Curious about mistakes I made

[Pkeel]

OK, I hope we can keep this light hearted, I am 24 days from my first trip.  The following is the route I have followed on this my first foray into the FSU and FSUW hunt.  Since this really is just the start, I thought it might be fun for everyone to pick apart what I did now.  Everyone wants to be a Monday morning quarterback and explain all the mistakes afterwards.  Now is the chance to predict it forward. 

I dated a Russian from Magnitogorsk here in the USA.  She came 15 years ago and was divorced just last year.  In the course of our match emails and in planning for our first date, I researched dating habits in Russia.  I am sure all of you know what happens when you do a search that includes Russia and Dating!  The Russian lady here in the US and I did not have a strong connection, but there were certain things about her that I particularly liked.  She was not afraid to tell me what she did and did not like.  She was more sophisticated and dressed much better than the other women I dated from Match.  She seemed a little more educated and I was totally seduced by her accent.

I started to look at pictures on Elenasmodels.  As a nonmember you can only see the main profile picture.  Frankly, I was surprised at the number of very attractive women on the site.  I looked and found out that you could register for free and see all the pictures.  So I did.  At this point, the idea of a trip to Russia, actually trying to get to know someone from a foreign country, and all that would entail was not my interest.  I wanted to look at more pictures of pretty Russian women.

On match.com, I would receive maybe one email from a woman every one or two months.  Women would respond to my emails to approximately 15% of the time.  (That is a guess and probably an optimistic one.)  Imagine how surprised I was when my inbox began filling up!

At this point I had done more reading, more studying, and knew a little about the process of marrying a FSUW.  It still seemed to me a dream more than a plan, but I decided I would pay for membership at elenasmodels.  In a short amount of time I had narrowed my choices down to 3 or 4.  One of them was the first women that sent me a message.  She was also the one I was most interested in.  I spent about a month until nearly Christmas emailing all of them.  I really liked one of them.  It was at this time that I decided I would inform Elena about a health issue she would need to know about if we were to go any farther.

I told her she should research it and decide if it is something she can deal with.  For a couple of days we continued to email back and forth until on Dec 26th she informed me she was not interested in me.  I was unhappy, but did not have a lot of emotional involvement at this point, so it was not terribly difficult to deal with.  On December 27th she emailed me and asked me some personal questions and told me that she could not stop thinking about me.  The questions she asked were rather simple, she was worried about moving to a strange country, with no language, no job and no ability to take care of herself if anything happened to me.  She wanted to know if I would be able to provide for her.  In her words, she did not wish to be rich, but did want to be comfortable.  I reassured her, explained life insurance to her, told her that as a man I would not leave her on her own even should I die.  Since that day, I have sent her an email every morning.  It is the first thing she does in the morning, go in to see and read what I have written for that day.

I told her in December that due to my business (CPA) I would not be able to travel to see her until mid April.  She agreed to that.  We have continued to stay in contact on a daily basis by email.  After we were separated for one week, she had to travel to her godmothers funeral, we decided we would talk on Skype every day.  Lately we have worked out, 5am for me and her lunch time, or my lunchtime and 8pm for her.  We have had a few difficulties, misunderstandings due to translations, some over concern on my part about being scammed.  She initially wanted to set up an apartment, an interpreter and driver for our first meeting.  I was cautious, too cautious probably, but we worked it out and I arranged an apartment with Chris at travel2sevastopol and Elena will meet me with the interpreter and a driver for the trip from Simperofol to Sevastopol.

The trip is set for April 14th to April 21st.  She has her own train tickets, purchased by her.  I have my plane tickets and have begun accumulating supplies.  We talk every day, email at least every day.  Ihave met her daughter on Skype and she has met my son on Skype.  I am no longer on Elenasmodels, I hid my account and since that time my 3 months ran out.  She has hidden her profile on elenasmodels.  We did not discuss this, it seems we both hid our accounts at the same time.

So have at it... Make predictions, use what has transpired to predict and let's see who is most correct.

Other things you may like to know:  We get along very comfortably, she has never sent me a suggestive photo nor have I sent one to her, I am 50 and she is 41, we have quite a few things in common, and we both are able to make the other laugh.

[Faux Pas]

P

Things seemed to have moved and progressed along comfortably for you and her. It doesn't really matter what anyone here thinks but, seeing how you asked I do not mind pointing out a couple of things.

How can you communicate on Skype yet, need a translator for your trip? Communicating with this lady is going to be paramount but keep in mind, a terp is a third wheel and interference

You should have made all of your own arrangements. As good as the warm and fuzzy you get from this lady it could go South in a matter of minutes from meeting or a few days. You could wind up not so fond of her or she not so fond of you and you have someone involved in your accommodations without your best interest in mind. Check the archives at RWD. They are wrought with like stories.

