Age difference from RW perspective

[Jack]

Kvinna, you write " end this situation looks like the westerners earn money for selling MOB".
 
Kvinna, how does one sell a mail order bride? And as far as that goes Kvinna, what is a mail order bride? Can you explain in your own words?
 
Kvinna, I'm not trying to be hard on you, just trying to understand you, your mentality, where you are coming from and where you are getting the ideas and information you are sharing with us.
 
Are you married, do you live in Russia, have you ever had a western boyfriend?
 
Kvinna their are bad western men. Most guys on this board are disgusted by what we read and the actions of some of these men, but these low-lifes are in the minority. Not all western men, nor western marriage agencies are bad.
 
But I do agree that everyone should work together on trying to identify and expose bad or fraud marriage agencies, bad western men and scammer Russian women.  

[Muzh]

[user=130]Son of Clyde[/user] wrote:

There are plenty of "dates from hell" between AW and AM and I don't see web sites created.

Sure, because if you post something like a scammer list of AW in the USA your a$$ will be in court faster than a Baptist minister can take your 10%.  It's called slander.  However, if you can prove that some woman swindled money from you, there are legal ways to do it in this country and abroad.

Do you think these girls thousands of miles away and no money of their own would give a damn?  I think they are more concerned with buying food than hiring a lawyer.

[andrewfi]

Jack, as you know, having a number of women in a database and having the same number of active women are two very different things. AFA's representative has said that they do not keep their database clean, instead relying upon clients to tell them of outdated profiles, of course the beauty of that 'principaled stance' is that inmost cases a guy receives no reply and jsut thinks that he was not 'chosen', never knowing that the woman had no interest in him. Only if a mail bounces might he have any reason to think something amiss.

I have seen a figure quoted from an agency operator, a well known business, leader in the field that suggest a success rate of between 5 and 7% for their women finding a man.

I am not sure exactly as to the number of K1 visas issued for the US per year, but I have a feeling that it is, from Russia, in the order of 2000 per year.

So we have a higher figure of 40,000 women falling to around 30,000 women actively seeking an American husband in any one year. Now, we know that this agency is likely to be among the more successful given their promotion and reputation and I see no reason why they should give a different figure than is the reality. Chances are, most of their comeptitors are less succesful at finding mates for their women due to their less capable marketing. Can we also assume that there are at least as many women marrying guys in Europe and that by and large they are from the same population? Makes sense does it not? So lets double the figure and say that there are something between 60 and 80 thousand women actively seeking a foreign guy in any one year. Still not very many is it? Given the agency source's likely market leadership, I bet the real figures are somewhat lower and of course, many K1s never end up as marriages, but we can get the picture.

Now, you claim that many women will respond to an advertisement. Perhaps they do, but then, almost by definition, if they are not in an agency program, they are hardly 'active' they are passive, seeing a special offer and following up. Of course a fair few wil be in an agency and thus they would be double or treble counted. And that is where the idea about large numbers of women comes from. Double, treble and quadruple counting. I have been told that in a recent Russian tv show it was claimed that something like 20% of all Russian women of marriageable age would consider a foreign husband. Chances are that this number would be pretty similar in the US, Frnace or Germany.

But to find an estimate of the number of women actively seeking an American husband all you need to do is consider the number of K1 visas issued and the claimed success rate in terms of women finding a mate, nothing else is needed.

BTW, I am sure the success rate for men is much higher, but then the dynamics of that part of the market are very different.

 

[jb]

Andrew,

I am not sure exactly as to the number of K1 visas issued for the US per year, but I have a feeling that it is, from Russia, in the order of 2000 per year.

It's a small point, but according to my calulations the U.S. Embassy in Moscow processes a number just on the shady side of 4,800 marriage/family based visas per annum.  I didn't bother to sort through to determine if these were K-1, or K-3 visas simply because the results would be the same, i.e., a female from Russia left her home for the promised land.

