Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...

[Paulie]

I came here 11 years ago with my younger son (he was 8 yo, now he is 19). Did I understand how insecure I was? Not right away, but soon I did realize. I totally depended on my husband. Yes, our marriage got through some "bumps", the bumps are still there)).

In case of divorce I was to live on my own, which is VERY hard in a foreign country (but possible). I have almost no access to my husband's assets - he was and still is very precautious what (when it) comes to his money (if it is the right word).

To be fair, in this situation he let me have my own account and didn't demand to contribute a lot in the "household".  I had to live with my "eyes open"))).

At some point we shared our saving account, also, I started saving for the child. By now the boy (my son) is in USAF making decent money.

Am I still insecure? Yes, but not that bad.

Doll, did you come here on your own, before you met your husband?  As I read your post, it sent shivers down my spine.  I guess I am traditional and old fashioned in that I DO believe it is my obligation to support my beloved.  I have no problem with that. 

Before I make any comments about your situation, my own issue is that my situation has been created by Ms. Istanbul setting ‘preconditions’ to stepping foot into this relationship any further and into the US.  She has a ‘fairy tale’ idea about a white knight with a bank account rescuing her. 

As for your comments, if I bring my mate to this country I DO have an expectation of 1) taking on responsibility for her financial security in a reasonable way, 2) when (and if) we marry, anything we create together is community property.  My assets prior to marriage are, well…my assets.  Any assets we build together is ours together. 

Lastly, I would not want my beloved to feel any insecurity, and I would be reasonable in making sure she feels secure.   

[ML]

Paulie:

1) Do not provide money to any woman or her family before a marriage; except for the money needed for wedding preparation and her transportation to be with you.

2) For a foreign woman; after marriage you will fully support her (but not her adult family) until she is able to add to the household support.

3) You should prepare a prenup that provides for support for her if the marriage terminates.  This support should be of the amount that gets her through the time period necessary to be able to fully support herself.  Check with Gator as he has experience with this.  This prenup  with specified support takes the place of such things as buying assets for the other party in their name only.

4) For any spouse that does not have a good paying job or adequate financial assets, the other spouse (or partner) should obtain a life insurance policy that will provide adequately for the surviving spouse.  Or, alternatively, the same can be accomplished by will or legal documents that give the surviving spouse a certain amount or percentage of the IRA and/or other retirement funds and/or real estate and other holdings.

Think about all of these things logically when you go about searching for a new gal.

Hardly anyone (except in the movies) deliberately chooses a mate who  they know to have a terminal disease.

The same should apply when you learn that the woman (man) has terminal financial problems.

[Paulie]

Paulie:

1) Do not provide money to any woman or her family before a marriage; except for the money needed for wedding preparation and her transportation to be with you.

2) For a foreign woman; after marriage you will fully support her (but not her adult family) until she is able to add to the household support.

3) You should prepare a prenup that provides for support for her if the marriage terminates.  This support should be of the amount that gets her through the time period necessary to be able to fully support herself.  Check with Gator as he has experience with this.  This prenup with specified support takes the place of such things as buying assets for the other party in their name only.

4) For any spouse that does not have a good paying job or adequate financial assets, the other spouse (or partner) should obtain a life insurance policy that will provide adequately for the surviving spouse.  Or, alternatively, the same can be accomplished by will or legal documents that give the surviving spouse a certain amount or percentage of the IRA and/or other retirement funds and/or real estate and other holdings.

Think about all of these things logically when you go about searching for a new gal.

Hardly anyone (except in the movies) deliberately chooses a mate who  they know to have a terminal disease.

The same should apply when you learn that the woman (man) has terminal financial problems.

ML,

Thank you for your advice, well put and well taken.  As for #1 – I get this and honestly I made a mistake and went over the line with Ms. Istanbul having given her money for her personal needs and paying for her daughter’s trip to NYC and Los Angeles.  #2) I DO expect to support and want to support my beloved, but will not support her family.  I am not the “Bank of Paulie.”  I did think that Ms. Istanbul would have had the intelligence to understand that it is appropriate for her to help with household support at some point.  We did talk about this and she did waiver back and forth, sometimes thinking that she ‘deserved to be taken care of.’  #3) I will check with Gator regarding a pre-nup.  In fact he contacted me and I plan to visit him when I am in his area next week. #4) I am on the same page as you and know this is the right thing to do. 

