Syria, America and Putin's Bluff

[cc3]

 


You are far more optimistic than I am Daveman. With the latest news about Somali-Americans being involved in Kenya's mall siege/terrorism, I think our officials are keeping things a bit more discreet and likely witholding intel about what is actually existing within our midst today. 86,000 Somalis in MN alone, plus whatever else Islamic-faith based immigrants we have living with us...I won't be too shocked to see funky things happening to us here and there from now on.

The Boston bombing alone, of which I'm not too convinced they're charging the actual persons who committed that crime, should give rise to that fact.

It's very little wonder Obama couldn't give up Big Brother too easily...

We need to get the heck out of the UN soon and let the world figure itself out. We are ever so slowly bringing the ME way beyond just our doorsteps anymore.

The handwriting was on the wall when, it was reported years ago, I believe in the Clinton administration, that muslim Somali immigrant taxi drivers, at the Minneapolis International Airport,were refusing to transport international arrival airline passengers with bags of duty free liquor. From that, relatively minor, indicator, to American Somali immigrant/citizens traveling to Kenya to murder innocent men, women, and children for the transgression of not being muslim...this is where liberal, out-of-control political correctness and acceptance of immigrant islamic practice has led us westerners.

We may not wake up in the US until even more blood, than the fanatic in Ft. Hood caused to flow, is awash in American cities and towns. It will be horrific, as American patience and acceptance transform into vengeance forays versus islamic population centers. Maybe that's why Homeland Security is stocking up on so much ammo and weapons. The feds might already be anticipating the mass backlash and they are planning to defend the islamic immigrant  communities. Great visual...American DHS agents battling vengeful masses of American citizens to protect hostile alien races and cultures within our own borders.

[calmissile]

Daveman......
Very informative videos you posted.  Thanks for posting them.

[Ade]

Yeah, I used to believe this as well, but the more I studied Islam, studied immigration numbers in USA and (especially) Europe, studied how Islam spread through the middle east -- the more I realized that the hope that this will simply go away or dwindle is just a western fantasy.  It may happen in time (at least a couple centuries), but I don't see it happening anytime soon or sans some major bloody confrontations on the home fronts of Europe and N. America. I predict situations will become rather nasty in parts of Europe within thirty years. 


I agree, Christianity doesn't have a pristine history -- the difference being that at this point on the timeline, their "kill the heretics" days are currently behind them while "kill the infidels" is well entrenched an, unfortunately, on the rise.

Dave, if it were as you say, with 1.6 billion Muslims (in Dave speak aka, covert Islamic terrorists bent on world domination) worldwide, I would have thought the war would be lost already.


Personally, I think that one major religion is much the same as any other in the west so which one dominates the Sunday services is neither here nor there as far as I'm concerned. As long as the fundys of any and all religions remain a minority things will tootle along just as they always have. Eventually, the less civilized parts of the world will become more civilized and the majority will realize how nice it would be not to have wack-a-doodle nutters dictating what they can and cannot do. Of course, it would always be nice not to have any religion impacting on anyone's way of life but, people being people, religion is just an excuse, and if it wasn't that it would be something else - communism, fascism, Maoism, racism and probably a bunch of other isms anyone? 

[Shadow]

She's Ukrainian.  Udachi

And you think that matters? Guess you are as gullible as you seem.

[Ade]

As for hatred and fear of Islam, you reap what you sow. By non-accepting them as equals, by mocking their principles and by clearly labeling them as possible murderers you drive them out of your society. As a result, they become vulnerable for those who point out these things and put propaganda in to the brain of the muslims that they are victimised. In the end it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

From the eye of the Muslim world, the American Christians are not doing so well on peace either.

And by the way, the Soviet and Chinese atheists have shown that they are not the solution as well. Perhaps it has nothing to do with your life vision, but all with having no respect for others and being power hungry ?

This. ^


The answer is immigration, integration, acceptance, and tolerance. It can take several generations for immigrant families to fully assimilate but eventually the vast majority do and, in doing so, extremist views tend to become diluted. But only if they aren't faced with constant bigotry, racism, hatred and hypocrisy; those only serve to strengthen fanatical views and produce further generations of terrorists.