Trying to make some sense of this thread, it seems to me the big bucks earned by agencies isn't in the finished product, but in the process itself.  Why would any agency wish to see a client with some disposible means, marry his dream girl and take her home?  He's done with them at that point.  Now if they can manipulate his passion to some degree, tell him that he can always do better, the next girl he dates will be more perfect than the last, don't worry about the age difference, Russian girls love older men, etc., etc., then the cash cow can be milked a bit more.  I also get the sense that a large portion of the income generated by this industry is not from having a given number of clients in town at any given moment, but by the amount of coorespondence that can be fluffed up at $5-7.00 per translated letter.

Therefore, in my humble opinion, the number of women actively seeking a foreign husband is immaterial to the relative honesty of the agencies.  If they have 100 or 10,000 in the database at any given moment doesn't increase or decrease their profitablity one iota.  The women are simply the commodity, the eye candy appeal that reels in the suckers.  While I would hope that it isn't completely true, with the other option being to sell these women to a brothel in Turkey, there should be some interest in seeing a few happy couples out there.

[Fiorella]

Kvinna, you write " end this situation looks like the westerners earn money for selling MOB".
 
Kvinna, how does one sell a mail order bride? And as far as that goes Kvinna, what is a mail order bride? Can you explain in your own words?
 

I am not Kvinna but I want to ask yourself - do you really don't know what does mena Mail order bride??? After that on every western men's sites men call so foreign women to whom they plan to marry??? Don't make us laugh!

By the way, I have read that call a woman mail order bride is mental abuse in USA (good law!) and even was precedents when foreign women get compensation from their husband who has call them so. Anyway, multiple marriage agencies, offered "foreign women for marriage" still use that!

Examples:

http://www.mailorderbrides.com/

Domain name: mailorderbrides.com registered to US sitizen!

http://www.singlebrides.com/ (Lithuania)

Single Brides marriage agency provides mail order brides. Have you met a Ukrainian or Russian woman already? Is your best friend married to a beautiful Russian woman? Each foreign man who has ever met a Ukrainian or Russian woman knows that the phenomenon of a Russian bride consists of simple things, as it may seem - femininity, beauty, her heart open for feelings, extreme devotion to children and, family-orientation. Let us not argue to what extent this statement is correct.

And at last, our favorite - http://www.anastasiaweb.com/ (USA)


[align=justify]Anastasiaweb.com is the fastest, easiest and most reliable way of making contact with the mail order brides throughout the former USSR. We have the largest database of ladies - more than 8000 active profiles at this very moment![/align]
You can fine more if you want.


 

[andrewfi]

jb, I checked. According to the document obtainable here: http://uscis.gov/graphics/shared/aboutus/statistics/TEMP03yrbk/2003TEMP.pdf in fiscal year 2003 there were 1814 visas granted to fiancees of US citizens to Russian citizens and a further 1195 to Ukrainians. (Table on page 93)

There were 272 visas issued to Russian spouses and children of US citizens, visa pending (k3) amd in Ukraine 110. (Table on page 97).

Interestingly, the total number of K1 visas issued in 2003 was over 24,643 (Table on page 102)

I guess I was about right...

Now, I think that you are correct in your surmise that women are not necessary to the process of the MOB business as it is conducted today. Most guys are happy to write emails to photographs and to reply to computer generated emails. Ask Marc how many guys have been on a tour to his city, Tver, in the last half year. I am sure that his attempts to find a new business model revolve around a shortage of incoming guys. He would do better ramping up his letter generating activities becasue the marriage bus has left the station!

The MOB business is now pandering to the same market as pornography and using many of the same techniques. Pretty women, subscriptions, huge 'choice' and above all, pandering to fantasists.

[Kvinna]

I would say scammer western men as well, because we also have the cases when westerners con our women for money 

 OK take care

[Bruno]

Mail order brides is a obsolete term who have a other signification in our modern world...

