From Heaven to Hell... with a broken heart.

[Faux Pas]

Ah, I see- holding hands and hugging)))
OMG! A  Russian woman on her first date with a 8yo child! Of course, there will be no affection in public.
One more thing, Mikey. You are "floored" because you think she keeps dating. Then you need to read more on this forum- everybody is recomended to date many women. So does she- keeps her options open.
I hope we don't want to apply double standards to men and women?
Read the other threads where men are going to meet many girls - 3 -4-5 cities and women "from the list".
I guess, it is ok for both men AND women.

C'mon now Doll, wrong thread 

[Doll]

But the right board  .
Ok, we can be "politically correct" and feel bad for Mikey, but this is the reality- both men and women look for what they want by "having options". What is terrible in her going to SPB? Or Moscow?
In terms of the board?
Did she committed on this date? She barely said "maybe". She obviously didn't like something in Mikey and it is ok! It was just a try.
 

[I/O]

men 50 Y/O studs are going to meet many girls virgins

[mikeyUSA]

Yeah, I'm 40.   and look 36.  I want to thank everyone so much.  Especially the 'hard ones' because I need this slap in the face.  I really do.  Please, and I do not say this wrongly, please keep it up... I really do need this slap in the face.   Hopefully, people will look at my 'extended' write up, and also comment on that too.   I really do need a slap in the face.

[I/O]

I keep going over and over in my mind

As they do.
 
Mikey: Go find some local action - it'll take your mind off it. 

[Doll]

Doesn't matter how old you are. Just keep in mind that RW are very reserved, don't invite kids on the first date and don't expect any woman to want to marry you. It needs to be applied to men too (no kids, no unreal expectations).

[Doll]

I didn't write that, I/O (what you quoted "from Doll")

[jone]

Mikey,

You seem like a sincere guy.   You're a little to old to act like the lovesick puppy dog, though.  Instead, I want to tell you some numbers:

I do business in Russia, not much but some.  One of my favorite people owns the Bank in Ivanovo.  He invited me there and while I was there presented me with some numbers.  If Russian Women are really what you want - and you want a quality woman, not someone who will jump from one relationship to the next.  Consider this.

Ivanovo is four hours outside of Moscow.  It is a city of about 400,000.  Of this number only about 20,000 are marriagable men.  Out of this number over 100,000 are marriagable women.  These are locally produced/monitored numbers and I am serious about them.  Ivanovo is a great textile mill center and all of the women go there to find employment.  They have a textile museum and ..  I digress.

There is a reason that they call Ivanovo the City of the Brides.   They are all waiting to get married and some are pretty direct.   If you ever make it to Ivanovo, I can guarantee you that you would be welcome in the local social centers and be targeted so many times that you would feel like Pam Anderson when she was still in Canada (she was 22).  That was before Borat.

I think that the reason that you have obsessed with this one relationship is that you finally found some success and thought that this success was what you were looking for.  It is NOT!   Go to Russia.  Find yourself there.  If not Russia, go to Ukraine.   I can tell you that for a sensitive but direct individual, there are 5/1 women to men and you will be tied up and hamstrung and in someone's arms before you learn how to say "Ochen Preyatna".

But play this one cool.  If you take a woman to bed on the first night you meet her, chances are it is going to be a wham bam thank-you mam type event.  No matter how many times you have talked to her on Skype. 

Oh, and for the discussion on PDA's there are always methods for RWs or FSUWs to show their affection without making it apparent to the public. 

Now give yourself some time to get over it and go get em.

[mendeleyev]

Mikey, if she was into you then she'd shut down that profile if it meant marching over and clubbing the agency manager with a sledgehammer. Time to move on. You are worth more than providing a nice vacation and photos from HK so that she can upload them to her profile.

Next time, find a lady who wants you in her home town and who wants her parents to approve. Forget her age, most RW want the family and friends to approve of their choice.