You appear from your posts to have a deep emotional attachment to this lady already. That could cloud your judgment and easily set you up for disappointment. Keep your mind open. Chances are great she is not in real life what you have formulated in your mind.

What is your back up plan if things do go South before your trip is up?

[CDW]

As you are going on a WOVO trip, make sure you have a Plan B ready just in case things do not work out.

I wish you the best luck in your trip

[Hammer2722]

I agree with everything that Faux Pas has said. Especially about having a backup plan should things go South with you two. Even if it is just to play the tourist. I have heard Sevastopol is a nice city to visit!

[mendeleyev]

Faux Pas has offered some excellent advice and I echo his sentiments and as the other guys have indicated you need to have an alternate plan on how to spend your time in-country in case you too don't mesh in real life.

Just some additional thoughts...personally I don't go around discussing financial matters, including life insurance, with someone I've never met.  I think you don't either in most cases, but here you were reacting in the moment, trying to save a relationship that hasn't even started yet.  Discussing finances too early is just as bad as if you were to show up with loads of photos of your new car, big house, swimming pool, etc.  Guys do that all the time but it really isn't appropriate for a first visit and does nothing more than act as shark bait to any female sharks you happen to meet.

Relax about the scammers.  In reality if you want to meet one in the FSU you'll have to search long and hard.  The easiest way not to be scammed is not let yourself be scammed.  By that I mean don't send money to someone you barely know or have never met and once you arrive don't be led into expensive shopping expeditions or a continual parade of expensive restaurants and bars.  A woman who wants to impress you in the right way will do her best to show how responsible she can be with your money. 

At the same time there is a temptation for guys to be so fearful of largely non-existent scammers that they become cheapskates on a trip.  Pay for the meals, buy a Metro card for each of you for that week(s), surprise her with a flower or ice cream cone when you're out walking to see the sights or in park.  Many of the parks have food kiosks in the park or nearby so take the lead in buying some picnic items to make it a fun outing. 

When courting my wife, and we courted on the ground locally for over a year, I was never asked to purchase a new cell phone or fur coat or any of that kind of thing.  She wasn't wealthy but she had pride and good manners.  There was one time, about 8-9 months into our relationship when we were walking thru the underground shopping mall, Okhotny Ryad, along Manezhnaya Plaza in Moscow.  A pretty dress in the window of one of the shops caught her eye and she wanted to try it on.  We had a date for the Bolshoi coming up and she timidly asked me if I thought that "we" should buy the dress.  Mind you, this was 8-9 months into a serious dating relationship and I was the guy who had enjoyed tons of free meals in her family home because they refused any offer to help pay for food.  I did bring gifts like chocolates and wine and small flowers for her mum from time to time but the hospitality they extended to me far outweighed any of those.

So, when she asked about the dress I said no.  She quietly handed the dress back to the salesperson, and in hindsight that was one of my biggest mistakes during our courtship period.  Only later did she let me know how much that rejection had hurt her at the time.  I still cringe when thinking about that afternoon because in reality it wasn't that expensive and she had gone to great lengths to be frugal with my money and we were already in the wedding planning stage.  I'd go back and buy her two dresses if I could relive that moment.  She has plenty of dresses now so I think we're over it.

[Chelseaboy]

Pkeel,
           From my personal experience,using the womans interpreter is not a good idea.
 
That Interpreter will be in total control of any meetings between you and the woman,and will not be working for you and may actually work against you,although i assume it will be you that will be paying for her/his services .
 
I would tell this woman that you wish to use your own Interpreter,and if she insists on using hers,then tell her she can pay for that service.
 
I personally don't agree with Mendeleyev's comments about non-existent scammers in the FSU.
Ukraine has plenty of prodaters and scammers operating from the "marriage" agencies there,although they are normally in the under 35 group.However her wanting to arrange your apartment,the taxi and driver,and her own Interpreter is typical prodater behaviour.
 
Don't offer to buy expensive gifts or take her to the most expensive restaurants in town,just treat her like you would a date in your own country..with respect,and see what happens.
 
Good luck,and i hope everything works out well.
 
 

[Patagonie]

You are now trapped in the VO.
Not too bad if it works . The problem for a newbie is that he is always bedazzling by FSU women. As Faux Pas told you it can cloud your lucidity.

"I am no longer on Elenasmodels, I hid my account and since that time my 3 months ran out."
Good because she did the same almost in the same time.
Bad because now you have no longer any contact neither other backup, you success or you burn.


