Pro-dater?

[Bee Farmer]

Since I am the only man here not to have been scammed or spent lengthy times with materialistic women.

Is that due to your ability to recognize materialistic women, or is it because of the class of women you pursue?

You recently made a post in which you talked about how unpleasant it was to have to listen to your gal talk about her feelings and thoughts.  So she puts her head in your lap, and after she's done talking, you basically alluded to her..and you...in essence as a way to pay you for listening to her.

And usually when a woman accepts being degraded like that, their self-esteem is so low that they don't think they are worthy of anything nicer than what they have.  They simply don't have the desire or ambition for better things like the scammers do.

[calmissile]

Speechless!!
Thank God he has not spawned yet.  There are only so many Darwin awards each year.  LOL

I still think it is a prank.

[Welder]

Men who take many trips to FSU are very quickly branded as sex tourists even where that is not the case and even where there is no sex.

Further more, I think the moniker 'sex tourist' is pretty ludicrous except in  the case where travel is  done to have sex with underage persons.

As has been pointed out by several posters, if men were only interested in  having sex with legal age women, then it could be accomplished much cheaper and in less time to just stay in your own country or city

With all do respect, I call BS.  Please tell your audience the area of the US where young beautiful women jump middle aged guys with 15 year age gaps for promises of marriage.    That happens every day, NOT! 

[calmissile]

With all do respect, I call BS.  Please tell your audience the area of the US where young beautiful women jump middle aged guys with 15 year age gaps for promises of marriage.    That happens every day, NOT! 

I think you are reading too much propoganda.  Sure there are FSU women that jump a guy for a weekend or a night either for a fling or for gifts (regardless of age).  The same is true in the US! I have yet to find one (FSU) that jumps a stranger for the promise of marriage.

How many trips have you made to the FSU?

[Chelseaboy]

lonedrake,
 
                   Yes i agree with you,it is the emotional side of being used by a pro-dater/scammer that is far more damaging than any financial "hit".
 
Having experienced being used by a very convincing pro-dater,i can say it really made me lose my faith in human nature,and question the morals of FSU women in general.
The level of deceit i experienced in actions and words was truly astonishing.
It was very interesting reading the latest posting of jone in the "Oh my gosh she's beautiful" thread,regarding Washington's thoughts on the MOB industry ,and the enticing of men to foreign countries..
 
Good luck on your trip to Ukraine,and keep your wits about you.

[lonedrake]

Chelseaboy,

 Thank you. Yes......so far i have called two women on their cell phones and even though one speaks almost zero english........they both sounded pretty giddy

Of course a good scammer will also sound like that.  If they are scammers they are not the ones in it for a quick easy buck.

[Faux Pas]

As I understand it, the term 'pro dater' is used here to describe someone who is a serial dater with the primary agenda to get meals, trips, gifts, and other things of  monetary value from the  men.

I have never heard of  a man having this goal or  maybe it  is one in a thousand or so.

You seem to be overlooking a very important aspect here ML. Maybe to protect your own ego, maybe not. Doesn't matter anyway. Take your average freshly divorced American male. He's 40-45, been married 15-20 years and finds himself on the dating scene. It's not what he remembered from 20 years earlier and the younger women 20-30 do not respond to him as they did when he was single so many years ago.

Many of these men find it very difficult to hook up with the younger women in America unless it is a hooker or sugar daddy scenario. Their ego and their lust demand some young flesh without either of those stigma's and some simply can't afford it but they do find that they can pick women out of a catalog for $50 bucks a date in the FSU. It has a lot of allure to many of these men.

Men who take many trips to FSU are very quickly branded as sex tourists even where that is not the case and even where there is no sex.

Further more, I think the moniker 'sex tourist' is pretty ludicrous except in  the case where travel is  done to have sex with underage persons.

Many of those men are sex tourist and the moniker fits. Any man that traveled to the FSU, had sex with a women he had no intention of marrying under the false pretense that he was interested in marrying her could easily be called a sex tourist.