[Faux Pas]

This. ^


The answer is immigration, integration, acceptance, and tolerance. It can take several generations for immigrant families to fully assimilate but eventually the vast majority do and, in doing so, extremist views tend to become diluted. But only if they aren't faced with constant bigotry, racism, hatred and hypocrisy; those only serve to strengthen fanatical views and produce further generations of terrorists.

Wow Ade. Just Wow. A good place for you to practice your solution to world peace right now would be in Syria. Maybe Iran or anywhere in the Middle East. Living with Muslim extremist for several generations will leave nothing but Muslim extremists. Are you not paying attention to what they are doing right now? Why not go invite 100 or so of those Hezbollah, Al Quada, Taliban and Muslim Brotherhoods into your neighborhood? You can all sit around the campfire singing Kumbaya and you can share your vision for world peace.

You seem to be missing the whole point. It has nothing to do with bigotry, racism, hatred or hypocrisy. It's the savage religion they practice mired in 7th century beliefs, being ordered by Allah to kill or subjugate all non-believers, that means you. Not just you, they will kill all other Muslims who do not follow in strict accordance. As witnessed daily for the last decade or so, those peaceful Muslims when called upon, are not so peaceful.

[lordtiberius]

Wow Ade. Just Wow. A good place for you to practice your solution to world peace right now would be in Syria. Maybe Iran or anywhere in the Middle East. Living with Muslim extremist for several generations will leave nothing but Muslim extremists. Are you not paying attention to what they are doing right now? Why not go invite 100 or so of those Hezbollah, Al Quada, Taliban and Muslim Brotherhoods into your neighborhood? You can all sit around the campfire singing Kumbaya and you can share your vision for world peace.

You seem to be missing the whole point. It has nothing to do with bigotry, racism, hatred or hypocrisy. It's the savage religion they practice mired in 7th century beliefs, being ordered by Allah to kill or subjugate all non-believers, that means you. Not just you, they will kill all other Muslims who do not follow in strict accordance. As witnessed daily for the last decade or so, those peaceful Muslims when called upon, are not so peaceful.

Agree.

Europe is slowly being conquered because they do not want to integrate, assimilate or tolerate other ideas. 

[Daveman]

Dave, if it were as you say, with 1.6 billion Muslims (in Dave speak aka, covert Islamic terrorists bent on world domination) worldwide, I would have thought the war would be lost already.

Are those 1.6 billion distributed equally worldwide?  How does the distribution today differ from that fifty years ago?  Rhetorical questions of course.

Personally, I think that one major religion is much the same as any other in the west so which one dominates the Sunday services is neither here nor there as far as I'm concerned. As long as the fundys of any and all religions remain a minority things will tootle along just as they always have. Eventually, the less civilized parts of the world will become more civilized and the majority will realize how nice it would be not to have wack-a-doodle nutters dictating what they can and cannot do. Of course, it would always be nice not to have any religion impacting on anyone's way of life but, people being people, religion is just an excuse, and if it wasn't that it would be something else - communism, fascism, Maoism, racism and probably a bunch of other isms anyone? 

While I don't really disagree about religion(s) in general terms, I do think there are several trees blocking the view of the forest there.  Let's take just this one:


"...the majority will realize how nice it would be not to have wack-a-doodle nutters dictating what they can and cannot do."


Well, the wack-a-doodle nutters (and we certainly agree there) are already dictating policy to westerners.  Londonistan and Parislabhad are clear examples of that.  It is not the *right* of immigrants to have the home country adapt to their culture or religious based laws. Any responsibility for adaptation resides with the immigrant.

Freedom of (or from) religion may be important.
Freedom of speech, which includes the inalienable right to criticize, is absolutely paramount.  That is being whittled away.

[Shadow]

You seem to be missing the whole point. It has nothing to do with bigotry, racism, hatred or hypocrisy. It's the savage religion they practice mired in 7th century beliefs, being ordered by Allah to kill or subjugate all non-believers, that means you. Not just you, they will kill all other Muslims who do not follow in strict accordance. As witnessed daily for the last decade or so, those peaceful Muslims when called upon, are not so peaceful.

The same texts are in the Bible. Do you see Christians running around killing non-believers today ?

[Shadow]

Agree.

Europe is slowly being conquered because they do not want to integrate, assimilate or tolerate other ideas.

