 'all Russian women are beautiful' and the all Russian women are "traditional'" delusions.

« Last Edit: March 28, 2006, 05:12:00 AM by andrewfin »

Offline swindoom

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« Reply #126 on: March 28, 2006, 05:51:08 AM »
Quote from: andrewfin
Ronin ~ are you going to answer the question?

Ain't the lack of thought a wonderful thing?

I am happy that you are all happy with your hard working women who can not talk with you. Perhaps on reflection it si good that sometimes you do not have to try to understand your wives/penfriends/whatever, nor they you. It makes for an easy life eh?

Let us chalk this up the 'no need to talk' meme along with the 'all Russian women are beautiful' and the all Russian women are "traditional'" delusions.


 

This will be chalked up to the "all non-English speaking FSU women are lazy and/or dumb" delusion.

Offline ronin308

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« Reply #127 on: March 28, 2006, 04:52:14 PM »
Andrew, we've tried to answer your question by showing you several mitigating factors which have nothing to do with intelligence or laziness.  You have yet to prove us these factors don't matter, so how and why should we answer your question when it doesn't appear entirely valid?

A comparison to math is very weak indeed.  After all math is required for survival, I don't see many women outside of certain skill sets who need to use english for anything other than meeting men.  I can say I lost my conversational Spanish after leaving high school because I simply had no use or interest for it. 

As several people here with more experience than you on both sides of the agency fence have tried to show you, there is little reason for a girl to go to the trouble of learning the language as most men are willing to accept a non-english speaker at the beginning, provided she can pick up the language quickly later.  Does this make her lazy?  Maybe, but then again you can have mitigating circumstances.

My personal answer to this question is that I understand the various reasons why my fiance had not continued to keep her english skills fresh and am satisified those reasons had little to do with either intelligence or laziness.  I guess in your mind these mitigating circumstances are "spin".  But things are not as black and white as you seem to put them.

As to my communications with my future wife, we don't have problems discussing politics, religion or other complicated subjects as well as correcting her own grammer mistakes after 6 months of english lessons I guess that while she meets your defination of being lazy or stupid maybe she really isn't?

You can ignore or insult the majority of the posters here like you have or understand that maybe the world is a little different than you imagined.

Offline Rando

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« Reply #128 on: March 31, 2006, 09:55:15 PM »
Rose said....

"My opinion is based on my own experience in the USSR and in the USA. I'm really ashamed to say that I was trained to be a teacher of English language in Russia. Why do I ashamed? Because even now I make mistakes. "

 

Rose ...this is one of the funniest things  I have ever read anywhere and it strikes at the heart of this discussion...it also makes me smile inside because these cute mistakes of grammer are most often endearing and fun.....

The correct question is .....Why am I ashamed?.....becasue even now I make mistakes...:-) Priceless my dear...

A common language is vital....but spoken language is only a part of communication...there is body language...the wink, the smile, the frown, the tear, the shiver, the touch....all comunication...

Heck I was married to two AW and I always struggled to understand what the hell exactly they were really saying!!!!! I failed to understand both times...:-)

BTW....Russians were mainly required to study English (then ..not now) because it was important for them to understand the enemy.


 

Offline rose

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« Reply #129 on: April 01, 2006, 01:03:17 AM »
Well, for me such mistakes aren't cute, they are embarrassing...

By the way, I've noticed that a lot people here write the word "grammer" instead of "grammar". I couldn't find the first version in the dictionary or online. But it cannot be a mistake, because a lot of people use it, so it became a part of speach, as I understand. Can anyone here to explain me this phenomenon?

Offline andrewfi

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How important is woman's English abilities?
« Reply #130 on: April 01, 2006, 03:25:53 AM »
Quite a few Americans tend to spell as they hear, rather than learning to spell. I think also that in 'closed communities' such as discussion boards, errors made by one are picked up by others even less skilled. Probably the same kind of thing happens on Russian boards, albeit that Russian is to a greater degree spelled as it sounds.

I hope that those who find these errors cute actually do something to correct them. (although I confess that I found my friend saying 'kidney garden' instead of 'kindergarten' quite funny)

Offline andrewfi

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« Reply #131 on: April 01, 2006, 03:36:40 AM »
Ronin ~ There is no other standard for your satisfaction than your satisfaction. As is so often the case, it is not possible to show somebody a different point of view, especially when they have made a personal and emotional investment in it.

If you were in the situation in which I find myself then you too would understand somewhat better the realities and even more, what the women that you seek ACTUALLY think and say.

At the end of the day, excuses or allowances do not matter, it is performance that does. If you think that you can get to know somebody without a decent degree of shared verbal communication, then fine. I have not wavered in my understanding that some people's requirements in the area of communication are very low and that there are plenty of people willing to take advantage of the naivete of others.