As for terminal financial issues, some people create this all on their own.  Ms. Istanbul made a decision to support he daughter’s college education (admirable if one can afford it) and feels responsible (and guilty) in wanting to support her mom.  These are her problems, not mine. 

Now that my Istanbul relationship is over, I am taking the time to reflect on my next steps.  I have been in touch with Eduard and we are talking about how he might be of help to me.  I appreciate your thoughtful input and your words of wisdom.

Best wishes,

Paul

[Doll]

I did not come on my own- J. paid for everything.

[Doll]

Don't  take me wrong, Paulie, J. did send me money MONTHLY before we got married, he has been providing us (my son and I) since day one- he still is. I do not have any problems with food or clothing- no!
Every time I have to go to Russia he pays for everything!
No questions asked.
As for the major assets- he keeps it separately just the way you're going to do.
FYI- I have two adult steps (son and daughter)

[vwrw]

As for #1 – I get this and honestly I made a mistake and went over the line with Ms. Istanbul having given her money for her personal needs and paying for her daughter’s trip to NYC and Los Angeles.


 #2) I DO expect to support and want to support my beloved, but will not support her family.  I am not the “Bank of Paulie.”  I did think that Ms. Istanbul would have had the intelligence to understand that it is appropriate for her to help with household support at some point.  We did talk about this and she did waiver back and forth, sometimes thinking that she ‘deserved to be taken care of.’

There are no general rules that would fit all situations. RW have different personalities, levels of English proficiency and sense of security that require different approaches.   


1. Premarital support.  I would not provide money to a woman before marriage with one exception.  If her English is limited and she agrees to quit her job to study English full time, then I would provide for her necessities so she could do that.


2. The family support. If you refuse to help her immediate family starting from the first day of your marriage, you can turn off many good women who helps their parents or children. For example, I lived with my mother before I married my husband. I was contributing  to our common budget with her. Regardless of how much I was charmed by my then fiancee, I would not leave her to survive on her own so I could find my happiness here NOR would I be happy here knowing she was going through tough time there.

Any man who would dare to suggest me that I should forget about helping her until I work myself in his country would be told to take a hike.

[BillyB]

In the case of an RW, it is possible that I would be ordered by the court to pay temporary alimony while she searches for a job or considers a move back to her country. 

Yes, of course. That's normal. If you're going to do a prenup, alimony issues should be in there. If it goes to court, a judge will find a divorced immigrant woman with English as her second language not very employable. You may have to pay more alimony with an immigrant woman than if you married an American woman.


Don't waste too much of your nerves worrying about divorce right now. You are a newly single man and you're a year or more away from getting into any marriage. For now enjoy the process of searching for a lady and courting her.

[Patagonie]

There are no general rules that would fit all situations. RW have different personalities, levels of English proficiency and sense of security that require different approaches.   


1. Premarital support.  I would not provide money to a woman before marriage with one exception.  If her English is limited and she agrees to quit her job to study English full time, then I would provide for her necessities so she could do that.


2. The family support. If you refuse to help her immediate family starting from the first day of your marriage, you can turn off many good women who helps their parents or children. For example, I lived with my mother before I married my husband. I was contributing  to our common budget with her. Regardless of how much I was charmed by my then fiancee, I would not leave her to survive on her own so I could find my happiness here NOR would I be happy here knowing she was going through tough time there.

Any man who would dare to suggest me that I should forget about helping her until I work myself in his country would be told to take a hike.

Good point.
Premarital support : give her the money she needs anytime she is loosing some money BECAUSE she dates you. For example if she is not in vacation and had took days off you should give money  to compensate.
If she stops to work like vwrw, you should help her.

And you need to not forget her parents.