Europe is far from being conquered, they are no more being conquered by Muslims as the USA is being conquered by Mexicans.
The issue is that those who emigrate to another country are often the people who do not have a lot of options at home due to low education and little or no money. These are people who cling more strongly to religion and own culture as those who are having a good job and experience Western standards at home.
If you go to the West and South of Turkey, or the North of Morocco you will see people who dress and behave just like any European, even if their religion is Muslim. They are no more strict as Muslim as Americans and Europeans are as Christians.
By casting out the people in our European countries instead of letting them integrate, we deny them the chance to obtain a similar attitude. Instead they seek a refuge, a group they can belong to. And that makes them vulnerable for extremist propaganda.
All is not lost. Looking back a number of years the immigrants from Indonesia and Surinam in the Netherlands had similar problems, with similar violence happening. Right now they are fully integrated and no longer seen as immigrant. In fact the leader of the right-wing Party for Freedom (PVV) Geert Wilders is of Indonesian descent.

[GQBlues]

The same texts are in the Bible. Do you see Christians running around killing non-believers today ?

Unfortunately, quite a bit and worldwide Shadow....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism

The basic tenet and foundations of the 3 major religious faith (christianity, Judaism, Islam) are shrouded in blood. Salvation through apocalyptic, murderous triumph. Antisemetism is still fairly prevalent in your side of the pond, much as some Christian wing nuts are in the US, Aryan Brotherhood,etc...

[Daveman]

The same texts are in the Bible. Do you see Christians running around killing non-believers today ?

I don't recall Christ ever advocating the slaughter of non-believers (except that he will personally handle non believers at the end time, but that's a different discussion).  No doubt that it occurred, but it wasn't a scriptural teaching of which I am aware.


Since Christians are not running around killing non-believers today, we should tolerate Muslim behavior because one day they may come to their senses?

[Shadow]

I don't recall Christ ever advocating the slaughter of non-believers (except that he will personally handle non believers at the end time, but that's a different discussion).  No doubt that it occurred, but it wasn't a scriptural teaching of which I am aware.


Since Christians are not running around killing non-believers today, we should tolerate Muslim behavior because one day they may come to their senses?

The Bible does not only containt the New Testament, but also the Old Testament which is almost equal to a large part of the Quran.
It has the same passages about killing those who do not believe and about how slavery is ok.

What we should not do is consider all Muslims as barbaric pedophiles, and give them a chance to rid themselves of the bad apples. Supporting Assad would be a good start there.

[GQBlues]

What is so easily overlooked in our global religious/political climate today is the sheer fact, both the Middle-east and the African continent are 2 large, natural resource rich regions yet houses the poorest of inhabitants. How does that happen? had anyone bothered to ask?

You think this can happen to the US, Canada, France? Having everyone else in the world today 'profit' from their resources while their inhabitants and citizens scrape by with their daily lives?

It is the western armies who set up puppet governments, intervene within their politics and lives...

The western hemispheres are undoubtedly reaping and raping these regions of their worth - AND - maintain to tell them what to do and how to live their lives. If that isn't enough, we send our armies in there to get it done.

Yet, WE call them 'radicals and extremists'.

Imagine for a minute if the western hemisphere dictates the same ideology to Russia while making sure we 'control' their oil and reserves. We can't. Because Russia is more than capable of fighting back. ME or Africa cannot.

So we continue to rape them while maintaining to label them 'radicals'. Funny world, ain't it?

Again. The US need to get the fcuk out of the UN, tear-up the Charter and let the world figure itself out.

[Muzh]

Of course, it would always be nice not to have any religion impacting on anyone's way of life but, people being people, religion is just an excuse, and if it wasn't that it would be something else - communism, fascism, Maoism, racism and probably a bunch of other isms anyone?

Actually, I believe that under communism in the former Soyuz, superstition (paganism) sort of replaced much of Russian Orthodoxy.

Now, this is MVHO, humans will embrace anything ethereal when lacking facts. That's our nature.

Many Muslim moderate has advocated education to combat these Islamic extremists. One of the more famous is:

[Shadow]

What is so easily overlooked in our global religious/political climate today is the sheer fact, both the Middle-east and the African continent are 2 large, natural resource rich regions yet houses the poorest of inhabitants. How does that happen? had anyone bothered to ask?

Tribal mentality and lack of cooperation. Nothing else.

[Faux Pas]

The Bible does not only containt the New Testament, but also the Old Testament which is almost equal to a large part of the Quran.
It has the same passages about killing those who do not believe and about how slavery is ok.