Man and woman having sex is no crime and nothing at all is wrong with doing so. No matter their cultures or countries. Just enjoying each other's company, fine. Power to them. But leveraging "I'm looking for a partner/wife to be with me in the U.S." as an avenue to bed the women with no intention of marrying them, would make a sex tourist.

A sex tourist by definition would be anyone who traveled for sex with partners that they could not achieve at home. It's not just child molesters or perverts.

[ML]

You recently made a post in which you talked about how unpleasant it was to have to listen to your gal talk about her feelings and thoughts.  So she puts her head in your lap, and after she's done talking, you basically alluded to her..and you...in essence as a way to pay you for listening to her.

And usually when a woman accepts being degraded like that, their self-esteem is so low that they don't think they are worthy of anything nicer than what they have. 

You have bitched at several men  here about  their inability to read.

But the shame of not being able to read is far less a sin than that committed by those who deliberately mis-state and mis-characterize what has been written by others.

I wrote

- - - - - - - -

We have a daily routine when my  Gal comes home from classes.

I sit on sofa, put leg rest up, she lies down on her back with head on my lap.

Then she proceeds to give me a VERY detailed description of her entire day.
She gets very animated when telling about some concept she was able to understand in class, about her grades on homework, quiz, test, etc. Throws her hands around,  etc.

She enjoys this very much; and I allow her this enjoyment even as it can get a little tedious for me (but I never ever let this show.)

Then I . . . her . . . and she takes a short nap with a smile on her face.

First, it is clear to everyone that I wrote it 'can get a little tedious' to listen everyday to someone who tells in great detail about their daily school activities.  This is a far cry from your substituted word 'unpleasant.'

Second, I wrote she lays on her back with her head in my lap while she is recounting to day's events.  It is pretty difficult to give a guy a BJ in that position as you allude to.

Third, I wrote that after her talking 'I . . . her . . . and she takes a short nap with a smile on her face.'  Everyone else here knew that 'I massaged her pussy and she takes a short nap with a smile on her face.'

So yes, in your focked up mind this was 'in essence as a way to pay you (me) for listening to her.  And yes, most women typically feel degraded when their man helps them achieve orgasm(s).

Fourth, I fully realize that you and many (most) men here cannot even imagine that a man would be first and foremost interested in giving their woman sexual pleasures; because many (most) men think of themselves first and foremost.

I give my Gal sexual pleasures at least 3 times EVERY day, while I can achieve only 1 or 2 a week for myself.

- - - - - -

Bee Farmer, despite your claims and pretensions, you are far from a good and religious person.  You aren't even an honest person.

[ML]

Quote from: ML on Yesterday at 10:31:25 PM<blockquote>As I understand it, the term 'pro dater' is used here to describe someone who is a serial dater with the primary agenda to get meals, trips, gifts, and other things of monetary value from the  men.
</blockquote>

ML...then what is difference between scammer and serial dater? What you have described has been also labeled here as a scammer.
There must be some mind readers to be able to ascertain in a date or couple dates what a girls 'primary agenda' is. What if she just likes/wants lavish things.......and maybe the guy doesn't end up being what she is looking for. And I do understand, from a guys POV,  it seems she just used him.

Yes, I see the two are pretty close.

I think the dividing line might be between those who outright ask for actual money and those who take things of monetary value.

It is sort of like the fine line between the typical prostitute who has sex with the man and gets cash that she uses to buy food, pay rent, etc. . . . and the standard date where the woman has sex after the man pays for the food.  So is there a difference between women who receive food, and women who receive cash and then buy food?

Anyway, I am not knowledgeable at all about this scammer vs pro-dater situation since I have not experienced such.

And I don't know much about prostitutes as I haven't had any contact with such since my wild navy days as a young man traveling to exotic places around the world.