[Patagonie]

Personally i think that Paulie is asking himself the right questions now. THis is very wise.
Some people want to tell him : forget this, enjoy your life, you will have time later.
I don't agree, i think he is doing the right thing at the right time : so he will have a clear picture of what
he needs to do when the right one will come. He will not have to fight against any anxiety. Better he will
be able to say the right things with the right knowledge and the right thinking, because he will have done all the deliberation prior.

This is something i did only very late in the FSU journey and IMHO i consider that Paulie here is doing a good job  .

[Doll]

 
1. Premarital support.  I would not provide money to a woman before marriage with one exception.  If her English is limited and she agrees to quit her job to study English full time, then I would provide for her necessities so she could do that.


 

I still don't see anything wrong with "premarital support".
Why not?

[Doll]

Good point.
 .

How is it "good"?  To not support your wife-to-be and support her mom?
I do understand the reasons of supporting "mom", but don't see why the man can't do it for his future wife?
I wrote it two hundred times: J. (my present husband), when we met the first time, asked "money" questions about how much I was making and how much it was to have a relatively decent living with 2 kids. He asked, I answered. I didn't ask for anything at all- never! He made his decision himself- actually provided my sons and me till we were here (and after))).
Why is it a no-no to send money to the woman whom you're going to marry (and then provide for her AND her mom)?
Again- in this regard my husband is a saint)))))
(Forgot to say- I spoke fluent English back then, so no "full time ELL"))))

[pitbull]

For a minute, let's forget Ms. Istanbul and focus on someone else.  What security is appropriate, if any, should I move an RW to the US?  What kind of protection is the 'right thing to do?"  If I married an American woman, and should we divorce, she would have skills where she could obtain a job.  An RW does not have the ability to find work given language barriers, legal considerations, etc.  Isn't this correct? 

In the case of an RW, it is possible that I would be ordered by the court to pay temporary alimony while she searches for a job or considers a move back to her country. 

OK, so a pre-nuptial is key here.  Question is:  What amount is appropriate in a divorce settlement?  What would the courts do as they look at a RW who has nowhere to go?  I am just curious if anyone addressed this issue or dealt with this in a divorce?  (Not that I would want a divorce – been there, done that.  But one never knows.)

Good news: In case of a short marriage, lets say up to 2 years, it is highly unlikely that you will pay ANY kind of alimony to your ex-RW wife. Courts will not care what she is going to eat and whether she has somewhere to go. So, unless you are willing to support her until she finds a job/returns home - she would be "left in the street", exactly what your Ms. Istanbul fears. You can check your state laws as in what the length of marriage should be for the courts to grant alimony. It will probably be at least 5 years or more. The laws are the same for domestic and international marriages alike. Ask me how I know - read too many sad "divorce stories" on the RW forum. All this talk about cobra RWs who marry poor AMs and then divorce and rob them in court is an exaggeration. In 99% of the cases it is the woman who leaves the marriage with bare ass 
Now, if you'd like to guarantee that you will help her out in case your short marriage desintegrates - write this out in a prenup. How much - it is between you and your conscience   

[ML]

In 99% of the cases it is the woman who leaves the marriage with bare ass 

Nothing is allowed for her to wear as she exits the courthouse??

What is done with her clothes??  Perhaps given to women getting married in another area of the courthouse??

[Patagonie]

How is it "good"?  To not support your wife-to-be and support her mom?
I do understand the reasons of supporting "mom", but don't see why the man can't do it for his future wife?
I wrote it two hundred times: J. (my present husband), when we met the first time, asked "money" questions about how much I was making and how much it was to have a relatively decent living with 2 kids. He asked, I answered. I didn't ask for anything at all- never! He made his decision himself- actually provided my sons and me till we were here (and after))).
Why is it a no-no to send money to the woman whom you're going to marry (and then provide for her AND her mom)?
Again- in this regard my husband is a saint)))))
(Forgot to say- I spoke fluent English back then, so no "full time ELL"))))

First the woman you meet was having a life by her own before you meet her. She was not starving.
And those who were starving, or wrote in their profiles, "generous" guys wanted, i avoided.
If a girl is having a very poor salary i would like to help her but not permanently while she lives in FSU. But surely not from day one.
And i would advice any newbie to absolutely avoid to start a permanent montly alimony from day one, because it can twist the relationship not in favor of love.
As soon as you the lady is no longer capable to win her money it is time to help her montly, and mum too if necessary.