If you think that preparation for a course of life is unecessary, and of no effect upon a successful outcome, then fine.

If you think that it is normal for a person to forget all they learned at school, even with daily reinforcements, then fine.

If you think a motivated person can not find time to make a success of learning or relearning then fine. 

The reality is that a motiveted person CAN find time to learn and relearn, it is NOT normal to forget entirely what one learns at school  and preparation for success DOES influence the opportunity for a successful outcome.

And still awaiting an answer to the question posed previously -  the absence of an answer getting daily more strongly indicative of the reality of what people are doing...

Picture of horse beng led to water, but refusing to drink...

« Last Edit: April 01, 2006, 03:38:00 AM by andrewfin »

Offline 55North

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How important is woman's English abilities?
« Reply #132 on: April 01, 2006, 08:50:30 AM »
Hi everybody.  I'm a newbie to this site and this my first post.  I just thought that I would throw in my own 'twopenny'orth" to this valuable discussion.
 
I am presently developing a relationship  with a Kyiv English teacher, whom I chose, through an agency, particularly because she would be fluent in English.  I was initially very surprised by odd character of her English despite her speaking it nearly daily for the best part of 30 years.  Having said that, her English is better than many of the men at my workplace, a number of whom are functionally illiterate. (a problem of Britain NOT shared with most of Europe incl. the FSU).  Of course, I hadn't realised that she had rarely met any native speakers, and only in recent (post-Soviet) years.  I found her to be surprisingly ignorant about British (or North American) society, yet her cat was named from a book by Kipling! (Bagir, since you asked.)  
 
She herself no longer teaches in school, but adult short courses.  A friend of hers, who teaches in school, invited me to speak to her class of 10, about Britain.  When the day came, I (a clerk, not a teacher) was confronted by all the English classes (70+), and the school director!  Questions and answers.  The 30 minutes alotted became 2+ hours.  It was great.  Of course, it was easy once we got talking about football, which, of course, is the true world language along with music!  And I was informed that I was the first Englishman to ever visit the school, and the first that anyone had met.  Then I understood everything.
   
Things are very good between us, and are likely to develop to the desired conclusion.  I love the idiosyncrasies of her English, but wonder whether she will take kindly to a suggestion to study, say, a heavy Business English course, to develop her English to a standard suitable for the office and appropriate employment, because of her age.  Yet, I don't think she will want to be a counter clerk at Asda (the British arm of Walmart), at this stage of her life.
 
Just my twopenny'orth!

Offline andrewfi

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How important is woman's English abilities?
« Reply #133 on: April 01, 2006, 09:04:47 AM »
55north ~ you make a good point about the character of the English usage and you are spot on as to why. When I was in Moldova I was with university students who had never had a class with a native English speaker. Often though, I think it true to say that their technical grasp of English (grammar, construction and vocabulary) would put many here to shame. My guess is that as cable TV becomes rapidly more and more accessible then the command of the spoken form will be getting better. (cable tv is very cheap in many places and given that tv is the cheapest form of entertainment going,seems to be almost universal in uptake as soon as it is available)

Offline ronin308

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« Reply #134 on: April 02, 2006, 01:38:25 AM »
Andrew, I think you are also being unwilling to see another viewpoint and or inflexible.  I do agree that of course it's up to a individual as to their satisfaction.

As to getting along without shared communication, have you read my posts?  I have stated that at least in my case I am now able to communicate very close to what I would with a woman from my own country.  The only roadblock has been expanding her's to my level which will take a long time as I read extensively that and of course what I consider the normal grammer correction that I've had to do with almost any non-English speaker who is still learning the language.

Her ability to learn the language was very important to me, I did not consider it important at the begining of the relationship.  I do feel that had she not been able to learn the language as quick as she did, I would have had to reevaluate the relationship.

I agree that preparation for a course of life is neccessary for a successful outcome, we disagree on when that preparation should begin, you say immediately when she enters and agency, and I agree with what the agency owners have said as well as my own conversations with women both in and outside of agencies.  My experience is limited to Ukraine only.

As to forgetting all they learned at school?  When it isn't used on a regular basis of course they will forget some, in many cases to the point they can understand but not be able to speak it.  As to daily reinforcements, that might be true in Estonia, but outside of Kiev it was hard for me as a native english speaker to do so, let alone someone who would have a hard time to understand in the first place.  Hell the airport hotel in Borispil has only 1 out of 4 of it's front desk people who speak english and they have many english speaking guests pass through their doors.

