The "Soviet" housing project that didn't work in the US/The Pruitt-Igoe

[Ooooops]

When we bought this old house it still had manure in the barn from the cows that used to be there, so we had to shovel it out and turned that barn into garage/work shop.      And later my Grandpa built me a really cool room in the upper part of that barn where hay used to be stored.       

[calmissile]

Thanks to those that helped fill in the blanks about the history of the land transition in the villages and collective farms, etc.  While I spent a fair amount of time in them, your info helped understand the transitions that occurred to get where they are now.

To the poster about the villages emptying out and the vacated homes becoming dachas...... I did see that in person.  One of the areas I was interested in purchasing a dacha near Cherkassy, UA my friends explained that this area used to be a bustling village and was gradually vacated as the residents moved into the cities.  In the aftermath, it is now what looks like a small town that was turned into a ghost town with many of the homes in terrible disrepair.  Only a small percentage of the vacant homes have been converted into dachas.

The good news is that you can purchase some of them for $3000 - $5000 and fix them up to be quite nice dachas.  Most of them are on 1 hector lots.  Probably not a good idea if you plan to hire local labor, but great as a do-it-yourself project.   My TR has photos of the dacha of my friends that is adjacent to the property I was going to purhase (waited too long to make a decision.  Now sold).

[Vasilisa]

I spent my childhood years in this "communal apartment" - 3 families in 3 room apartment with shared kitchen/bathroom.   My parents - young IT engineers, family of metal turner and a single drunkard who's occupation I forgot.  Quite a motley crew.   

The first place where we lived after I was born was like that. That was a very nice life school though, people of different social layers that have nothing in common living together. Truly amazing experience, it was like one big family, we went to different events together and had big celebrations, together, too.

I visited that place a couple of months ago, it's an expensive downtown apartment, but all rooms belong to one family now

[mendeleyev]

I visited that place a couple of months ago, it's an expensive downtown apartment, but all rooms belong to one family now

My cousin Natasha and husband German are doing just this. They started in a three room communal shared by three families. I've spent many a New Years' Eve celebration there are it is in the centre of Moscow. We'd pack 10-14+ of us into their room, the entry hall, and kitchen since the other families usually traveled at that time. Over time they purchased the second bedroom and have done some nice renovations. All that is necessary now is for the third person to sell and they'll have the apartment to themselves.

[Misha]

All that is necessary now is for the third person to sell and they'll have the apartment to themselves.

Knowing their plans, the final person will certainly do their best to extort get as much money as possible for the third and final room 

[Vasilisa]

Knowing their plans, the final person will certainly do their best to extort get as much money as possible for the third and final room 

LOL, I want to share a story about it. I have already told about the improvements made in the city, there were a lot of very old private houses in downtown and the authorities started destroying them building new apartment buildings, malls, etc, so some people sold their property but some very greedy people kept on negotiating the prices, then the authorities gave up and just ignored them and built the malls and apartment buildings around those old houses.

[ML]

Must have been a lot of inconsistencies in the enforcement of the rules regarding no gardens, no cows, etc., in various parts of Ukraine.

Ochka is right now at her parent's home at edge of small city near  Kyiv.  They have HUGE garden, pigs, cows, geese, chickens, rabbits. 
AND, they have had this same set-up . . . like forever . . . because her father's parents originally owned and passed on down sometime in late 1950s.  One and half hectare, or about 3.7 of our acres.

I tried to 'educate her' that people weren't allowed to own this private property, etc., during soviet  times.  She said I was badly misinformed because such ownership and small family farms was widespread in rural areas.

On her mother's side, a very large and prosperous farm was taken away from the family in the 1930s or so.

Her mother's mother worked on another large communal farm for her entire life.  In 1990s breakup, she and other workers were given ownership of parts of this large farm.  She got 5 hectares, or just a little over 12 of our acres.

[OlgaH]

LOL, I want to share a story about it. I have already told about the improvements made in the city, there were a lot of very old private houses in downtown and the authorities started destroying them building new apartment buildings, malls, etc, so some people sold their property but some very greedy people kept on negotiating the prices, then the authorities gave up and just ignored them and built the malls and apartment buildings around those old houses.

bad greedy people in Kazan, they even dare  put big signs "People live here. Thank you" on their "flea-pits" 

[Vasilisa]

Olga, is it a surprise that there are dirty quarters in any big city?!
 In NYC, Paris, LA, HongKong?! As for the people that enjoy dirt  and look  for it anywhere (and the one who looks normally finds) there is a saying in Russia: "Свинья везде грязь найдет". "A pig will find dirt anywhere".