About what you said the first two or five years, there is a concern about this time in case of divorce, not in favor of the woman.
I agree that something should be write in a prenup.

I would like to know, do you have in America, USA (Doll do you live in USA ?) a compensatory alimony ?

 

[pitbull]

I would like to know, do you have in America, USA (Doll do you live in USA ?) a compensatory alimony ?

What is compensatory alimony and how is it different from regular alimony? Are there both kinds in France and when are they granted?

[pitbull]

Good news: In case of a short marriage, lets say up to 2 years, it is highly unlikely that you will pay ANY kind of alimony to your ex-RW wife. Courts will not care what she is going to eat and whether she has somewhere to go. So, unless you are willing to support her until she finds a job/returns home - she would be "left in the street", exactly what your Ms. Istanbul fears. You can check your state laws as in what the length of marriage should be for the courts to grant alimony. It will probably be at least 5 years or more. The laws are the same for domestic and international marriages alike. Ask me how I know - read too many sad "divorce stories" on the RW forum. All this talk about cobra RWs who marry poor AMs and then divorce and rob them in court is an exaggeration. In 99% of the cases it is the woman who leaves the marriage with bare ass 
Now, if you'd like to guarantee that you will help her out in case your short marriage desintegrates - write this out in a prenup. How much - it is between you and your conscience 

Addendum: Here is a quote from Wiki: looks like a marriage has to be 10 years or longer to talk about alimony in most cases:
"The determination of alimony varies greatly from country to country and from state to state within the U.S.^[4] Some state statutes, including those of Texas, Montana, Kansas, Utah, Kentucky and Maine, give explicit guidelines to judges on the amount and/or duration of alimony. In Texas, Mississippi and Tennessee, for example, alimony is awarded only in cases of marriage or civil union of ten years or longer and the payments are limited to three years unless there are special, extenuating circumstances. Furthermore, the amount of spousal support is limited to the lesser of $2,500 per month or 40% of the payee's gross income.^[20][21][22] In Delaware, spousal support is usually not awarded in marriages of less than 10 years.^[20] In Kansas, alimony awards cannot exceed 121 months.^[20] In Utah, the duration of alimony cannot exceed the length of the marriage.^[20] In Maine, Mississippi, and Tennessee alimony is awarded in marriages or civil union of 10 to 20 years and the duration is half the length of the marriage barring extenuating circumstances.^[20] Other states, including California, Nevada and New York, have relatively vague statutes which simply list the "factors" a judge should consider when determining alimony (see list of factors below).^{[20][23][24][25]} In these states, the determination of duration and amount of alimony is left to the discretion of the family court judges who must consider case law in each state. In Mississippi, Texas and Tennessee, for example, there are 135 Appellate Cases in addition to 47 sections of State Statute that shape divorce law. As a result of these Appellate Cases, for example, Mississippi judges cannot order an end date to any alimony award. In 2012,Massachusetts signed into law comprehensive Alimony Reform.^[26] This law sets limits on alimony and eliminates lifetime alimony.
In general, there are four types of alimony.^[27]
Temporary Alimony: Support ordered when the parties are separated prior to divorce. Also called alimony pendente lite, which is Latin, meaning, "pending the suit".
Rehabilitative Alimony: Support given to a lesser-earning spouse for a period of time necessary to acquire work outside the home and become self-sufficient.
Permanent Alimony: Support paid to the lesser-earning spouse until the death of the payor, the death of the recipient, or the remarriage of the recipient.
Reimbursement Alimony: Support given as a reimbursement for expenses incurred by a spouse during the marriage (like educational expenses)."
 
