Russian society acceptance of RW who date AM

[JayH]

Guys, what is (in this case) "going there with open mind"?

In the context I used "open mind" it meant with no pre-conceived notions of wrong doing. Do not go there expecting to find something wrong. Go and see what unfolds.  Look,Listen.See,Think!!

Not what was being specific about previously-- but a generally open mind to all the different new things that will be seen and experienced. I do worry that many guys from US of A have too much of the " we are the biggest,greatest" ra ra syndrome that creates a bad attitude in general to other countries.It does not go down to well anywhere-- and many guys seem oblivious to the reaction of others to them.

[TheTraveler]

Is it something that a Russian woman would try to keep secret?

my wife kept me and our relationship secret from everyone except her parents -- until the days before she flew off to get married.

early on, i asked point-blank why, and she explained her reasons.

after marriage she did not keep me a secret.

we've been happily married almost 11 years and have three kids.

[Doll]

What were her reasons?

[ghost of moon goddess]

I have had bad sex with some FSUW.
In general, they are mostly not all that great initially.
Remember, before the arrival of Americans . . . there was no sex in SU.
But also, they mostly are willing participants and learners.

Strange, now that I think of it.
Before, there was no sex in SU, yet a lot of children being born.
Now, there is sex in FSU, yet the population is declining.
I need to re-read that Biology 101 textbook.

No need to re-read it. Let me clarify 

First of all, the phrase "there is no sex in SU" was taken out of context! 
1986, "Boston-Lenigrad space-bridge" hosted by Vladimir Posner and Phil Donahue:


AW: I'd say that television commercials have a lot to do with sex in our country. Do you have commercials on your television?
RW: Well, we have no sex here and we are strongly against it....   The audiences burst out laughing.
In fact, what the RW meant was: there is no sex on TV in SU and RW are strongly against sex on TV. Another RW tried to clarify this, screaming that they have sex – there is no commercials,   but nobody cared about what she really meant.

Bottom line:
There is a strong correlation between the amount of sex on TV and the number of births: the greater amount of sex on TV the lower birth rate. 

[newjason]

Thanks for your input. I just read your 7 yr story. Very interesting.
I'll try to answer the questions as best as I can.
1. She only pays for her visa and train to Moscow. If she flies from Saratov to Moscow. I pay that also. I pay all expenses while on a trip.

2. Very rarely. The last time that I remember was back in February.

3. Almost never. Only time was from Moscow airport on her way to visit me to get my address to write on a document. She would have to pay significantly more than me. She uses her company phone for SMS sometimes.

4. If I ask she is usually very brief. If I ask anythng more she usually sounds annoyed and sometimes answer in tone that let me know she was not happy about asking.

5. Her job requires about 2 to 3 business trips a year. She usually takes the kids on a vacation in the summer.

6. I know that she told one friend about Jamaica. I think she told her Mom. Beyond that I'm not sure. She did mention that some of her friends told that she should sign up for a frequent flyer program recently. I don't know what she told them for them to recommend that.

7. We both made an agreement not see to see anybody else back in February. We agreed to remove our profiles from the site we met on and not make an effort to meet new people. When we are together the sex is great for both. We both gave glowing compliments.

From what I wrote, to me she sounds very cautious, and does not want to share too much about her personal life. Not sure why. I know she is a very busy lady. With two kids and a job that requires alot of time at home also to write reports on her own time.
I'm not too concerned, I actually just think it is a cultural thing ( I hope). All of her clients that she sells to are doctors and pharmacists.

Hey JerseyGuy,
Thanks for responding.
You read my intro thread? LoL, wow you must have been up all night

I don't feel at this point you can make a judgement one way or the other.  What I would take from all of the info you provided is that I would not be surprised  either way.
Some tenancies point to red flags, however they can also mean that she is taking your relationship for what it is, and that is good.
You two spend more of the time away from each other, so until a more permanent living arrangement is made, I would keep your expectations low for now.
Are you two in love with each other?

There is a way to find out for sure , if you really want to know. 
Assuming you send the money to her via WU, you go to the terminal where you normally send it and ask if the lady you are sending to is receiving transfers from people other than yourself.
I would not recommend it, for various reasons, but it is an option.

[Jumper]

It is ask the RW..
so pay attention to them  not us silly WM.


Thoughts from one silly WM.
Its very individualistic.Some  women will feel the need to secrecy for some of the common and understandable reasons listed..
others would want to show you off after the first few minutes of deciding you are who they thought you were..(or hoped you'd be)
If it was a first trip, or a trip to her city and she dint want to broadcast it to everyone ,
it makes a lot of sense.
Also with not wanting her children involved , when its  not a man she knows well ,
or one she has strong sense of future plans with.
again it makes perfect sense.