And that's exactly the reason why I didn't want to mention the places I've lived at, because I knew Olga would spend days and night looking for disgusting stuff about it.

I just feel so sorry about Americans that have to deal with her now because if some kind of a crisis happens with the US so the US can't provide a decent quality of life and food for Olga and Olga has to move somewhere she will probably spend days and nights telling terrible stories about the US as well. I have never met people like her before.

[Boethius]

Must have been a lot of inconsistencies in the enforcement of the rules regarding no gardens, no cows, etc., in various parts of Ukraine.

Ochka is right now at her parent's home at edge of small city near  Kyiv.  They have HUGE garden, pigs, cows, geese, chickens, rabbits. 
AND, they have had this same set-up . . . like forever . . . because her father's parents originally owned and passed on down sometime in late 1950s.  One and half hectare, or about 3.7 of our acres.

I tried to 'educate her' that people weren't allowed to own this private property, etc., during soviet  times.  She said I was badly misinformed because such ownership and small family farms was widespread in rural areas.

On her mother's side, a very large and prosperous farm was taken away from the family in the 1930s or so.

Her mother's mother worked on another large communal farm for her entire life.  In 1990s breakup, she and other workers were given ownership of parts of this large farm.  She got 5 hectares, or just a little over 12 of our acres.

I could probably google the law, but I know that in the late 1970's, when I visited relatives, they complained that they could not have private plots of land, that they were reliant solely on what the collective farm gave them.  One relative's husband used to go into the forest near the village about an hour before sunset every night and forage for wood that he could sell.    And, this was after private plots were allowed by the CPSU.  But, that was in that particular region of Ukraine, which always faced more crackdowns than other regions, because of strong nationalist sentiment.

WRT Khrushchev, during Stalinist times, in some parts of the USSR, peasants were allowed to have small plots, and they paid a tax for their production.  Khrushchev at first allowed the private plots, but imposed a large tax.  Then, in about 1958, he abolished all private plots.  There was a large barn across from the communal apartment where my MIL lived.  People kept food in there, as they didn't have refrigerators, and a few had chickens for fresh eggs, and goats.  There were a few apple trees nearby as well.  My MIL remembers well when, after the edict that no private property would be allowed, officials came in and killed the chickens and goats, and chopped down the apple trees.  She said that happened all over Ukraine. If Ochka's family had private land, they were either in the party, or were in a village where the head of the collective farm defied party orders.  That was dangerous, given the informant system, but, as in most villages, almost everyone is somehow related, maybe it worked.  Or finally, their area may have been part of some of the experiments the Soviets did in the 1960's to try to increase production, which included communal private lands.  The Soviet government knew that private plots produced more food than communal farms, and they experimented, in some regions, by allowing private plots vs communal private plots.  That experiment was fairly short lived though, less than a decade.

I should add, these restrictions were for those living on state agricultural lands.  It did not apply to dachas.

[OlgaH]

Olga, is it a surprise that there are dirty quarters in any big city?!
 In NYC, Paris, LA, HongKong?! As for the people that enjoy dirt  and look  for it anywhere (and the one who looks normally finds) there is a saying in Russia: "Свинья везде грязь найдет". "A pig will find dirt anywhere".

No, it is not surprising that there are dirty quarters in any big city, and it is not surprising that you put very quick your labels as "greedy people" and make your "amusing" deductions to protect your ignorance as Faux Pas noticed 

There never was a conversation. just a display of your ignorance. c'est la vie

Vasilisa you are just contrary and wish to disagree for the sake of disagreement. Nothing wrong with that except when you do it without any basis or fact, you look foolish as you have here.

[ML]

If Ochka's family had private land, they were either in the party, or were in a village where the head of the collective farm defied party orders.  That was dangerous, given the informant system, but, as in most villages, almost everyone is somehow related, maybe it worked.

They were not in 'the party' and hated the system very much.  It must have been your latter option where orders were defied.

But, as I noted above, I was surprised to hear of this private ownership. 