[align=justify]The idea of mail order brides was around for a while, since the early settlers would write back to their homeland for a bride.  The term "mail-order-brides"  was re-born in the 1980-s, when there emerged a significant demand for mail order brides from Philippines, Thailand, and other Asian countries.  The printed catalogues with women's photos, distributed by mail,  allowed American men to choose one or several potential mail order brides and correspond with them, and the agency would arrange the rest.  The demand for mail order brides was so great that it provided for a rapid growth of such businesses in the States. In the US, the INS still officially refers to the brides coming to the United States trough the help of foreign and domestic marriage agencies, as "MAIL ORDER BRIDES".   [/align]
[align=justify]In the early 90-s, after the Soviet Union collapsed and the "iron curtain" had been raised, there opened a new, greatest than ever "mail order bride" business opportunity.   On one side there are hundreds of thousands of new potential mail order brides in all those former Soviet Republics which now became new, independent states, who now are allowed by their authorities to leave their country, and really want to get out. On the other side there is even greater demand from American men who realized that Russian mail order brides are much more attractive for them than mail order brides from Asia. At the same time mail order brides from Russia are much closer to Americans culturally, and the language barrier is easier to overcome, because the Russian mail order brides tend to learn English faster and get better results,than Asian mail order brides.[/align]
[align=justify]When the Internet appeared, and almost every one knew about it (I estimate this was around 1995), the first few Internet-based mail order brides agencies appeared.  Those were the same mail catalogue companies who distributed the expensive printed catalogues with women's photos, and who now found much cheaper and more efficient way to distribute their product.  At this point the term "mail order brides" has become obsolete.  Actually it has become obsolete a long time ago, because mail order bride is not something you order and receive in the mail.   Nevertheless, it is still being used, even by official organizations, like INS.  I guess, as ironic as this is, the name "mail order bride" stuck because some people, who criticize this way to meet people, use this as a negative term, offending the women, and insulting their dignity.  The reason for their skepticism is simply the fact that they don't know anything about mail order brides business, and base their opinions on false assumptions.  If you think that you can just pay money, and point your finger at the photo of the woman you like, and in a week or so we will bring her to your door, then you are mislead by the term "mail order bride".   Mail order brides industry today is nothing like that at all.   The dating and the selection process is exactly like in your regular life, everything depends on who likes whom, and who is interesting or not, and who is good looking or not, and who is making a lot of money or not so much, etc.[/align]
[align=justify]And now, the bad side of view[/align]
[align=justify]Mail-order bride buying and selling usually involves marketing women from underdeveloped countries to men in highly developed countries, especially Europe, the United States, Australia, and Japan. Men select wives through mail-order catalogues and videos or they take sex tours that are arranged by mail-order bride agencies. Women in poverty who see no chance to improve their condition within their home country may make themselves available for these arrangements. Mail-order bride buying is both racist and sexist because it is promoted as an "opportunity" for First World men to find wives in other cultures who are less influenced by the women's movement, who are less independent, and who will serve their every need. Women who immigrate through mail-order arrangements are then trapped in a marriage without their own income and by immigrant laws that require their deportation if they leave the marriage. Mail-order bride agencies and schemes exploit desperate labor migration policies in poor countries whose leaders encourage immigration to other countries to find work. Women leaving their native lands for marriage abroad is generally an additional relief to their country's labor force. Under President Corazon Aquino, the Philippines became the first country to ban mail-order bride buying and selling as a human rights violation. The patriarchal culture base for mail-order bride trafficking lies in traditional family-arranged marriages--the transfer of daughters from father to husband, usually involving a payment in the form of dowry by the bride's family.[/align]
[align=justify]Make your choice !!![/align]

[Fiorella]

Some men are really sure that they can just chose any pretty girl from catalogue and get her by mail directly to his door. I have read on one of sites a story of one poor guy who ordered young model-looking girl from catalogue and paid for her delivery. And one sunny day he get big box to his door. What surprise was when he opened that box! There was young, beautiful, little white she-goat!

[Jack]

Fiorella, now I think you must have been reading too many Kvinna stories. See Fiorella, you can't do that in America, you can't just go to a catalog, say you want that one, make payment and get her delivered to your door. You girls cannot believe everything you read.

