Russian Bear - The Missing Source of Insightful Information about RW

[Gator]

Recently we have been honored to have a new member who brings something that has indeed long been missing at RWD.  His name is Russian Bear.  He is a RM who writes well and insightfully.  He brings to RWD the perspective of the Russian man, the very man who is the competition for the RW we pursue.
 
Russian Bear reminds me of the many RM I have met, namely he is very direct and pragmatic.   I start this topic to draw attention to his posts because I feel that he may be flying under the radar and not being widely read by inexperienced American men. 
 
 
Many inexperienced American men come to this forum trying to learn more about RW.  Women are women everywhere, yet there are differences because FSU history and culture has created what I call the RW mentality.  A propensity for skepticism is just one example.
 
From whom does an inexperienced AM learn?  He has two sources:  1) other AM who have made several trips to the FSU and who may even have married a RW and 2) RW who have made the decision to emigrate from the FSU.   
 
As a RM, Russian Bear represent a third source, namely the "local" competition for the hearts of the RW we pursue.   The MOB agencies frequently state that the number of marriage-age RW is much larger than the number of available good RM.  The agencies assert that too many RM drink too much, don't work, gamble too much, are not interested in children, and are not faithful.  I know this is not true because I have met many RM in Russia and I have seen them with their families at resorts such as those in Turkey.   I consider the agency hype as wrong as the attitude of some American men that all AW are fat. 
 
I believe you will benefit immensely from reading what Russian Bear has to say.    Keep in mind that the RW we pursue have dated RM before we met them.  Their dating experiences are almost totally with RM.  In other words, RW have been "TRAINED" by RM.   So here is an opportunity to listen to a trainer.
 
Today he wrote  something that should be a etched in stone (and it flies in the face of the opinions of many AM experienced with RW).

Or some of you asks "when I have to start taking care of her?" Hey, guys, at least since the day you had got her in your bed I know our women and I can say, that if you come here and you are a person whom she likes, she will give you all her time, all her care, all her love. But you, you will still thinking when you should start to take care Remember, that some women never ask you for something. She just watches and one day makes her decision. Don't be surprised if it is not what you were expecting

My experience is that many RW do not date men concurrently.  If they find someone worthy to date, they stay with that man and see how far the relationship develops.  If the relationship continues to progress, they stay.  If it hits a big bump in the road, they say paka, and it is irreversible.
 
If you are lucky enough to find a RW who likes you and shares her bed with you, I assert it is different with her than it is with AW.   One difference is this aspect of taking care of her.  It does not mean that you start giving her an allowance; however, you should ask her about her life and look for clues that she may need some help.   As Russian Bear says, many good RW will not ask for help; however, they expect a strong man to know when help is needed and to provide some help.  For example, her young son may need to see a dentist.  A RW will appreciate receiving help, enough for her to go to a better dentist.  If you do this you will not be considered "greedy" or "egotistic," both the kiss of death.
 
 
Another part of Russian Bear's post:
 

So, their parents had been growing up when "only Soviet people were the happiest in the whole world" and when you all were "our imperialistic enemies" etc. Her parents have watched a movie "Интердевочка" and the idea at those times was that every girl, who has some relationship with a foreigner, is a "currency" prostitute - валютная проститутка. It is not my idea! I don't even agree with what we were taught, but it is a fact. Your girl would be pointed out by fingers - her friends, neighbours, colleagues etc. Her parents would have a lot of questions from their friends ( with all kinds of grins ).

I have walked a few RW to their apartments.  There are always babushkas sitting on a bench in unkempt garb, eating sunflower seeds.  It happens, the scene that Russian Bear describes.  You can make it less uncomfortable for your RW by not speaking, not showing affection as you walk with her in such settings.
 
Russian bear has more jewels hidden in the threads.  I hope you find him as interesting as I do.

[lonedrake]

 I agree. His posts have been very helpful to me.  Here is another example of one of his posts that touched me.