 I do think a motivated person can and will find the time, materials and ability to relearn what they have been taught.  I simply feel that this will not happen until her motivation is stronger than just being in an agency for western men, like after she meets one or two.  I know of stories of motivated women, Jack shared one with me of a girl who learned her english through her dates with foreign men. 

Just as you continue to ponder why no one will answer your question, I will continue to reply that the question lacks enough parameters for someone to be able to answer it.  It's interesting that someone who can see the many shades of grey in world politics can be so black and white in this particular area.  Human nature is not black and white.

 

Offline rose

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« Reply #135 on: April 02, 2006, 03:39:05 AM »
[user=307]ronin308[/user] wrote:
Quote
I am now able to communicate very close to what I would with a woman from my own country.  The only roadblock has been expanding her's to my level which will take a long time as I read extensively that and of course what I consider the normal grammer* correction that I've had to do with almost any non-English speaker who is still learning the language.
Oh, just give me a break!!! It will take many years for her to be able communicate with you to what you "would with a woman from your own country". Additionally, the problem is not just to communicate with you. Does she work? If yes, what kind of a job does she have? Does she have problems with communication there?

Don't know, maybe I'm too dumm or lazy, or maybe I'm a perfectionist, but I still don't consider myself being able to communicate on the native English speaker level. I remember when I studied English at the University in Russia one of my instructors told: "The more I learn English, the more I realize that I don't know it".

*although language is a dynamic structure, there is still no such word in it. At least, I checked several dictionaries and couldn't find it. There is word "grammar".



Offline jb

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How important is woman's English abilities?
« Reply #136 on: April 02, 2006, 04:35:44 AM »
Rose,

I believe what you are witnessing is called "Wish Fulfillment".  These men wish it were so, therefore in their minds, it is.

Common sense tells us that non-verbal communication is at the very lowest form of human interaction.  Anyone who actually believes body language, a smile, a nod, and a tear are sufficiently satisfactory grounds for matrimony is living in a fantasy world.  I've traveled all over the world and a few things I've learned is that smiling and giggles are a sure sign of nervousness when people do not understand each other.  Almost everyone will nod their head when asked a question when they haven't got a clue, it's an involuntary reaction, and aside from physical pain, tears very often indicate frustration.

All this talk about non-verbal communication is bunk.  It does not exist.

 

Offline 55North

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« Reply #137 on: April 02, 2006, 05:41:40 AM »
Rose and jb, I agree.
   
Last night, on the phone, I made an everyday innocent comment, with a smile on my face, and it was totally misunderstood, and this by an English teacher.  Still in the doghouse this morning.

The good thing, if she had only a smattering of English, would be that she failed to understand me at all, or thought she had heard me incorrectly.  I'm sure that if my relationship was based on minimal language between us, then matters would not have progressed to where they are now.
 
Having said that, something else occurs to me.  Does the likelihood of success after the RW has made the move depend to some extent upon how long you effectively cohabited (without interference) in her country.  That has been invaluable for us despite no major language problem.  The minutae of 'keeping house', bathroom sharing, getting the shopping in,  and hanging out with her friends and relatives (4 weeks out of the 5 months we have been in contact), appears to have established, in her friends' and family's mindseye, that we are 'a couple', which is how we feel.

Yes, this is very important, and probably not realisable for many as her accommodation (and other considerations) will not allow it.  If a couple had already developed a domestic relationship in the FSU, it might go a long way to ameliorate the language problem.

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« Reply #138 on: April 02, 2006, 08:36:06 AM »
Rose, With the amount of new medical and scientific words in the English language, there are over 1,000,000 damn words easily. Many of those words have multiple definitions! Damn again. That is why it's said if you know 60,000 words then you are a genious! Not many people fall into that category. Don't let it bother you about people not using proper grammEr. Soon there will be no more issues. Read this news article that came out recently.

Brussels Belgium: The European Commission has just announced an agreement whereby English will be the official language of the European Union rather than German, which was the other possibility. As part of the negotiations, the British Government conceded that English spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a 5- year phase-in plan that would become known as "Euro-English".

In the first year, "s" will replace the soft "c". Sertainly, this will make the sivil servants jump with joy. The hard "c" will be dropped in favour of "k". This should klear up konfusion, and keyboards kan have one less letter.

There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year when the troublesome "ph" will be replaced with "f". This will make words like fotograf 20 persent shorter.

In the 3rd year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible. Governments will enkourage the removal of double letters which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling. Also, al wil agre that the horibl mes of the silent "e" in the languag is disgrasful and it should go away.

By the 4th yer people wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing "th" with "z" and "w" with "v".