Go to her hometown and get to know it and her like the back of your hand. Meet her friends as you'll learn a lot about her by observing her friends. Watch her interact with her parents and how they interact with her child. The trip to HK was an expensive waste because I'll lay odds that you'd not have taken a girl from down the street in your home town on a honeymoon for the first date.

You seem like a nice guy and you can find a lady in the FSU who likes you for who you are, but you must be patient and prudent in your search. I wish you good luck!

[mikeyUSA]

People, what " showing affection in public" are we talking of? What exactly do you mean?

This means, to me, anyway... for example... if I were with her, and she was waiting for her change for paying for coffee... that I could reach out, and scratch her back while waiting for her change.   It is harmless.  But, it shows that "I am there, and that I am with here".    No, I am not trying to lick her ass all down the road, but, at least showing her affection by rubbing her arm when a subtle point is there.

[Patagonie]

Yep, she loves her child very much, and again, holding hands with her child was priority.  But, the trip immediately became about the child.  Only when the child was asleep did we get 'quality time'.   So, in the back of my mind, I think if I didn't invite the child, we would already be talking about how fast to get her marriage visa.  Oh well.  lesson learned.

Edit:  I mentioned our 'great conversations'.  you see, when two people like each other, they no problem at all stairing intently into each others eyes.  We did this all the time.  Each time we talked, we staired directly into each others eyes, focusing directly into them... before, during, and even after each word and sentence.  We have very very good eye contact.  I am no fool, but, this is why I think there were "feelings".  Even when we skyped for hours before our 'big trip', we would stare at each other and talk for hours. 

We did have some good quality time.  that much is for sure.  That's what bugs me so much.  It bugs me because the feelings weren't able to be ingrained deep enough and long enough.  Only when the child was asleep was the quality time there.     

And of course, she probably already was talking to 'another cute guy', that she really wanted to meet, before she finally made her decision.

Hello MikeyUSA, many, many good advices posted by OPs here.
Finally, reading your additionnals posts i revise my judgement : i had given you a 90% of responsability in this story but today i would say 60%.
She is not a girl for you.
She has NOT DECIDED TO SETTLE DOWN and not with you. If a woman or a man are not ready to go to a unique relation in their head they go nowhere.
The problem is to do it in the appropriate time. You obviously did it too early (as many men on first trip, and as many men who meet first beauty (men are impressed by beauty generally). She will probably decide to settle down when she will have met the appropriate candidate but for the moment she is only enjoying international dating.

If i resume what you should learn about this experience (no time lost, you are just learning, nothing wrong with this process, we have all learnt some lessons, pretty much costly) :
is :
        --> visit her in her city. Have a backup. Contact a trusty professional (interpreter) to support you and try to see which agencies are in the city and what about their reputation. Use transportation and rental flat from a specialized agency not from the girl.
        --> For the rest read others posts.

What worry me about you is your demeanor. You perfectly understand what we are writing but your behavior is the biggest problem. You are 40 but i don't think too much that you have learnt from your previous relationships, and it is not a question of numeral.

You don't have the right attitude and RW are especially sensitive to this type of behavior. RW seems to be tender, romantical, frank and easy going in relationship (and yes they are) but on an other hand they are very good to game you (better than AW) and you seem the perfect sheep among a herd of tigers. And this not a question of age you can be 45 and she can be 25 and she can game you as a CIA expert.
She did with you exactly what she want to do. Are you conscious of that ?
Of course you loose many points, but more serious, this had been  counter productive for you, she kept all her options open and get a travel for free. What does she win ? all. What do you win ? Nothing.
You thought to win her by pleasing her, but you allowed her to game game you and get advantage of you. A woman who gets advantage of man looses respect for him. And as the respect decreases attraction and interest decrease also... When she is no longer interested or attracted, she asks a second trip to an other man for example.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your demeanor is the biggest problem of your endeavor, not women, not Russia or Ukraine, not the child.
Just a proof which shows how much it is rooted in your head : FROM YOU "So, in the back of my mind, I think if I didn't invite the child, we would already be talking about how fast to get her marriage visa.  Oh well.  lesson learned. "
This is exactly the wrong demeanor i worry about : you want to get, WHEREAS  the good demeanor is TO TEST.
What is to test ? It is to take time to be sure  that she fits all importants criterias which are necessary for you to have a good life in couple. And don't be cheap with this strategy, if she fails you ditch her and choice an other. You need to REVERSE this demeanor and drop silly thinkings which are "adopt a man like me please, i beg you". This is a disaster with women, and especially with RW.
Have you take three weeks to think about you ? What are your mains qualities, defaults, what is important for you, what you need emotionnaly, which qualities are you waiting for a women ? Have you elaborated your standards ??? A guy who go darker like a razorback without not knowing himself and what he want and what he don't want is like a platoon without a map.