This is just factually untrue shadow. The bible is not in large part the Koran or vice versa. There is some intermingled history and not much else. Do you know of any modern day christian sects that believe slavery is "okay"? Neither do I. Furthermore, I do not know of any who murder in the name of God or Jesus Christ, do you? I don't see any advocating to strap explosives to their bodies with the hope of suicide and killing as many innocents as possible.

What we should not do is consider all Muslims as barbaric pedophiles, and give them a chance to rid themselves of the bad apples. Supporting Assad would be a good start there.

As I mentioned earlier, they've had 14 centuries to rid themselves. They have zero interest in doing so and they certainly are not going to do it to appease the infidels. They have no interest in peace for the sake of peace. They do not fear death and totally embrace martyrdom. It's the mindset of the 7th century religion that flies in the face of your position. It's barbaric and savage. The Koran does not allow or permit modernization. You are to be subjugated, converted or killed. There are no other options from the Islam standpoint. It hasn't changed in 1400 years and it won't in the next 2-300 or ever how many you think it's going to take 

[Daveman]

The Bible does not only containt the New Testament, but also the Old Testament which is almost equal to a large part of the Quran.
It has the same passages about killing those who do not believe and about how slavery is ok.

There are three primary prophets in the 12in. Desert Dogma Dance mix:
Old Testament - Moses
New Testament - Jesus
Islam - Muhammad 


All have some pretty incredible eccentricities to say the least, but of the three, Muhammad clearly (IMO) wins the Violent Diety Wackadoodledoo award -- with Moses and the Children of Israel coming in not so distant second.


While obviously not always the case, Christians should be following the teachings (and example) ascribed to Jesus - who advocated neither slaughter nor persecution of any kind.  Whether he actually existed is another topic outside the theme of the thread and matters little for this discussion.

What we should not do is consider all Muslims as barbaric pedophiles, and give them a chance to rid themselves of the bad apples. Supporting Assad would be a good start there.

I don't disagree with this.  However, NOT considering some or many of them as barbaric pedophiles does not give Islam special status above criticism, status above the local non shariah laws of the countries to which they immigrated, status above reproach, nor does it give them the right to throw violent juvenile temper tantrums.  Criticize Islam and Muhammad approved violence isn't far behind.  Appeasement and capitulation is not tolerance.  It's political ass kissing.

[GQBlues]

Tribal mentality and lack of cooperation. Nothing else.

Old habits die hard. I see not much in the Euro attitude had change after all these centuries... Those darn savages! Kill 'em! Get their women and gold...

[Daveman]

What is so easily overlooked in our global religious/political climate today is the sheer fact, both the Middle-east and the African continent are 2 large, natural resource rich regions yet houses the poorest of inhabitants. How does that happen? had anyone bothered to ask?

You think this can happen to the US, Canada, France? Having everyone else in the world today 'profit' from their resources while their inhabitants and citizens scrape by with their daily lives?

It is the western armies who set up puppet governments, intervene within their politics and lives...

The western hemispheres are undoubtedly reaping and raping these regions of their worth - AND - maintain to tell them what to do and how to live their lives. If that isn't enough, we send our armies in there to get it done.

Yet, WE call them 'radicals and extremists'.

Imagine for a minute if the western hemisphere dictates the same ideology to Russia while making sure we 'control' their oil and reserves. We can't. Because Russia is more than capable of fighting back. ME or Africa cannot.

So we continue to rape them while maintaining to label them 'radicals'. Funny world, ain't it?

Again. The US need to get the fcuk out of the UN, tear-up the Charter and let the world figure itself out.

I hear ya...


If this happens, and I'm certainly not asserting that it shouldn't, the US economy will immediately spiral toward crash as the only floater it has at this point is that the US dollar is the currency of oil. That has as much to do, if not more, with our ME involvement as raping the landscape.  Rather coincidental that people (regimes) tend to die when another oil purchase standard implementation is attempted.

[SANDRO43]

This is just factually untrue shadow. The bible is not in large part the Koran or vice versa. There is some intermingled history and not much else.

Not quite, see e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_narratives_and_the_Quran#New_Testament_narratives .

Muslims claim to be descendants of Abraham like the Jews, so the Qur'an had to include something to corroborate the genealogy, and that is taken/adapted from the Torah.