Interesting though, now that I think back, the oriental prostitutes had a nice procedure in that they rarely asked for money outright for sex.  It was more like: 'we' need some money so that I can buy 'us' some food, or so that 'we' can pay our rent which is now due, or so that 'we' can buy me a nice dress so that you will be proud to be seen with me . . . etc., etc.

[ML]

Quote from: ML on Yesterday at 10:31:25 PM
Men who take many trips to FSU are very quickly branded as sex tourists even where that is not the case and even where there is no sex.

Further more, I think the moniker 'sex tourist' is pretty ludicrous except in  the case where travel is  done to have sex with underage persons.

As has been pointed out by several posters, if men were only interested in  having sex with legal age women, then it could be accomplished much cheaper and in less time to just stay in your own country or city

With all do respect, I call BS.  Please tell your audience the area of the US where young beautiful women jump middle aged guys with 15 year age gaps for promises of marriage.    That happens every day, NOT! 

Well, you added words that I never used in my statements.

I said: ' if men were only interested in  having sex with legal age women,'

You changed my 1 word 'women' to 16 words 'young beautiful women jump middle aged guys with 15 year age gaps for promises of marriage.'

If my opinions are labeled BS; then how shall we label the man who deliberately changes the words of  others?

Seems to be an epidemic of  this going around.

[jone]

Quote from: ML on Yesterday at 10:31:25 PM<blockquote>As I understand it, the term 'pro dater' is used here to describe someone who is a serial dater with the primary agenda to get meals, trips, gifts, and other things of monetary value from the  men.
</blockquote>
Yes, I see the two are pretty close.

I think the dividing line might be between those who outright ask for actual money and those who take things of monetary value.

It is sort of like the fine line between the typical prostitute who has sex with the man and gets cash that she uses to buy food, pay rent, etc. . . . and the standard date where the woman has sex after the man pays for the food.  So is there a difference between women who receive food and women who receive cash and then buy food?

Anyway, I am not knowledgeable at all about this scammer vs pro-dater situation since I ha ve not experienced such.

And I don't know much about prostitutes as I haven't had any contact with such since my wild navy days as a young man traveling to exotic places around the world.

Interesting though, now that I think back, the oriental prostitutes had a nice procedure in that they rarely asked for money outright for sex.  It was more like: 'we' need some money so that I can buy 'us' some food, or so that 'we' can pay our rent which is now due, or so that 'we' can buy me a nice dress so that you will be proud to be seen with me . . . etc., etc.

And there are many women who walk both sides of the street.  They may begin the date as a pro-dater with the open eye for a guy that they would like to wind up with.  And that further confuses the concept. 

I believe that men think on a much more simple level than the complex thoughts that enter a woman's mind.   Most women I know have divergent thoughts on many different things almost simultaneously.  Most men I know think of only one thing........ how well their football team is going to do this weekend.

[ECOCKS]

Hmmmm.

I see differences in them.

IMO:

Scammers - work full-time, usually for a company, but sometimes for an organization, and occasionally, in entrepreneurial mode, for themselves, in the job of enticing WM to spend money on communications, gifts and fictional expenses incurred in the process of building a supposed relationship. Their monetary gain is through some sort of minimal salary PLUS set payments of fees, commissions and % splits on large scores. Geographically there is usually separation to limit the ability of the victim to check up on the validity of the payments and their use for the stated purpose.

Pro-daters - are much more entrepreneurial, usually casual, and less into single money payments (although some may dabble with perpetuating scams as described above) but seeking a series of payments from multiple sources. Many are students (or pretending to be) and consider this a part-time job but get drawn into the scamming side when they see/hear about the gullible men who will send $500 a month and think all they have to do is find four of them. They are often happy to have paid travel, gifts of clothing, jewelry, computers, etc. (which they actually receive and either use or sell) as well as be entertained with meals and other activities when the guy is in town. However, they have no particular intention or goal of marrying someone who will expect them to leave their home area.