During ze fifz yer, ze unesesary "o" kan be dropd from vords kontaining "ou" and after ziz fifz yer, ve vil hav a reli sensibl riten styl. Zer vil be no mor trubl or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi tu understand ech ozer. Ze drem vil finali kum tru! 

I Knev it! Efter ze fifz yer, ve vil al be speking German like zey vunted in ze forst plas becas zey vant to rul ze vorld!!! But ROSE vil be hapy zat evrivun vil be uzing propr GRAMER! Zink abut it, is zat vat u vant?

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Offline KenC

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« Reply #139 on: April 02, 2006, 10:25:17 AM »
Billy,

That was TFF!!!!

KenC
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Banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies-Thomas Jefferson

Offline rose

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« Reply #140 on: April 02, 2006, 12:44:48 PM »
AMAZIN, BILIB, IT VAZ FANI!!!

But seriously tallking I want an opposite: I want people stopped writing "grammer" as they hear and start writing "grammar" as it apperas in the language. Your example is funny, but demonstrates what might happen to the language if charge over it will be in the hands of those who writes "grammer".


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« Reply #141 on: April 02, 2006, 12:59:13 PM »
Rose, I don't think people will ever stop mispelling words no matter how simple a language could be. Looking back at the way I spelled grammar (gramer) using the Euro-English method, I spelled it wrong. It should be spelled "Gramr"
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Offline Bruno

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« Reply #142 on: April 02, 2006, 01:03:58 PM »
Quote from: rose
Þā Geānlǣtan Rīcu American is trēowiendlicu cynewīse þe ligþ mǣst in Norðum American. Hīe gebyrdaþ norþ Canadan and sūþ Mexico. Hīe habbaæ 50 rīca and āne trēowiendlice scīre, and habbaþ sume foldan mid syndrigum gradum sibbe. Man spricþ ymbe hīe, in syndrigum fiellum, swā þā Geānlǣhtan Rīcan, AmericaTemplate:Ref, þā U.S., þa U.S.A., þā U.S. of A., þā Rīcu, oþþe (leōþlīce) Columbia.

http://ang.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usa
Yes, these text is in old english... if you don't wish evolution of your language, you need to speak the original one... good luck :P

Offline ConnerVT

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« Reply #143 on: April 02, 2006, 01:05:09 PM »
Rose, it is a speling problem, not a grammer problem... ;)

Offline rose

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« Reply #144 on: April 02, 2006, 04:08:44 PM »
Bruno, I can give you a lecture about history of the English language, thank you for yours. My bachelor's project was related to this topic. Anyway, thank you.

But, we are loosing the point here: How important are woman's English abilities.

Offline Bruno

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« Reply #145 on: April 02, 2006, 11:39:07 PM »
Quote from: rose
But, we are loosing the point here: How important are woman's English abilities.
You are right...

For myself, i think that the woman's English abilities are irrelevant in the early stage... since a woman don't already know from where can be his future husband... but her abilities to learn a other language in a near future is important... if she have already choose a country, she can maybe begin learn by herself... and continue learn after the  first date... and continue once she is in the host country...

Of course, it is my point of view... i am more open about this since the probability to find a FSU women who already speak Dutch language is very very low... a very basic common language ( a few words ) are needed in the early stage of relation... and the common language need to grow in the same time that the relation, since more complex thema are aborded...

Myself, i have learn very basic english and Dutch in school... i was able to ask the time and reply yes or no... I have begin learn Dutch when i have stop work in Navy several year ago... 3 month work in cafe was enough... for the english, i have learn a little each day of my life... i don't master perfectly these two language but i think that people understand me...

What a people already know is not important... what she is ready to learn is important...

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« Reply #146 on: January 20, 2021, 01:51:35 PM »
How important are woman's English abilities.

It's my view that you absolutely must have a way to communicate and
that you have to have 1 million conversations so that you know that you
have common values and similar opinions on love, marriage, raising a
family, religion and other things.


 
FSUW are not for entry level daters
FSUW don't do vague
FSUW like a man of action. Be a man of action 
If you find a promising girl, get your butt on a plane.
There are a hundred ways to be successful and a thousand ways to f#ck it up
Kiss the girl, don't ask her first.

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Re: How important is woman's English abilities?
« Reply #147 on: January 20, 2021, 03:41:37 PM »
It's my view that you absolutely must have a way to communicate and
that you have to have 1 million conversations so that you know that you
have common values and similar opinions on love, marriage, raising a
family, religion and other things.

After meeting with a ton of gals on several WMVM visits, I would advise to NEVER even meet with a woman who cannot converse without help of a translator.

Doesn't have to be good English, but the more she knows the smoother your relationship will progress.
Winston Churchill.  The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

 

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