 
 

[BillyB]

Good news: In case of a short marriage, lets say up to 2 years, it is highly unlikely that you will pay ANY kind of alimony to your ex-RW wife. Courts will not care what she is going to eat and whether she has somewhere to go.

Not true and the Wikipedia info you provided is pertaining to normal marriages. Judges have lots of discretion and if a RW is not employable, he will award alimony instead of throwing her  and her kids on the street. Not good if the judge has future ambitions of becoming a politician. If in any case a woman is thrown on the street, most likely welfare and food stamps on taxpayers dollars have to take care of her. Why when the guy who sponsored the woman signed an affidavit of support?

[pitbull]

Not true and the Wikipedia info you provided is pertaining to normal marriages. Judges have lots of discretion and if a RW is not employable, he will award alimony instead of throwing her  and her kids on the street. Not good if the judge has future ambitions of becoming a politician. If in any case a woman is thrown on the street, most likely welfare and food stamps on taxpayers dollars have to take care of her. Why when the guy who sponsored the woman signed an affidavit of support?

If the kids are involved the story might be a bit different but not necessarily. However, if not and a marriage is short - no alimony, "normal" marriages or not. 
Affidavits are rarely used and enforced. They "might" be, however if there is substantial welfare support for the woman withing the 10 (?) year of marriage, however the man will need to compensate the governmetn. For this, the US government will need to go for the man.
I don't know for sure how the system works, but there is probably not so much welfare support for a non-citizen, and in the cases we are talking about - these women will likely not be citizens.
Here is the general rule of thumb the first quote from Google. In  my years of reading the divorce stories on RW forums - I don't remember alimony granted for a short-term marriage.
 
Length of Marriage:
If a marriage is relatively short and there are no children, the courts often refuse to award alimony. If there are children under school age, however, the courts often award alimony to the spouse who is given physical custody.  Most courts feel that a child under school age is better served by having a full time parent at home.

[Doll]

Nothing is allowed for her to wear as she exits the courthouse??

What is done with her clothes??  Perhaps given to women getting married in another area of the courthouse??

It's a Russian "figure of language" which means "nothing"

[Doll]

   I would like to know, do you have in America, USA (Doll do you live in USA ?) a compensatory alimony ?

I live in the USA. As for alimony, it is all "might"- very theoretically.

[Patagonie]

Addendum: Here is a quote from Wiki: looks like a marriage has to be 10 years or longer to talk about alimony in most cases:
"The determination of alimony varies greatly from country to country and from state to state within the U.S.^[4] Some state statutes, including those of Texas, Montana, Kansas, Utah, Kentucky and Maine, give explicit guidelines to judges on the amount and/or duration of alimony. In Texas, Mississippi and Tennessee, for example, alimony is awarded only in cases of marriage or civil union of ten years or longer and the payments are limited to three years unless there are special, extenuating circumstances. Furthermore, the amount of spousal support is limited to the lesser of $2,500 per month or 40% of the payee's gross income.^[20][21][22] In Delaware, spousal support is usually not awarded in marriages of less than 10 years.^[20] In Kansas, alimony awards cannot exceed 121 months.^[20] In Utah, the duration of alimony cannot exceed the length of the marriage.^[20] In Maine, Mississippi, and Tennessee alimony is awarded in marriages or civil union of 10 to 20 years and the duration is half the length of the marriage barring extenuating circumstances.^[20] Other states, including California, Nevada and New York, have relatively vague statutes which simply list the "factors" a judge should consider when determining alimony (see list of factors below).^{[20][23][24][25]} In these states, the determination of duration and amount of alimony is left to the discretion of the family court judges who must consider case law in each state. In Mississippi, Texas and Tennessee, for example, there are 135 Appellate Cases in addition to 47 sections of State Statute that shape divorce law. As a result of these Appellate Cases, for example, Mississippi judges cannot order an end date to any alimony award. In 2012,Massachusetts signed into law comprehensive Alimony Reform.^[26] This law sets limits on alimony and eliminates lifetime alimony.
In general, there are four types of alimony.^[27]
Temporary Alimony: Support ordered when the parties are separated prior to divorce. Also called alimony pendente lite, which is Latin, meaning, "pending the suit".
Rehabilitative Alimony: Support given to a lesser-earning spouse for a period of time necessary to acquire work outside the home and become self-sufficient.
Permanent Alimony: Support paid to the lesser-earning spouse until the death of the payor, the death of the recipient, or the remarriage of the recipient.
Reimbursement Alimony: Support given as a reimbursement for expenses incurred by a spouse during the marriage (like educational expenses)."