Serial daters - just want to have a "good time" enjoying meals, picking up a few mementos and enjoying some diverse physical stimulation. They usually have a real job that pays the bills and consider dating a way to spice up an otherwise mundane lifestyle. If they meet "the one", all well and good, but then again, they are also willing to date any reasonably acceptable guy as long as there is "something" in it for them – reasonable sex, good food, a trip to Turkey, whatever.

One thing all of these have in common from the perspective of the FSU relationship-seeker is that they advertise. While there are some gals in our home countries/areas who fit the above-descriptions, most of the serial daters are only on Match and other innocuous sites OR they’re propping up the bar or sitting at a table in the local dive for guys looking for “a sure thing”.

[Miri22]

Is there some reason we need such graphic sexual detail from ML? 

[ML]

Is there some reason we need such graphic sexual detail from ML? 

Why didn't you complain about the complete and deliberate mis-representation about the more gentle terms I had used in my original post that necessitated my clarification.

And besides minor children and homosexuals should not be reading on this site anyway.

[calmissile]

Hmmmm.

I see differences in them.

IMO:

Scammers - work full-time, usually for a company, but sometimes for an organization, and occasionally, in entrepreneurial mode, for themselves, in the job of enticing WM to spend money on communications, gifts and fictional expenses incurred in the process of building a supposed relationship. Their monetary gain is through some sort of minimal salary PLUS set payments of fees, commissions and % splits on large scores. Geographically there is usually separation to limit the ability of the victim to check up on the validity of the payments and their use for the stated purpose.

Pro-daters - are much more entrepreneurial, usually casual, and less into single money payments (although some may dabble with perpetuating scams as described above) but seeking a series of payments from multiple sources. Many are students (or pretending to be) and consider this a part-time job but get drawn into the scamming side when they see/hear about the gullible men who will send $500 a month and think all they have to do is find four of them. They are often happy to have paid travel, gifts of clothing, jewelry, computers, etc. (which they actually receive and either use or sell) as well as be entertained with meals and other activities when the guy is in town. However, they have no particular intention or goal of marrying someone who will expect them to leave their home area.

Serial daters - just want to have a "good time" enjoying meals, picking up a few mementos and enjoying some diverse physical stimulation. They usually have a real job that pays the bills and consider dating a way to spice up an otherwise mundane lifestyle. If they meet "the one", all well and good, but then again, they are also willing to date any reasonably acceptable guy as long as there is "something" in it for them – reasonable sex, good food, a trip to Turkey, whatever.

One thing all of these have in common from the perspective of the FSU relationship-seeker is that they advertise. While there are some gals in our home countries/areas who fit the above-descriptions, most of the serial daters are only on Match and other innocuous sites OR they’re propping up the bar or sitting at a table in the local dive for guys looking for “a sure thing”.

+1
Your description also fits my understanding of the different types of FSUW daters.

[Misha]

...in essence as a way to pay you for listening to her.

What is it with this obsessions about paying for sex and prostitutes    You seem to see it EVERYWHERE!

And usually when a woman accepts being degraded like that...

I am curious, what do you see exactly as degrading? In reading your posts, it seems that the very act of a woman having sex is perceived as degrading by you and portrayed as shameful. I hate to break this to you, but sex is pretty natural, and women can actually enjoy sex...

[Bee Farmer]

First, it is clear to everyone that I wrote it 'can get a little tedious' to listen everyday to someone who tells in great detail about their daily school activities.  This is a far cry from your substituted word 'unpleasant.'

And I understood your "little tedious" comment to be quite sarcastic, especially when you followed it up by saying that you do not let her see it.

If it was only a "little tedious", you wouldn't have mentioned it at all.  It's a little tedious to have to take the garbage out, or putting dirty clothes in the hamper instead of leaving them on the floor.  But normal guys aren't trying to engage in sexual play as their payment for doing the tedious things.

ML, I don't think you see that normal guys do things in a relationship (even if it is a little tedious) without having to have sex play being involved.  While sex is an important part of a committed relationship, it's not the only part.