It does seem odd after you have had  several trips including a trip to the USA to visit you,
in your home town. There is a little stigma to a RW visiting you..
Did you kind of feel the need to shield it from the would be gossipers?
Did she meet your friends and family?
There isnt a right or wrong deal.. as sometimes it is  simply to early in a relationship for those things.

If she's  cautious , i'd actually suspect it more shes cautious because she hasnt decided about the  future with you (perfectly ok as well,she does have two kids to think of)

The odd parts  to me:
how often she contacts you..it doesnt seem to be her sending SMS's or initiating contact much?
Calling is expensive, but still if shes into you id think shed call, just a minute or two, and you then call back.how about skype?
Basically  does she initiate any contact?
you wrote *almost never* ,that is not cultural, that is  odd.
Do you seem to be on her mind and by her ACTIONS (not words) show that?
removing a profile is one thing, and at that point i'd hope she has more gumption to make contact.
Annoyed when asked about further info in phone calls also seems odd. Everyone has bad days, but she should seem happy when you call,and you should b able to get that response at any *normal time*. So is she happy when you call when shes home, but annoyed or perplexed when shes at work? As there could be sound reasons for that.
If you ask simply how was your day? what did you do? is that the type question that is met with annoyance? or when digging further?
i understand her if it is when you dig deeper,but she should be telling you about her day
and life ,without prompting
(sorry to generalize , but RW in general LOVE to talk, your ears should be falling off!!
and phone bill off the charts)

[Jumper]

 Gut feeling from what you wrote so far is she is likely doing pretty well for Saratov.
Her hubby owned a pharmacy.Her ex maybe factoring into this quite a bit ,in a lot of ways.
financially, as he may still help her personally and with the children.
(as well as the ability to cause a issue if she decides to remarry and relocate the kids,or even thinks she might)
If so , shes going to avoid that subject like the plague, and speaking to you around the family or kids, (even friends) and her trips to see you explained away as business related.
Just my take,with very little to go on.





but I still find it odd she doesn't really initiate contact.

SMS is inexpensive..and even calls arnt that bad.
my (now) wife sent SMS's very often..she also called,often!
I understood it was expensive , so always told her hang up and i'll call you right back.
The point being she initiated a very good percent of the contact.
We also met in her home city first and i  met her friends pretty much immediately,
but i do recall she was a little uncomfortable the babushka gossip mill was working overtime.




She came to visit you in the USA, i'd sure be asking  that after several visits ,
and things progressing,.. why exactly she doesn't want me to visit saratov.

[Slumba]

Maybe the Russian Ladies can confirm or not - there are many, many stories in popular culture and children's books and films, of foreigner coming to marry a RW.

Such as "Scarlet Sails" which was first a book, then a well-known movie. 

There is also actual real history, such as Rurik princes who were not Russian but ruled Russia for a time, they took wives from local population.

[Jersey Guy]

Hey JerseyGuy,
Thanks for responding.
You read my intro thread? LoL, wow you must have been up all night

I don't feel at this point you can make a judgement one way or the other.  What I would take from all of the info you provided is that I would not be surprised  either way.
Some tenancies point to red flags, however they can also mean that she is taking your relationship for what it is, and that is good.
You two spend more of the time away from each other, so until a more permanent living arrangement is made, I would keep your expectations low for now.
Are you two in love with each other?

There is a way to find out for sure , if you really want to know. 
Assuming you send the money to her via WU, you go to the terminal where you normally send it and ask if the lady you are sending to is receiving transfers from people other than yourself.
I would not recommend it, for various reasons, but it is an option.

As far as love. We have talked about it. And we say we are both very close to a real love. We are not youngsters and both have been around the block. Not in a real hurry. As far as money. She never asked and I never offered. I have only sent her flowers. And airline tickets sent to her electronically.

[Doll]

Maybe the Russian Ladies can confirm or not - there are many, many stories in popular culture and children's books and films, of foreigner coming to marry a RW.

Such as "Scarlet Sails" which was first a book, then a well-known movie. 

There is also actual real history, such as Rurik princes who were not Russian but ruled Russia for a time, they took wives from local population.

So?

[Doll]

JG, I don't think you should have any worries. I do understand her behavior (I mean the reasons). I don't see anything wrong.

[OlgaH]

Maybe the Russian Ladies can confirm or not - there are many, many stories in popular culture and children's books and films, of foreigner coming to marry a RW.

Such as "Scarlet Sails" which was first a book, then a well-known movie. 

There is also actual real history, such as Rurik princes who were not Russian but ruled Russia for a time, they took wives from local population.