A lot of them just need your love and want to be loved, to have a happy family etc. It is not their guilt that there are much less of males here, in Ukraine, comparing with women quantity. To find a single good guy of his 40s or 50s age is almost impossible thing. But every normal woman dreams about family ( I don't mean those who you wouldn't need ). And you guys, you come here to have some funs. Some of you come here to different women, choosing the best of some for you. You come and then go back home ( or getting another woman ), leaving this one with her hope that you like her and that you will return. But you.. You just had some fun with her for one trip. Or some of you, having found some nice and pretty women, come to her again and again ( I have read about such cases ) and you can come for monthes, years, not  being in a hurry with a marriage. Why? - some of you think. Why do I have to take some responsibility for her? - you think as it is more convenient just to have such a woman who is as nice as you have never dreamed to find and get there, in the USA. I have read here such funny advices that some of you give to other members - "First you should see her family, her friends, her work etc". That's as funny as silly. Although women do it - they introduce you to their parents, to their friends. You and she visit a lot of places being where she lives. I don't know the way how it works in the USA, but here, when a woman brings his man to her parents for introducing to her parents, it normally means that she introduces her fiance. But you ( an abstract man ) come and come here, for the second time,... for fifth time, for sixth one, spending a nice time with her. Have you ever thought what a woman feels being asked by her parents, friends or even neighbours "Who is he?", "Are you going to marry? When?" etc. You never think about a woman, about how she lives then being " a target" for gossips. I have a daughter and I wouldn't wish her such a man, who just comes here for months or years and then simply disappears or who waits for the time when a woman says "You know, I don't see a future of our relationship and I want to stop it", that would be the best variant for you as it is not you who leave her, it was just her decision. Although then some of you will post here ( or on other forums ) "I spent time, money and she said Good-bye". What were you waiting for? A

[Boethius]

All the FSUM who have posted here - Bear, Belvis, Eduard, Stirlitz, Alex, and possum, have provided insightful information and are very welcome additions IMO.  They prove that the stereotypes of FSUM is not accurate.  The only one who didn't meet the criteria was the pimp from Odessa.

[ML]

I will toss out the wet blanket here.

Yes, RB has some interesting and even useful comments.

But, his sentences are also full of 'over the top' statements that tend to exaggerate in both directions.

For instance, view his frequent use of 'all' or 'none' and other such synonyms when referring to FSUW, AW, RM, WM, etc.

At times, he almost sounds like 'Agency Hype' in reverse form, or some such.

I agree with Boe, he is saying much of what some FSUW have already  said many times.  And it is true that the men here will generally give more credence to what he says that what the females say.  Because we think that the females will often give the 'over the top' opinions.

Now, if RB and the FSUW here would tone down the 'over the top' statements, and more careful in the use of the 'all' and 'none' type of words; then their advice would be taken much more to heart.

And yes, of course the WM here also give these 'over the top' comments . . . but no one gives a sheeeeet what they (we) say, so it's not that much of a distraction.   

[GQBlues]

...Now, if RB and the FSUW here would tone down the 'over the top' statements, and more careful in the use of the 'all' and 'none' type of words; then their advice would be taken much more to heart....

Personally, I like MaryKugut a lot! Her perspective of this affair is apparently on target. As one member attested, "truer words were never spoken". Now that's what I'm talking about.
 

[Boethius]

Now, if RB and the FSUW here would tone down the 'over the top' statements, and
more careful in the use of the 'all' and 'none' type of words; then their advice
would be taken much more to heart.

I disagree with this.  Posters generally believe what they want to believe.  RB once posted, in a very gentle manner, that it is rare in Ukraine to see huge age gaps in couples (over 15 years)  as well as the Ukrainian attitude toward such relationships.  No comment on it because it doesn't conform to what WM want to believe, nor what the FSUW they are pursuing are telling them.  It's human nature, I suppose.
 

And yes, of course the WM here also give these 'over the top' comments . . .
but no one gives a sheeeeet what they (we) say, so it's not that much of a distraction.   

Present poster excluded (and some others - you know who you are  ), why would others listen to the ramblings of a bunch of moral degenerates?

[ML]

Quote ML
<blockquote>Now, if RB and the FSUW here would tone down the 'over the top' statements, and
more careful in the use of the 'all' and 'none' type of words; then their advice
would be taken much more to heart.</blockquote>

I disagree with this.  Posters generally believe what they want to believe.  RB once posted, in a very gentle manner, that it is rare in Ukraine to see huge age gaps in couples (over 15 years)  as well as the Ukrainian attitude toward such relationships.  No comment on it because it doesn't conform to what WM want to believe, nor what the FSUW they are pursuing are telling them.  It's human nature, I suppose.
 

But Boe, I said 'if over top toned down' we would believe more.
Taken to limit, this means that a person would have  to refrain from 'over the top' for X (X to be defined later) period of time, before they would be believable on any advice. 

i.e. Not just avoid 'over the top' statements on their current advice, but on all past advice.  Of course, this rules out believing anyone here about anything.   

[Gator]

All the FSUM who have posted here - Bear, Belvis, Eduard, Stirlitz, Alex, and possum, have provided insightful information and are very welcome additions IMO.  They prove that the stereotypes of FSUM is not accurate.  The only one who didn't meet the criteria was the pimp from Odessa.

A couple of those have skin in the game and it has clearly influenced their perspective.  I like what Belvis has to say.  Who is Alex?  Where is possum? 
 
For some reason I really appreciate Russian Bear's style and substance. 
 