I know her grandparents and parents were (are) highly respected in the community because of their excellent science/technical skills employed at the state owned food processing plants, now privatized.

[Boethius]

In the 1960's, in Ukraine, the party leader, Petro Shelest, was advocating for more republic independence.  That could've played a role as well, particularly in regions near Kyiv.  The collective farmers in that region had huge homes in the 1980's, from supplying the city with produce. 


Shelest made some public statements that went a bit far around 1972, and was soon "retired" by Brezhnev.  This was followed by a crackdown and show trials across Ukraine.

[Vasilisa]

Olga, you keep laughing at  the moral values I have, laugh at my loving my country saying there's nothing there to love, post disgusting things of the places I love and say I believe propaganda, etc.

I have a question for you concerning propaganda.

In the pictures you post you look way older than me, seem to be educated and and I'd say you were a member of Komsomol, and one of the major function of Komsomol was Soviet propaganda and work with younger generations tutoring them and  telling them how great Communism is. I understand you probably had no choice following the line of least resintance, I just have a question: when you were giving your communist vows and speeches did you really believe in the  great future of Communism or just did that for career purposes?

[Boethius]

Vasilisa, a lot of people joined the Komsomol almost forcibly.  In parts of Western Ukraine, to even go to night school, you had to join the Komsomol.  One of my husband's friends, who didn't want to join, was dragged in through a recruitment drive.  He couldn't think of an excuse fast enough to avoid joining.  My husband, when approached on a membership drive, used to say he "did not feel ready or worthy, and was still studying Marxism-Leninism, in order to be ready to join".  He would not have been allowed to join the party, in any event, as he was not part of the working class.   That said, yes, there were Komsomol members who enjoyed informing on others, who enjoyed standing outside churches and asking people where they worked, or forcing men to get haircuts, or attacking those on the streets for how they were dressed.

So, I don't think Komsomol membership, in and of itself, is something to be judged.  Most indivduals do not have the strength to become outcasts in their own society.  Taking it to the level of destroyings others' lives, though, which many did with pleasure, is a totally different thing. 

Two things I find amusing are how yesterday's devoted Marxist-Leninists are now "respected businessmen/women" devoted to the most ruthless capitalism, or ultra nationalists, and how many of these devoted commies actively sought to marry decadent Westerners, as well as the clueless Westerners who view such spouses with admiration, not fully realizing what and who they were.

[Ooooops]

Vasilisa, a lot of people joined the Komsomol almost forcibly.

There was no "almost" back when I was growing up - you are of age, you become first "oktyabrenok", then "pioner", then "komsomoletz".   Vasilisa is from different generation, being something like 15 years younger, and it's easy for her to judge.   

[Boethius]

In Ukraine, you didn't have to join the Komsomol unless you wanted to go to any form of higher education, although in Kyiv, there were two colleges that accepted 3 or 4 students who were not Komsomol members. 

In Western Ukraine, which was under the direct control of Moscow, if you wanted to go to any form of schooling - any - after the equivalent of high school, you had to join.

[Vasilisa]

There was no "almost" back when I was growing up - you are of age, you become first "oktyabrenok", then "pioner", then "komsomoletz".   Vasilisa is from different generation, being something like 15 years younger, and it's easy for her to judge.   

No, I am not jugding at all, it's interesting to see how people change their values so easily and in the modern world vows, promises, responsibility in all fields mean nothing.

I have friends of different age and they told me that all career oriented people and excellent students wanted to join Komsomol, moreover, you were supposed to be an excellent student, not to smoke, etc to join it...

In another forum where RP living in the US exchange their memories about their life in the Soviet Union the loudest ones screaming about how terrible the USSR was are the people that confess that long time ago, in the USSR they were the most talented speakers/leaders of the pioneer organization and comsomol,  and how great that was to travel everywhere for free , the only work you had was giving amazing  communist speeches from the tribunes, and that if the USSR hadn't fallen apart they would have made   amazing careers and would have joined the Communist party, but alas, now they are US managers or something
I also remember Olga told she was voting for Putin...

All this reminds me of Dr Zhivago....

[Ooooops]

In another forum where RP living in the US exchange their memories about their life in the Soviet Union ...

I think I've read that thread.   