[Kvinna]

Fiorella, now I think you must have been reading too many Kvinna stories. See Fiorella, you can't do that in America, you can't just go to a catalog, say you want that one, make payment and get her delivered to your door. You girls cannot believe everything you read.

 

Hm dearest dear, we have never posted this stories on our site, as well as I am sure you have never read our site because you don't know russian...

so what elase you are going to declare here?

[Jack]

Kvinna, if I cared to read anything on your site I would either use a software translator or have my wife translate for me.

[Bruce]

Fiorella and Kvinia you two obviously do not understand how difficult it is for a man from the West to find,woo, marry and hold a girl from the FSU.  If you really think I can go to a catalog, pick out a girl, order her and have her delivered to me in a couple of days, I have a large cathedral to sell you in Moscow! 

Andrew, I hope you are 100% wrong on what the average "client" today is looking for.  It is a shame agencies that screen their female clients, know their male clients as much as they can and bend over backwards to make sure the Western men and the Russian women have the highest chance of fulfilling both parties dreams like Marc's agency, do not have guys banging down their doors to make the trip.   Marc's agencies fees really are low for what the guy is getting ie. a chance to meet screened pretty girls one on one with as much help as anyone in the 'business" gives.  Marc puts the needles on top of the haystack and cuts the haystack by a third.  When you are a picky guy like me, that is as good a chance as you are going to get in the FSU. 

[jb]

lol are you going to make proposal to me?

Kvinna, I think your safe, we've seen your picture, remember?





P.S. Bruno,

When you cut and paste the messages please avoid using the color red.  You may not be aware of this, but 1 in 12 men have some color vision deficiency, with red being the most common, green being the next.  Many of us just can't see what you've posted. We are not color blind[/b], just deficient in a small spectrum.  If you were posting to a female audience you'd be safe using these colors because only 1 in 200 women are thus afflicted, however it is the women who pass on this defective gene to the male offspring.

P.P.S.  That note should be taken to heart by anyone designing websites.  I will not bother trying to decipher a web site that uses a lot of red in it and I'm sure that one out of the next twelve brotherhood will do the same thing, we simply click "next".

[jb]

jb, I checked. According to the document obtainable here: <*snip*> in fiscal year 2003 there were 1814 visas granted to fiancees of US citizens to Russian citizens and a further 1195 to Ukrainians. (Table on page 93)
There were 272 visas issued to Russian spouses and children of US citizens, visa pending (k3) amd in Ukraine 110. (Table on page 97).
Interestingly, the total number of K1 visas issued in 2003 was over 24,643 (Table on page 102)
I guess I was about right...

Those numbers are probably correct for the year 2003.  Post 9-11-01 there was a huge dip in applications processed during 2002 and 2003, they were lucky to do 5 or 6 apps per day.  However the U.S. Embassy in Moscow is now processing on average, 20+ visa app's per day, and interviewing some 239, (365 days, less weekends and holidays) days per year, you can do the math as well as I can.  The actual schedule is here:
http://moscow.usembassy.gov/consular/wwwhcisk.html

[Bruno]

Thanks for the info about color JB... we name so people "Daltonien" in French... i have only try to make the positive side of view blue and the negative red... we have not a lot of choice in color for the forum and several are based on green of red ... i go try to work more with the bold function...

[andrewfi]

jb, I believe the link you provided is for ALL classes of visa?

K1s are but a tiny part of that work. If you look at the figures I showed you, you will see that there was a drop of some 15,000 approvals for all classes of non-immigrant visa between 2000 and 2003, but the reality is that there was an increase, overall in all classes except tourism which dropped by 35,000, between 2000 and 2003 and that the figures were actually remarkably stable between the mid 90s and 2003. In 2000, some 115,000 visas were issued, overall, in 2003 there were 99,000. When the effect of the decrese in tourism visas is removed, overall, the figure increases by 19,000 for all others including K1s. Now, given that the number of K1s is so small in comaprison to the overall figure, we can see that K1s were not penalised, that the numbers are at least stable and that the Moscow Embassy is very busy processing all kinds of visas, of which K1s are accounting for perhaps 2%.