You give the impression that you can only see women as being sex objects.  (And it doesn't matter who is getting off - I've heard sex described as undivided attention with at least one person getting off.)  You give the impression that all you can think about is sex play with a woman.  There really is more to women than just sex.  It really is possible to spend enjoyable time with a lady, even when it doesn't involve sex play.

And there are many women who walk both sides of the street.  They may begin the date as a pro-dater with the open eye for a guy that they would like to wind up with.  And that further confuses the concept.

Or do they begin the date hoping the guy is someone they would want to end up with...but when he's more of a frog than a prince, they just take advantage of the situation?

It may be similar to locks on doors.  A locked door only stops an honest thief.  It just stops the opportunists.  A determined thief will find a way in.
On the other hand, an unlocked door on a run down house seldom attracts attention.  Thieves are more likely to break into nice houses before they will break into a dilapidated shack - and scammers are more likely to target Mr Moneybags before they will target an unassuming guy who isn't leading the way with his wallet.

Most women I know have divergent thoughts on many different things almost simultaneously.  Most men I know think of only one thing........ how well their football team is going to do this weekend.

Yes, women have more neural connectors between the halves of their brain.  They are able to multi-task much easier than guys.  Guys can concentrate on one thing and block out everything else much easier than women can.  Both have their advantages and disadvantages.  There's been scientific studies on this.

Scammers - work full-time, usually for a company, but sometimes for an organization, and occasionally, in entrepreneurial mode, for themselves, in the job of enticing WM to spend money on communications, gifts and fictional expenses incurred in the process of building a supposed relationship.

Pro-daters - are much more entrepreneurial, usually casual, and less into single money payments (although some may dabble with perpetuating scams as described above) but seeking a series of payments from multiple sources.

We taught capitalism well to the communists.  We became socialist, and they are becoming capitalist.

Shouldn't we just be happy that they have an entrepreneurial spirit?

What is it with this obsessions about paying for sex and prostitutes    You seem to see it EVERYWHERE!

Maybe because it is everywhere?  I know - next I'll be accused of being like a wife that nags constantly about the stuff that never gets done.

I am curious, what do you see exactly as degrading? In reading your posts, it seems that the very act of a woman having sex is perceived as degrading by you and portrayed as shameful.

There is a time and a place for everything.  Yes, sex can be wonderful.  But I also know that women have more value than just sex.  I do not perceive sex as degrading or portray it as shameful - what is degrading and shameful is when low class guys fail to see women as anything more than sex objects.

I hate to break this to you, but sex is pretty natural, and women can actually enjoy sex...

Everything in moderation.  Would you think it was a problem if a girl enjoyed sex so much that she shared it with many guys?

[vaiano777]

You have been had big time.

I presume you are not mentally retarded . . . so why are you even THINKING about continuing ANYTHING with this woman??

Did you really need to be so harsh? Does that make you feel better to attack a child? That is what this guy from Finland is, he is a child in this realm, and YOU ARE THE EXPERT! Why would you attack him like that when he needs someone to hold his hand a little bit and help him see that his eyes have been closed. That is all he needs.

[ukthesis]

There is a website dedicated to exposing scammers.  It's called something like scammers.com.  So you can report her there.  Not sure if reporting her to the cops locally will do much good, since the places are so far away and my impression is that there is a high level of official indifference.

I agree with the rest, that this has the hallmarks of a scam, and best to walk away.  I know that it's easier said than done, since you put a lot of investment into this woman.  But better now than later, when the impact will be felt even more.

Have you tried other dating sites, perhaps non-Ukrainian ones?  I don't know many of the guys once on these forums decided there was simply too many problems involved in getting involved with the Ukrainians and walked away, but you might find alternatives.

[Muzh]

Did you know they have a website exposing male scammers?

Many are from Europe. And their crimes? Trying to live off their woman.

You know what they say; what is good for the goose...