The trap has started when you pool few ladies : you never define a strategy and let you go by the appealing photos and the sucess return answer. So you are played by the game rather than conducting your chances.
The trap is closed. If i remember Jack says that it works one on three times or one on four times.

keep the head cool and define what you want and what you don't want. If any psychological issues or bad habit, hit the eject button in the cockpit.

[Patagonie]

Oh i missed this one :

THe real men, with two, hire an interpreter and rent their flat (and will reimburse the woman for any travelling expense (train + taxi + food, minimum). First sign of weakness : you have authorized her to take the control, if she don't have very well intentioned she can start to walk on you.

The first one is the most important : YOU hire YOUR interpreter.

The trap is bigger than i thought.

[Pkeel]

I am enjoying this.

Keep on commenting.

[Patagonie]

Mendeleyev hits the nail on what Mark Davies tells as being "the overeact on scam". Which is a period, for what i have understood, when you are just aware of the phenomenon, and suddenly you see these type of issues everywhere.

But

as you are still a newbie,

You should stay focused and see prodaters  (and scammers) everywhere, because .... you are a newbie 


To keep your ass safe keep this in mind. When you will have two or three notches you can relax (two or three prodaters on your scoreboard).

I have met one who started to ask me money after the second trip ( ,  ), but i was ... a newbie , and bad adviced by a well intentioned friend 

[Patagonie]

To summarize the Mendeleyev's post, when you will have 8 months of free fucking and a dozen of meals for almost free at Mama's place, don't forget to buy her a dress if she asks 

If you score one this type of feat every month, she will ditch you for the mariage, and if married she will fill a divorce not so long after. 

[Patagonie]

But as you haven't see any part of her anatomy yet and don't enjoyed the family borsch, i would advice you to keep your $ in the pocket and don't buy any dress, nor any expansive gifts.
Till no relationship, no expansive gift (all under 50 $, and if you bring one less than 100 $).

[Gator]

Pkeel,
 
 
 
You have done better than most newbies.  There is nothing wrong with a VO trip, especially if you have talked and talked about serious matters (e.g., your health issue), have developed some reasonable feelings, and have not elevated your expectations to lofty levels.  IMO some VO men have too high expectations before meeting, which makes them overlook incompatibilities, bad behavior, etc. Being a CPA, however, I imagine that you have already covered many details.   

The key issues are the driver and the interpreter, other than possibility of not liking this woman upon meeting her .

Driver.   Letting her hire a driver and interpreter is a mistake only if the woman is a prodater.  A prodater will arrange an expensive driver and interpreter (and later the three will meet to divide your money).   If the price is reasonable, it is a good sign.   Please do not question her now about the price.  Even an indirect question such as "How much money should I bring?" is bad because it suggests you don't have plenty of money, have not prepared, and are unsure.  Real men in a RW's eyes have confidence,  know what to do, and do it.   If the price for the driver is too high, you have a bad sign and you must say something before continuing the meeting.  Maybe you do not get into the car (hence Plan B).  I don't know what is reasonable.  A long time ago I paid $75 for a 2-hour trip (good car).
 
Interpreter.  What is her proficiency in English?    The less English she knows, the more time you should take to develop the relationship.  I am talking years not months.    The lack of English affects her more than you.  Not only are serious conversations difficult, if she were to move to America, the lack of English would isolate her for a year or so.
 

[Gator]

A pretty dress in the window of one of the shops caught her eye and she wanted to try it on.  We had a date for the Bolshoi coming up and she timidly asked me if I thought that "we" should buy the dress.  Mind you, this was 8-9 months into a serious dating relationship......So, when she asked about the dress I said no.  She quietly handed the dress back to the salesperson, and in hindsight that was one of my biggest mistakes during our courtship period. 

This shows that even very intelligent men such as Mendeleyev make mistakes.  Imagine what inexperienced idiots such as me did.       
 
Mendeleyev's "Nyet" is a serious mistake considering that she had already tried it on and probably looked fabulous in it.  It would have been a huge mistake if she were one of those genuine, gentle RW who are not aggressive about asking for things (and I gather she is because he impresses me as a gentle soul).   
 
Mendy, she forgave you because she loved you; however, I imagine that over the next couple of years  you paid for that dress tenfold.

[ML]

As a careful CPA, you surely know the foolish decision you have made; but have decided to do it anyway, so probably no stopping you at this point.

But anyway, to show you a worst case scenario, read this horror story.
Ignore the fact he called it a 'Pro-dater' story, because you will quickly explain that title away with respect to your current gal.