You are not alone : many men are leaded by theirs balls, they don't think strategically and they don't want to unplease to women. Many, many are like this.
I have questions for you : DO YOU WANT TO CHANGE YOUR DEMEANOR ? HOW ARE YOU GOING TO DO THIS ? 

[Faux Pas]

But the right board  .
Ok, we can be "politically correct" and feel bad for Mikey, but this is the reality- both men and women look for what they want by "having options". What is terrible in her going to SPB? Or Moscow?
In terms of the board?
Did she committed on this date? She barely said "maybe". She obviously didn't like something in Mikey and it is ok! It was just a try.

No Doll, this isn't at all about feeling sorry for mikey. I don't  He got some bang for his buck. Just pointing him in the right direction. Not about that at all but, he wasn't dating 3-4-5 women. There is no comparison for what you are implying. If the woman paid her way to Hong Kong and dating numerous men you might have something, but she didn't and you don't 

[Belvis]

This means, to me, anyway... for example... if I were with her, and she was waiting for her change for paying for coffee... that I could reach out, and scratch her back while waiting for her change.   It is harmless.  But, it shows that "I am there, and that I am with here".    No, I am not trying to lick her ass all down the road, but, at least showing her affection by rubbing her arm when a subtle point is there.

Seems to me there are certain cultural differences between AM and FSUW in signs of public affection. In this particular situation of first date I would expect only smiles from a woman. Smiles can be different and tell you a lot depending on what cause these smiles. If a woman takes my arm voluntarily at the first date while walking I would try to spend a night with her. No guarantee I will succeed in though.

Aside note. I see one fault of Mikey, he give the  initiative in relation in hands of her woman. She has to lay in his bed naked to seduce him. Of course, one should not to push, but one should create occasions for affection in playful manners, all the time together.
She may find him a nice bore that is much worse than being a joyful skirt chaser (not quite true ).

[Doll]

This means, to me, anyway... for example... if I were with her, and she was waiting for her change for paying for coffee... that I could reach out, and scratch her back while waiting for her change.   It is harmless.  But, it shows that "I am there, and that I am with here".    No, I am not trying to lick her ass all down the road, but, at least showing her affection by rubbing her arm when a subtle point is there.

Guys, don't do it to FSU women, they are not used to it, it is NOT in our culture. After almost 11 years of marriage I still don't like it from my husband in public. I told him 2,000,000 times to not!
It feels inappropriate and ANNOYNG.
It is just another culture, so respect it.

[Doll]

Patagonie , how exactly did this woman "take advantage" of Mikey?

[Doll]

No Doll, this isn't at all about feeling sorry for mikey. I don't  He got some bang for his buck. Just pointing him in the right direction. Not about that at all but, he wasn't dating 3-4-5 women. There is no comparison for what you are implying. If the woman paid her way to Hong Kong and dating numerous men you might have something, but she didn't and you don't 

OMG, dear! I forgot- it is all about money. The one who pays, "dances the girl".
She did it her way, and, by the way, so did I.
 

[Patagonie]

Patagonie , how exactly did this woman "take advantage" of Mikey?