The thing about USSR is that it was rotting for a long time and lots of people grew up extreme skeptics (myself included) and didn't take any of that propaganda stuff seriously.   

[Boethius]

They didn't believe at all.  Not even the "true believers".  Otherwise, they could not have become who they have, overnight.

[Ooooops]

They didn't believe at all.  Not even the "true believers".  Otherwise, they could not have become who they have, overnight.

Yeah, transition was mind blowing - yesterdays' Communist leaders flocking into churches at the first ranks...       Such hypocrites...

[Boethius]

My husband comes from aristocracy.  Scholars who founded the Russian Academy of Science, world famous historians, military men whose portraits are in the 1812 War Gallery at the Hermitage and one who was instrumental in founding the Baltic Fleet, diplomats, owners of some very famous estates, etc.  You would know the family surname, and recognize the estates, if I posted them. Most of the family was executed in St. Petersburg, some fled to the West, and a few escaped within the former Tsarist Empire, to only be discovered later.  So, higher education was closed to my better half.  However, he has one relative, on the other side of the family, who married a well connected commie.  The husband used to call hubby, as a child and a teen, a fag, told him he was a "rotten element", said he should be shot along with the rest of the family, it is unfortunate he and the other side of the family aren't dead, etc.

When hubby married me, it was at a time such marriages were practically unheard of and difficult.  About six months after our marriage, the relative phones him, and tells him he has ruined the lives of her children, her grandchildren, and her great grandchildren, and it would be better if he were dead.  He didn't care, he'd been an outcast since childhood, so he said yeah yeah, okay, hung up, and went to work.

After the failed coup, knowing he would finally be leaving, the relative's husband offered a sort of "olive branch" through another relative, who came and told my husband "We're all family, we should forgive and forget the past, we hope to see you sometime, blah, blah, blah."  This was because his children were already stealing properties, and he was hedging his bets, in case the regime changed again.  They wanted access to the West.  Hubby's response was, "Ask him how deep he buried his party card."
 
Years go by.  Through their high commie connections, that family steals millions from the people, buys clinics in the Crimea (now confiscated by the Ukrainian government), and throughout, tries various means to obtain our address, which hubby told his mother to give to no one.  He would not have helped them launder stolen money anyway, even if he were communicating with them (though any letter would have gone straight into the garbage).  He always resented the rampant thievery of Soviet citizens.  Point is, they have zero shame in approaching him.   And, that is the mindset of most devotees.  These devoted commies also baptized their grandchildren as teens.  Hubby said  "If I'd told them when we married that they'd be baptizing their children, they would have reported me."
 
 

[Ooooops]

Quite a story, Bo... 


When did you two get married if it's not a secret?   

[Boethius]

Before so called "perestroika".  We have been together over 30 years, I was a teen when I met him.

[OlgaH]

Olga, you keep laughing at  the moral values I have, laugh at my loving my country saying there's nothing there to love, post disgusting things of the places I love and say I believe propaganda, etc.

I have a question for you concerning propaganda.

In the pictures you post you look way older than me, seem to be educated and and I'd say you were a member of Komsomol, and one of the major function of Komsomol was Soviet propaganda and work with younger generations tutoring them and  telling them how great Communism is. I understand you probably had no choice following the line of least resintance, I just have a question: when you were giving your communist vows and speeches did you really believe in the  great future of Communism or just did that for career purposes?

Vasilisa, your perception of my posts is only your own perception based on your own ability and limitation to understand and supported by your own imagination as a consequence of your ability. But it is not something uncommon among some Russians "united by Putin" who have no idea how much taxes they pay in Russia, and being in the state of euphoria from the Putin's polices and promises, his "Potemkin villages" of buildings and roads, raised wages and pensions during the inflation, the laws that suffocate human rights and development of business in Russia, they simply have no clue how much it cost to Russia.

Yes, Vasilisa, I grew up during the Soviet polices and I can clearly see how they are coming back with the Putin's regime.  ... yeah,  and the people of the Republic of Tatarstan have to choose their president only among the candidates approved by the President of the Russian Federation. Enough said. If you can not apprehend these facts... sorry there is an old saying: "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink"

Anyway thank you for the entertainment you provide with your "умозаключениями"   

I also remember Olga told she was voting for Putin...

right here, but my post went over your head 

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16136.msg335918#msg335918