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=10490.0

[Hammer2722]

hiring a private driver to go from Simferopol to Sevastopol should not cost more than than $40.00 I would Imagine. I'm sure there are people here who could give you a better estimate.

[BillyB]

So have at it... Make predictions, use what has transpired to predict and let's see who is most correct.

I predict wedding bells in the first 2-3 days of your meeting. On the second day your lady discovers that you have a fat wallet and she supplies you with a healthy dose of vodka. Next morning you wake up with a headache and learn you are officially married!


Nobody can really predict what's going to happen. Track record is most guys who go to the FSU do not marry the girl. I believe your success depends on you more than the lady you're visiting. Nobody knows you well enough to make any prediction.


If a lady gives a man a first date, to a certain degree, he's been accepted by the lady. It depends on a man's performance if he's to get a second date. Even if a guy performed well on a first date, he can still get rejected if he and the lady aren't compatible. You too should be ready to reject the lady you're visiting if you envision a difficult life with her.


Do not talk about what can happen or what has happened to you in the past pertaining to scammers. Do not give the lady the impression you are naive with women, dumb with your money, or trust her at the same level of scammers. You are 50 yo. You are supposed to be wise and have your stuff together.


Do not talk about your health issue again. She does not need to hear it twice. If you talk about it again, she may think that you think she forgot or is dumb which insults her brain or that you're insecure. You're not supposed to be insecure at 50.

[ML]

Mendeleyev's "Nyet" is a serious mistake considering that she had already tried it on and probably looked fabulous in it.

I want to move this away from the particular people involved, and make a general statement.

I do not think it is wrong for a man to use the 'nyet' word whether or  not the woman (or anyone) has tried on the clothes, the ring, driven the car or whatever.

If you lose a gal or friend over that, it is probably a good thing for you.

And to end with a bit of humor: For a woman to hear nyet is probably better than to hear it makes her butt look big.

[calmissile]

Pkeel,

I pretty much concur with everything said above.
The only issue I might have is with the driver, interpreter, and lodging arrangements.
Their advice is surely accurate if you would happen to be meeting a prodater.

I have yet to meet a prodater in Ukraine (in person).  Sure they are there, but since you are prepared to spot them you should have no problem.

Based on my experiences I offer the following, not necessarily advice but rather a different experience than some of the other guys.

Interpreter.....
I only hired an 'on the ground interpreter' once a couple of years ago.It was the friend of my date.
The problem I had with this arrangement was that the interpreter wanted to continually interject her own opinions about the relationship instead of doing the job of facilitating communications between us.  She had also overstayed her visa in the US and was deported back to Ukraine, leaving her husband there to pay off back taxes and fines.  I never felt that she was being an interpreter but rather a matchmaker or matchbreaker.   LOL.

I don't know how easy it is for you to find your own interpreter, but if you do I would make sure that he/she knows what they are hired for and not trying to meddle in your lives.  As Gator pointed out, the two of you need to get together and discover each others personalities.  My suggestion is to focus on just having fun together and put off any serious questions or advancing to the next stage until later.  Fortunately, on my last trips I never needed to hire an interpreter.  By using my Galaxy Tablet with a good translator program we were able to communicate well enough to figure out where we were going and all the rest of the daily stuff.  The only downside was that we needed Wi-Fi to use the tablet.  When not available, we used a simple off line dictionary to translate single words which worked well enough.  It's amazing how well you can get by with gestures and sometimes simple sketches to communicate.  The most important thing is to have fun together.

As for apartment and taxi rentals, my experience has been very favorable with letting my date make the arrangements.  The one thing I did to avoid getting ripped off was to ask my date what something costs (apartment, etc) before she booked them.  I see that some posts say this is not a good idea and conveys that you are cheap.  It never seemed to bother any of the women and in fact after a few transactions it became apparent that they appreciated your sense of frugality and always told me the price before making a decision.  Once you have trust in each other, your gal can save you a ton of money.  Clearly, they are frugal themselves and know how to get the most bang for the buck.  You seem well prepared to sense and avoid pro-daters, I expect you will have no problems letting your gal assist with expenditures and accommodations.

Go forth and have fun!

[Pkeel]

hiring a private driver to go from Simferopol to Sevastopol should not cost more than than $40.00 I would Imagine. I'm sure there are people here who could give you a better estimate.

Chris from Travel2sevastopol charges $75 for the trip.  I will know all the prices and things before I go.  The interpreter charges $10 per hour. 

Just so everyone understands.  The second email I got from the interpreter included her fee and the estimate of an apartment for 40 to 60 dollars per night depending on the season.  She does not rent apartments, she was just telling me the rate so I would not get overcharged.  I asked her about the apartments from Chris and she recommended which were in the best area of town.