 

        RB once posted, in a very gentle manner, that it is rare in Ukraine to see huge age gaps in couples (over 15 years)  as well as the Ukrainian attitude toward such relationships.  No comment on it because it doesn't conform to what WM want to believe, nor what the FSUW they are pursuing are telling them.  It's human nature, I suppose.                 

Maybe no comment because it is the obvious truth, obvious to those who have ever taken a trip.   There are only a couple here at RWD  who will debate against the obvious truth.
 

[mies]

I will toss out the wet blanket here.

Yes, RB has some interesting and even useful comments.

But, his sentences are also full of 'over the top' statements that tend to exaggerate in both directions.

For instance, view his frequent use of 'all' or 'none' and other such synonyms when referring to FSUW, AW, RM, WM, etc.

I suspect it's a frequently used figure of speech in Russian language, being translated into English. He writes in English the way he thinks in Russian, and the translation appears as a  stronger version than what he really means.

[mies]

I agree. His posts have been very helpful to me.  Here is another example of one of his posts that touched me.

I have not read his posts other than quotes in this thread, but he is definitely right about the things he is talking about in the quotes.
I have once "counseled" a female friend (Ukrainian) of mine on her relationship with a foreign boyfriend. Her boyfriend wanted to meet her parents (formally, at the dinner), and he also wanted to be introduced to her colleagues. There was also some additional detail in his request, which I cannot remember at the moment, and this detail in Ukraine happens in "dinner introductions" only on one occasion, when the marriage proposal is made.
I told my friend she should explain to the foreign boyfriend that in Ukraine there is no such custom when girls/women bring the guy over to the dinner and introduce him to her parents with the words "this is the guy I have sex with, his name is Joe." In many cases, "formal dinner with parents" means that the guy will ask girl's parents for her hand. And most parents when such dinners are discussed, ask their daughter "is he a seriously-minded guy? is he going to ask us for your hand?"
The solution I suggested was that she explains the situation to her foreign boyfriend, and agrees to introduce him to her parents, but they skip the detail he was insisting on. The girl talked to the guy, and said: you are welcomed to meet my parents, but this normally means that you are considering marriage. If you want to also have this particular detail in the meeting, you must understand that it is the equivalent of marriage proposal. And if you do not propose - then it will be offense to my family. Maybe you want to think about it and tell me what you want to do.
The guy got instantly very serious - he literally paused for several minutes in the conversation, and said he must think about it and the conversation was over. Two days later he said he has change of schedule (some work-related trip or maybe a visit to the dentist) and he can't meet with girl's parents. He kept dating with my friend for some time, but broke up few months later.


I would be curious to hear men's opinion on this case. What do you think happened? 

[calmissile]

Great post Mies.
If not already present, there should be a topic in the newbie section about "Meeting the Parents".

There appears to be a large difference in culture between the US and FSU on this subject.  In America it is much more casual. Oftentimes couples that are dating integrate family activities.  Sometimes the couples even take vacations together with the families, long before any proposal of marriage.

I recall reading somewhere about all the reasons that a FSU woman hesitates to introduce her 'boyfriend' to her family and friends.  It is often been misinterpreted by WM  that she has something to hide or is not sincere.  As I recall, there were many legitimate reasons including such things as not wanting to be embarrassed if they broke up, not wanting friends to know she is dating a foreigner (stigma), and also that she had not yet accepted the person as 'her man'.

To a WM, it is natural to want to meet the family as soon as possible and observe her in her natural environment.  It is our culture in the US to do so. Having a better understanding of the FSU culture would help alleviate some of the concerns that WM have about the 'meeting the family' issue.  It's probably worthy of being a separate topic somewhere.

It's my experience that when dating previously married women in FSU, there is much less formality about meeting the parents, however the custom of not being introduced to their friends still remains (until they decide they are going to get married).

As far as your example in your post, it would appear to me that the guy is obviously not ready to make a commitment at this time.  It could be that he was frightened by the way the topic of marriage was sprung on him, or that he was really not interested in marriage in the first place.

[GQBlues]

...I would be curious to hear men's opinion on this case. What do you think happened?   

The guy likely drank more Kool-aide, from a MOB discussion boards like this one, than necessary. It's a very popular 'expert advice' that the man must insist on meeting her parents during his visit as somehow this would separate her from a pro-dater or at least an insincere woman.
 
At the risk of debunking such an important expert 'advice', I would just suggest maybe the possibility of you and Russian Bear are misguided. 
 
But anyway, in the US a girl normally introduces her BF to her parents when it's determined the relationship had taken into something more than casual. Another reason is when the gal is still in her teens and is still living at home....
 
Of course, there's a 'borrowed' tradition too where the man, as a sign of respect, comes to the gal's home and ask the parents blessing for his intent to marry the daughter.