Thank you Pitbull, i would try to give you some details here of how does it work :
Temporary Alimony: Support ordered when the parties are separated prior to divorce. Also called alimony pendente lite, which is Latin, meaning, "pending the suit".
We have the same here. Typically if the lady is not working, till the divorce she will have such alimony.

We call it more maintenance allowance --> after the divorce generally men pay such maintenance allowance for children.  But in rare cases, a woman can benefit also after the divorce of such mainenance allowance (till her remarriage). Some children can have to pay for their parents also

Compensatory alimony : paid generally by men (15 % of divorced pay a compensatory alimony and 97% ot time they are men) to compensate the drop of the woman living standards after a divorce. Since 2005 it is paid in one time in a fee (there are some exception but this is the rule).

[Faux Pas]

If the kids are involved the story might be a bit different but not necessarily. However, if not and a marriage is short - no alimony, "normal" marriages or not. 
Affidavits are rarely used and enforced. They "might" be, however if there is substantial welfare support for the woman withing the 10 (?) year of marriage, however the man will need to compensate the governmetn. For this, the US government will need to go for the man.
I don't know for sure how the system works, but there is probably not so much welfare support for a non-citizen, and in the cases we are talking about - these women will likely not be citizens.
Here is the general rule of thumb the first quote from Google. In  my years of reading the divorce stories on RW forums - I don't remember alimony granted for a short-term marriage.
 
Length of Marriage:
If a marriage is relatively short and there are no children, the courts often refuse to award alimony. If there are children under school age, however, the courts often award alimony to the spouse who is given physical custody.  Most courts feel that a child under school age is better served by having a full time parent at home.

Pit, that's not really true. Ironically enough, I know a RW who is going through a divorce from an AM right now. I have been very surprised by the amount of State support she has received. Make no mistake, she does need it. She left an abusive husband and took her two kids. One of the kids were his and hers the other was hers. She has received housing, legal help, food stamps and other stipends. The hubby is as useful as tits on a bull, a real piece of work. It's still difficult for her but, she is getting help. Of course that is just one case and probably isn't like this in other states.

[Doll]

FP, help from the government and alimony from husband are not the same things.
 

[Faux Pas]

FP, help from the government and alimony from husband are not the same things.

I am fully aware of that Doll  I never said they were nor did I compare them. But, there is "help" and women don't necessarily leave or tossed in the street "bare-assed" either.

[pitbull]

Pit, that's not really true. Ironically enough, I know a RW who is going through a divorce from an AM right now. I have been very surprised by the amount of State support she has received. Make no mistake, she does need it. She left an abusive husband and took her two kids. One of the kids were his and hers the other was hers. She has received housing, legal help, food stamps and other stipends. The hubby is as useful as tits on a bull, a real piece of work. It's still difficult for her but, she is getting help. Of course that is just one case and probably isn't like this in other states.

Well, that's a totally different story - if it's an abuse story with kids involved, the amount of support is different than in case of a short marriage, without abuse or kids involved. States usually take care of the kids much better than able adults
Paulie doesn't strike me as a man looking to have more kids. Paulie fears that he will be ordered to pay alimony in case his marriage to an RW falls apart relatively soon. My point is, he shouldn't worry, it is very unlikely that he will have to pay anything. In this case, the risk is almost 100% on the RW
 
In fact, I would love to hear about a case where a non-disabled RW with no children gets alimony upon divorce after a short (up to 2 years), or any welfare support. The biggest issue in thos cases is for women to somehow get a permanent GC