[Fiorella]

Jack, I have read this story on AMERICAN site.

[Fiorella]

Fiorella and Kvinia you two obviously do not understand how difficult it is for a man from the West to find,woo, marry and hold a girl from the FSU.  If you really think I can go to a catalog, pick out a girl, order her and have her delivered to me in a couple of days, I have a large cathedral to sell you in Moscow! 

Andrew, I hope you are 100% wrong on what the average "client" today is looking for.  It is a shame agencies that screen their female clients, know their male clients as much as they can and bend over backwards to make sure the Western men and the Russian women have the highest chance of fulfilling both parties dreams like Marc's agency, do not have guys banging down their doors to make the trip.   Marc's agencies fees really are low for what the guy is getting ie. a chance to meet screened pretty girls one on one with as much help as anyone in the 'business" gives.  Marc puts the needles on top of the haystack and cuts the haystack by a third.  When you are a picky guy like me, that is as good a chance as you are going to get in the FSU. 

Bruce, we know very well, what is all process to marry internationally. But do you know, that it is very different in USA and for example, Sweden?

By the way, what do you mean with a chance to meet screened pretty girls and when we will have a chance to meet screened boys?

[Bruno]

[line]
a chance to meet screened pretty girls
[line]


Fiorella, if you check some agency, you will see only pretty ( physically ) woman between 18 and 35 year old... all short, large, old, not like top model woman are refused and send to trashcan...

Some agency judge the quality of woman on the physical... i don't agree with this method of work but i understandt it on the business side... the product need to be attractif for shell it...

It is a little like all these new site with naked bride... Yep, the man pay for beautifull "meat" but he never know how is the character of woman... but don't worry, one of the first advice to man who search a RW, it is "Don't fall in love of a photo"...

[Fiorella]

If you really think I can go to a catalog, pick out a girl, order her and have her delivered to me in a couple of days,

It is not me who think so - it is some western men still think so! And by the way, it can be made with such countries as Denmark and Norway (some other too) - woman can come to a man even by tourist visa, marry him and stay there for wait for wife visa.

[Bruce]

Fiorella, I am married to a Russian woman.  From my experiences living and travelling in foreign countires I realize that different countries have different cultures, laws, etc.  Russian women looking for a Westerner are welcome to choose a Westerner based on his countries immigration policies, but if they do this without looking at the individual they are potentially marrying I pity them. 

Fiorella, you sound like a nasty, bitter woman who has had serious problems with men.  It would be nice for readers to know your experiences with men and why you are on this board. 

I always welcome a Russian womans perspective on things, but I know darn well that Russian women are different, and that your views and attitude towards men are definitely in the severe minority.  In any event, when I was dating and met a woman with your tone my answer would be simple - Next! 

[Fiorella]

Thank you for your kindness and good opinion about my person, Bruce.  If you make  your decision about women this way, I can only feel sorry for your russian wife. How long are you married? Does she already has her permanent GC?

And I recommend you to read in my post what I WRITE and not what YOU WANT TO READ.

[Bruce]

Fiorella, the name of this board is Russian women discussion.  If you have a different agenda I suggest you write on a different board.   So, when are you going to tell us something about yourself other than directing us to your apartment rental business?  Those of us who communicate on this board regularly know our details fairly well.  Nobody knows much of anything about you. 

Again Fiorella, you sound like a nasty, bitter woman who has had serious problems with men.  It would be nice for readers to know your experiences with men and why you are on this board. 

In fact, I am fairly certain that until you give readers here that information you will be ignored, unless you actually contribute something to a subject.

[Fiorella]

I am russian woman myself and as this board's name is russianwomendiscussion, I have all rights to be here. You can open your own board, something like: americanmenonlyboard.com and establish there your own rules.

Please, ignore my posts.