[calmissile]

Actually, in the US it is quite common for the parents to want to meet anyone their daughter is going out with even if its casual.

[Gator]

I told my friend she should explain to the foreign boyfriend that in Ukraine there is no such custom when girls/women bring the guy over to the dinner and introduce him to her parents with the words "this is the guy I have sex with, his name is Joe."

 

I would be curious to hear men's opinion on this case. What do you think happened? 

You said they broke up.  So evidently they got back together.
 
I dated many RW.  Most quickly introduced me to their children (usually the next day if the kids were young).  Parents?  This happened only twice, and both RW eventually became my wife.  Both times I met the mama early.  It took years before I met papa and drunk a bottle of vodka with him.

[GQBlues]

So if the gal was casually dating 3 different men, she's supposed to bring them all home for introduction? I don't think so...

[Gator]

 
At the risk of debunking such an important expert 'advice', I would just suggest maybe the possibility of you and Russian Bear are misguided.   
 

And possibly Mies and Russian Bear know more about California than you.  I know you met you future in-laws early.  However, your future wife was very young.  Was she living at home?

[GQBlues]

And possibly Mies and Russian Bear know more about California than you.

Possibility is always there but the probability is rather small.

  I know you met you future in-laws early.  However, your future wife was very young.  Was she living at home?

Third visit....would not have conformed to the expert advice given here ad nauseum. My wife was 21 when we met. 

[ML]

As dating teenager in USA, I was often in various girl's home very quickly.  Even just walking her home first time, the mother would ask us to come in for some soda and cookies.

And having dinner with her family and mine came quickly and without much notice.  i.e. We would be just 'hanging out' together outdoors and someone would open door and ask if I wanted to eat something with them.

Such meals with family meant absolutely nothing with respect to the seriousness of the relationship.

However, I fully understand it is different in other countries.  Some day they will have it right like we do in USA!   

[Gator]

So if the gal was casually dating 3 different men, she's supposed to bring them all home for introduction? I don't think so...

IMO not common for RW to date casually  (sex) three different men, or even two.

[Gator]

Actually, in the US it is quite common for the parents to want to meet anyone their daughter is going out with even if its casual.

True, and a necessity if she were living at home. 
 
The father will pull the young man aside and whisper in his ear, "Whatever you do to her, I will do to you."   

[GQBlues]

Actually, in the US it is quite common for the parents to want to meet anyone their daughter is going out with even if its casual.

So if the gal was casually dating 3 different men, she's supposed to bring them all home for introduction? I don't think so...

 
IMO not common for RW to date casually  (sex) three different men, or even two.

 
 
 
 
 
 

[YoungBuck]

I like Russian bear's insight into the culture. We're the same way, and I don't parade girls at home unless I'm seriously interested in marrying them. Both times I brought someone over, they immediately became possessive of me and argumentative with my family. Irrespective of RW, AW, MW, any W I would consider marrying I would have to meet her parents once and she my family (at least once too). It's kind of the last test before I would contemplate marriage.

And yes, I also hate explaining to my mom how she was mean/annoying to my brothers + sisters and that no, my brothers and sisters are annoying but she was out of line.

[Gator]

   
 

 
You got me.  One for you.  Next time please help us old farts by quoting the text to which your response is directed.  Sometimes we get interrupted, such as the bookie returning my call.

[Vaughn]

Actually, in the US it is quite common for the parents to want to meet anyone their daughter is going out with even if its casual.

I see it becoming less common.
 
I've never pulled the reins in too tight on our daughters, but one residual courtesy I brought along from my own dating years is still in effect: Nobody, but nobody - pulls up to the curb and honks their horn, expecting our little girl to emerge. A few have tried, and I wasn't necessarily hard on them, but "encouraged" them to come inside and at least pay their respects to her mother...  it's amusing to witness the wide-eyed buck realizing he's actually being held to a standard known as gentlemanliness.
 
We believe it shouldn't have to involve any shred of seriousness of relationship for the young guys to step up and acknowledge a girl's parents, but we in turn acknowledge that ours is a fading expectation and quickly becoming "old-fashioned"...    I believe our girls secretly like knowing that we give a damn enough to draw that simple line.     

[Misha]

Her boyfriend wanted to meet her parents (formally, at the dinner), and he also wanted to be introduced to her colleagues. There was also some additional detail in his request, which I cannot remember at the moment, and this detail in Ukraine happens in "dinner introductions" only on one occasion, when the marriage proposal is made.

I was fortunate, I couple weeks after we started dating, my wife's nephew celebrated his birthday. As there were other guests invited, my wife had me over at the same time. Then, she knew that I was the one but I did not ask her family's permission to marry my wife then. Nor, was anybody expecting it either as it was an event for my wife's nephew.