Slamba,

here is  the "Scarlet Sails" story http://scarletsails.gollandia.com/TheProphecy.htm Doesn't sound like a RW 

Rurik was Varangian. According to the 12th century Kievan Primary Chronicle, a group of Varangians known as the Rus'settled in Novgorod in 6370 (862), under the leadership of Rurik.

Also The Rus' People http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rus%27_%28people%29

Russia is from Rus' 

Russian men with their foreign brides and wives 
http://www.cosmo.ru/your_life/you_and_he/1180975/

[newjason]

As far as love. We have talked about it. And we say we are both very close to a real love. We are not youngsters and both have been around the block. Not in a real hurry. As far as money. She never asked and I never offered. I have only sent her flowers. And airline tickets sent to her electronically.

Jersey Guy
Well, if you are both very close to it then let's hope you both *** simultaneously 

But seriously, I think it's great that you both have found real love or something close to it. There is nothing more gratifying than being in love with the one you most desire and visa-versa.
It must be incredibly hard to see each other on such short romances and then have to be apart again.

Understandably you have some questions about her and why she does what she does. Coupled with the fact that you can't interact with her normally to better understand her habits/quirks/tenancies, of course you have to fill in the blanks yourself. That can be very dangerous. The more blanks that are filled, the more you create a fantastic image and of course good people assume that their parter will be good also.

Let me ask you:
How would you proceed if you did in fact find out what you fear is true?

I have to agree with Jumper (again  ) about her only 1 time initiating contact with you.
You did write on another thread that on the dating site , that she contacted you, and that was unsolicited. ? Is that correct?

So if She contacted you first, but after that never contacts you at all ( unsolicitied ) That is very very peculiar indeed. 
I wonder what would happen if you did not contact her for a while.
By no means am I suggesting this.
But again, like Jumper said,  I am just another silly WM .
FWIW, communication is not expensive. She can write emails send to your phone, call you on skype or messenger, can send you letters , and elaborate on her emotions from the time you spent together...

Take a close look at your actions and then hers.  Is It possible that you have laid an easy path for her to follow and the most difficult thing she has to do is say "yes" or answer the phone?  If you are the one doing everything , and she simply has to agree or play a long, then you may have legitimate concerns.

For me personally ,  If a woman I was with never called or sms or told me she did not want to be overheard speaking because of what other people would think,  she would be devoid of any contact from me again.  It does feel good to have the one you love , just call for no reason and say " i love you"   or "kisssss" . I can't imagine a love relationship without it. But then again, I am a romantic and I like that kind of stuff.

[ML]

No need to re-read it. Let me clarify 

First of all, the phrase "there is no sex in SU" was taken out of context! 
1986, "Boston-Lenigrad space-bridge" hosted by Vladimir Posner and Phil Donahue:

Are you sure there weren't two different episodes of this 'no sex' idea having been spoken by a RW?

I heard from more than one FSU person that it was said by an officious type of RW in a very formal type of interview . . . not a TV special like the one you posted.

[Slumba]

Slamba,

here is  the "Scarlet Sails" story http://scarletsails.gollandia.com/TheProphecy.htm Doesn't sound like a RW 

Rurik was Varangian.

Olga,

Thank you for your response!  The Varangians (according to the page you linked) were what Americans call "Vikings" I think.

The book Scarlet Sails is much longer than that link you posted;  the movie from 1961 can be seen here:

http://video.kylekeeton.com/2008/11/russian-video-scarlet-sailsmovie.html

I am sure that Alexander Grin (shortened from Grinevsky) was Russian :-)

[ghost of moon goddess]

Are you sure there weren't two different episodes of this 'no sex' idea having been spoken by a RW?

I heard from more than one FSU person that it was said by an officious type of RW in a very formal type of interview . . . not a TV special like the one you posted.

Sometimes the myth is stronger than the reality 

I am sure and I can say for certain that it was an ordinary RW, named Ludmila Ivanova, who "coined" the phrase "There is no sex here ..." during the Boston-Leningrad space-bridge in 1986.
Shortly afterwards, it changed to "There is no sex in the Soviet Union!" to become a popular catchphrase used in different contexts.  For example, this "context-sensitive" expression can be used to describe the anti-sexuality of Soviet culture, or (often humorously) to refer to the lack of objectivity when presenting Soviet reality 

[ML]

Sometimes the myth is stronger than the reality 

I am sure and I can say for certain that it was an ordinary RW, named Ludmila Ivanova, who "coined" the phrase "There is no sex here ..." during the Boston-Leningrad space-bridge in 1986.
Shortly afterwards, it changed to "There is no sex in the Soviet Union!" to become a popular catchphrase used in different contexts.  For example, this "context-sensitive" expression can be used to describe the anti-sexuality of Soviet culture, or (often humorously) to refer to the lack of objectivity when presenting Soviet reality 

OK, your story sounds plausible.