BillyB:  Thank-you, you are right nobody knows, that is the challenge, anyone can look back and say you should not have done this or that, but I am really enjoying reading all of the comments.

[CDW]

Just remember that it is a long way to visit for a failed WOVO trip without any other plans! 

[Gator]

Just remember that it is a long way to visit for a failed WOVO trip without any other plans!

One Plan B is to travel the country.  There are many interesting sights and sites.  Immersing yourself in the country is more than a travel adventure.  It will help you understand the mentality of the women you meet.   
 
Another Plan B is to simply have the name and telephone number of an agency.  They can arrange a date in less than 24 hours.

[Hammer2722]

Chris from Travel2sevastopol charges $75 for the trip.

I hope this is round trip!!!!!


I paid 80.00 round trip to go from Simferopol to Eupatoria (70KM) which is a little more than an hour 1 way. Sevastopol is 80 KM

[BillyB]

One Plan B is to travel the country.

Travel the country is easy to say but hard to do when a guy is depressed. My uncle once told me "the best way to forget about a woman is to get with another woman."


If Pkeel is open to having a backup plan, he can contact agencies in the city, or use a dating site. He can go to the main square and talk with ladies there or sit in a coffee shop, introduce himself and ask to sit with a lady at her table. When I was in the FSU,  just by walking around the city and sitting down having coffee, I was able to line up to 3 dates a day. Could've been more if there were more than 24 hours in a day.


If Pkeel does use a backup plan, some ladies he'll meet will ask him how many times he's been to FSU or why he's in town. Many men hesitate, get nervous, look as if they're hiding something, and/or lie. Pkeel can be completely honest and look good at the same time. My wife asked me how many times I was in the FSU, when was the last time I was here, and why I came. I told her I met a lady on the internet, visited her less than a year ago, and came to the FSU to find love but I did not find love.  That is the only truth most FSU women will believe. If a man tells a lady he's there on business or tourism, she may believe he's lying even if it is truth. Also never bad mouth any of the ladies in your past when talking with your current lady.


Pkeel, you don't know your fate and fate isn't always going to come to you and knock on your door. You made one opportunity for yourself and if it doesn't work out with the lady you're visiting, then make more opportunities and you may find your destiny.

[JayH]

At the same time there is a temptation for guys to be so fearful of largely non-existent scammers that they become cheapskates on a trip.  Pay for the meals, buy a Metro card for each of you for that week(s), surprise her with a flower or ice cream cone


When courting my wife, and we courted on the ground locally for over a year, I was never asked to purchase a new cell phone or fur coat or any of that kind of thing.  She wasn't wealthy but she had pride and good manners.  There was one time, about 8-9 months into our relationship when we were walking thru the underground shopping mall, Okhotny Ryad, along Manezhnaya Plaza in Moscow.  A pretty dress in the window of one of the shops caught her eye and she wanted to try it on.  We had a date for the Bolshoi coming up and she timidly asked me if I thought that "we" should buy the dress.  Mind you, this was 8-9 months into a serious dating relationship and I was the guy who had enjoyed tons of free meals in her family home because they refused any offer to help pay for food.  I did bring gifts like chocolates and wine and small flowers for her mum from time to time but the hospitality they extended to me far outweighed any of those.

So, when she asked about the dress I said no.  She quietly handed the dress back to the salesperson, and in hindsight that was one of my biggest mistakes during our courtship period.  Only later did she let me know how much that rejection had hurt her at the time.  I still cringe when thinking about that afternoon because in reality it wasn't that expensive and she had gone to great lengths to be frugal with my money and we were already in the wedding planning stage.  I'd go back and buy her two dresses if I could relive that moment.  She has plenty of dresses now so I think we're over it.

Mende-- with all due respect on scammers I think your remoteness from the coalface  is colouring your wallet-- correction thoughts!!
My view is that if a girl is not sincere and it costs a guy money-- that is scamming. So I am very much in ChelseaBoy's corner on that one. The other point about guys becoming cheapskates is extremely relevent. My view-- pay for everything and be a man .Any western guy is earning a fortune by way of comparison-- so do not get paranoid about spending.

The next part--I am shocked at you Mende!! Although it was a long time ago and in vastly different environment  to today-- that mitigates for you.That is a huge mistake.Then and now.
I mention it because so many guys complain --misinterpret on buying things.Once a relationship is developed-- accept the responsibility for her and her life( yep--that was me encouraging Paulie!!)-- look at what you would do in your own world-- or what you have done-- apply that where it is even more important to man up !!