Hello Doll
I said "You thought to win her by pleasing her, but you allowed her to game game you and 1/ get advantage of you. A woman who gets 2/ advantage of man looses respect for him. And as the respect decreases attraction and interest decrease also... When she is no longer interested or attracted, she asks a second trip to an other man for example. "

1/ I meaned she leads the game and oriented the dating at her own advantage. This allow her to A/ hide this relation from any family B/ Hide it from a local boyfriend C/ hide herself from others challengers.
In the Mikey's story it is what happened. I see nothing wrong with this, just men mustn't allow themselves to be gamed like this.

2/ If a women get advantage (of your feelings, your time, your money) typical case : the scammer, the one who enjoy to have nice vacations but in fact she has 2 others boyfriends and you want to marry her but she lies to you and never tell you to keep the advantage.
For me this not happened during the travel.
But if he paid a second ticket to let her see an other man (perhaps i have not well understood) so she took advantage of him.

[Hammer2722]

2/ 
But if he paid a second ticket to let her see an other man (perhaps i have not well understood) so she took advantage of him.

My understanding is that is exactly what Mikey thinks she did. She used the money he gave her for Moscow to go to ST. Pete to meet another man. To me, that is being totally dishonest. period!!!! I do blame Mikey for going into this situation with blinders on!!!

[Doll]

Patagonie, this woman was invited by Mikey to HG. He wanted to pay and he did it. She didn't twist his arm. Did she have to marry him because he paid? No. Did he want to go see her in her town and she said no? No.
Her only "sin" which is not proved is the airplane ticket which is how much? $100?
It is not a big loss. He probably offered the money to her himself.
Did she get a car, diamonds, tons of money? No.
I don't see how she took advantage.
 

[jone]

You're right Doll.  She gave good for what she got.

[Doll]

You're right Doll.  She gave good for what she got.

I've just read the OP over- it is Mikey's theory that she went to see the other man.
Also, did you read in the same post he was rude to her on the phone after she said "it was too early"? Only then she said, "Finished" as every woman would do.
99 from 100 RW will.

[jone]

It was academic when he wanted something she did not want to give.  If she doesn't feel it, she doesn't feel it.  It is over.  Most of us have probably been on both sides of this equation and it is time for him to let some time pass rather than over think the whole thing.  For all I know, she might be one mixed up woman.  But she did give him what he was wanting on the trip he paid for.

[Patagonie]

Patagonie, this woman was invited by Mikey to HG. He wanted to pay and he did it. She didn't twist his arm. Did she have to marry him because he paid? No. Did he want to go see her in her town and she said no? No.
Her only "sin" which is not proved is the airplane ticket which is how much? $100?
It is not a big loss. He probably offered the money to her himself.
Did she get a car, diamonds, tons of money? No.
I don't see how she took advantage.

Yeah i agree, just you last sentence, i am not sure (but we know only one version).

[mikeyUSA]

It was academic when he wanted something she did not want to give.  If she doesn't feel it, she doesn't feel it.  It is over.  Most of us have probably been on both sides of this equation and it is time for him to let some time pass rather than over think the whole thing.  For all I know, she might be one mixed up woman. But she did give him what he was wanting on the trip he paid for.

No. She didn't.  I did not want sex.  I wanted a women in my future.

[mikeyUSA]

Patagonie, this woman was invited by Mikey to HG. He wanted to pay and he did it. She didn't twist his arm. Did she have to marry him because he paid? No. Did he want to go see her in her town and she said no? No.
Her only "sin" which is not proved is the airplane ticket which is how much? $100?
It is not a big loss. He probably offered the money to her himself.
Did she get a car, diamonds, tons of money? No.
I don't see how she took advantage.

Actually, it was a lot lot more than that.  she is from Kamchatka. Also, I did not 'offer' it to her...   she, after 3 weeks from hong kong, she suddenly wants to skype.  We get online, and all she talks about is "this potential job opportunity".  This is ALL she talks about for 1.5 hours.  It was near the end, when she actually asks me for "Help" getting to Moscow.  As soon as I said I would... suddenly, she has to go offline...       So, if she did use this money to fly to SPB to meet a guy, then yes, it is being gamed.   ...and like everyone says, she probably has optional guys to look at, so most likely it is to meet a guy.