But was Soviet culture really anti-sexual.

The popular movie, "Moscow Has No Tears" showing steamy pre-sex scenes and it's theme of childbirth without marriage.

Another great movie where the husband takes the blame for his wife killing a person with her car.  He goes without escort to serve time in prison.  Woman at train station regularly has sex for 10 minutes or less with boyfriend when train stops, etc., etc.

Just a couple I have seen with fairly explicit sex themes.

[BC]

Looking back over the years on fora and first hand experience, I can say that a relationship with a WM can directly affect the life of a FSUW..

Friends - jealousy.. some 'friends' may be lost.  I told my wife that her 'real' friends will stick around and they did.

A woman who works may be hesitant.. dating a WM can cause an employer to take cause... 'Heck, she wants to leave anyway so I'll be proactive.  Words get around, complicated by jealous friends who can make sure the employer knows.

The 'grapevine' is long.

[Daveman]

Looking back over the years on fora and first hand experience, I can say that a relationship with a WM can directly affect the life of a FSUW..

Friends - jealousy.. some 'friends' may be lost.  I told my wife that her 'real' friends will stick around and they did.

A woman who works may be hesitant.. dating a WM can cause an employer to take cause... 'Heck, she wants to leave anyway so I'll be proactive.  Words get around, complicated by jealous friends who can make sure the employer knows.

The 'grapevine' is long.

I've noticed similar.  Perhaps it is all women, or just all people and I have only really paid much closer attention to RW while those near me kind of blend into the background of this behavior.

One distinct characteristic which supports that 'crabs in a bucket' analogy is that the goofball RW will stick by each other to the death, in the face of all evidence, etc etc... when things are BAD (notice on this very board how obvious RW scammers/players/pro-daters are often vehemently defended).. but when someone moves upward in some in a self improving way, the crap hits the fan.. jealousy, backstabbing, slander, gossip.. It's almost as if "Everything is great as long as it is bad, but whoever gets something good which doesn't benefit ME is fair game..."

Like I said, I've noticed this more with RW than with AW -- and that's probably because of the focus factor and that RW are more conspicuous an all fronts.

And of course it isn't all... I'd guess that out of every circle of 10 friends, there's only one or maybe two that are truly thick/thin genuine.  Those genuine ones, IMO, are the best of the best of people anywhere.

[Doll]

I  still think that her major concern is her ex. Ex and people at work.
  Neighbours too.

[Daveman]

I  still think that her major concern is her ex. Ex and people at work.
  Neighbours too.

Undoubtedly.

I can't think of anyone who would risk a detriment to self or family with something which is still in the very early stages.  I think men need to make a decent attempt at understanding her situation and potentially negative consequences and thus her hesitancy to expose herself and the relationship before she feels secure in doing so.

That being typed, I do, however, agree with Jumper that some of her behavior seems rather odd on a one to one level for a woman in a supposedly budding relationship.

[Doll]

Why is it "odd" if you understand the reasons?
If JG calls her while she is picking the kids from ex, she won't talk.
Or lets say it it a family gathering and he calls- she won't speak English in  front of them.
If it is husband calling- then it is another story.
It is "odd" for you, guys.
JG asked "Russian women", we answered.
Why doesn't she call? Do you know how much per a minute it is? I think $3.00. She raises the kids herself, so one call can cost her a lot.
 All this is hard to understand when you live here.
JG, you asked- we answered. There is nothing odd.

[Faux Pas]

Why is it "odd" if you understand the reasons?
If JG calls her while she is picking the kids from ex, she won't talk.
Or lets say it it a family gathering and he calls- she won't speak English in  front of them.
If it is husband calling- then it is another story.
It is "odd" for you, guys.
JG asked "Russian women", we answered.
Why doesn't she call? Do you know how much per a minute it is? I think $3.00. She raises the kids herself, so one call can cost her a lot.
 All this is hard to understand when you live here.
JG, you asked- we answered. There is nothing odd.

Fair enough but, why don't you explain "why" there is nothing odd about it? I noticed you didn't answer my earlier question   

[Daveman]

Why is it "odd" if you understand the reasons?
...

Her annoyance at being asked.  At that stage in the relationship a man can do no wrong... annoyance is what  marriage is for.... 

[Doll]

She is annoyed because this AM won't understand it! You all consider it "odd", for her it is not. Period.
 
Faux Pas, what question?
(BTW, if RW doesn't answer the question, it means she doesn' want to).