[Faux Pas]

Not quite, see e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_narratives_and_the_Quran#New_Testament_narratives .

Muslims claim to be descendants of Abraham like the Jews, so the Qur'an had to include something to corroborate the genealogy, and that is taken/adapted from the Torah.

That proves nothing SANDRO.    There are 9 different religions that have a prophet described very close to Jesus including Islam in which he is a prophet. Many of these describe the birth of Jesus centuries apart.  Many of these ancient writings, books and stories through time have been used to suit the religion. Many of the ancient writings have been excluded, hidden, lost from both the Bible and the Koran according to various rulers, Kings and other religious leaders. It is said that the Catholic church has a number of the original books of the bible in the Vatican never to release them. The koran and the bible through the last 2000 years have not remained untouched or unmolested. They have at various time been manipulated to suit. The Koran and the Bible share some writings and some History.  Some might claim the same deity. The theology is close to polar opposite. Islam takes the words of the Koran literally with no variance. Christianity and long rest on the Bible figuratively.

[Ade]

Wow Ade. Just Wow. A good place for you to practice your solution to world peace right now would be in Syria. Maybe Iran or anywhere in the Middle East. Living with Muslim extremist for several generations will leave nothing but Muslim extremists. Are you not paying attention to what they are doing right now? Why not go invite 100 or so of those Hezbollah, Al Quada, Taliban and Muslim Brotherhoods into your neighborhood? You can all sit around the campfire singing Kumbaya and you can share your vision for world peace.

You seem to be missing the whole point. It has nothing to do with bigotry, racism, hatred or hypocrisy. It's the savage religion they practice mired in 7th century beliefs, being ordered by Allah to kill or subjugate all non-believers, that means you. Not just you, they will kill all other Muslims who do not follow in strict accordance. As witnessed daily for the last decade or so, those peaceful Muslims when called upon, are not so peaceful.

All of the old religions if read literally are fairly blood thirsty, intolerant and downright barbaric in parts. That a minority of Muslims take their book absolutely literally and do horrendous acts in its name isn't a guarantee that all Muslims think this way as several of you are implying in this thread. I know and know of many Muslims, the Mr & Mrs Average Muslim, that do not go around preaching Jihad and are outraged at the acts perpetrated in their religion's name - very much the same way you don't go around throwing rocks at your cheating neighbours wife and would be appalled if someone else did it especially in the name of your religion. I'm pretty sure the average Muslim doesn't look at the less appealing parts of the Bible and start thinking that all Christians are foaming mouthed fanatics either even if there are mainly Christian cultures bombing the shit out of Muslim ones on occasion.


As for the immigration thing. Cultures evolve and change when exposed to other cultures. It's what happens. It's a good thing. Britain has a (pretty barbaric one at times I'll admit) history of interacting with other, quite different, cultures and religions and it's had a positive effect IMO. But many people, usually racist, right wing, xenophobic and/or otherwise intolerant of anything different would argue with me about that.


And I'm not suggesting we invite known terrorists into our countries, far from it, but, as Shadow points out, alienating and ostracizing people from a particular culture/religion is apt to breed resentment and hate. It also doesn't help that countries like the US go meddling into other country's affairs when it shouldn't - Taliban anyone? - as fanatics will use that to reinforce their message of hate and gain support in the process.

[lordtiberius]

You cannot help but admire Putin.

The Secret American Subculture of Putin-Worshippers

The Russian president has his fans here—who see him as the very epitome of macho manliness.

http://www.nationaljournal.com/magazine/the-secret-american-subculture-of-putin-worshippers-20130919

Russia to restore Soviet-era naval base in Arctic: Putin

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/09/16/russia-to-restore-soviet-era-naval-base-in-arctic-putin/

[Faux Pas]

All of the old religions if read literally are fairly blood thirsty, intolerant and downright barbaric in parts. That a minority of Muslims take their book absolutely literally and do horrendous acts in its name isn't a guarantee that all Muslims think this way as several of you are implying in this thread. I know and know of many Muslims, the Mr & Mrs Average Muslim, that do not go around preaching Jihad and are outraged at the acts perpetrated in their religion's name - very much the same way you don't go around throwing rocks at your cheating neighbours wife and would be appalled if someone else did it especially in the name of your religion. I'm pretty sure the average Muslim doesn't look at the less appealing parts of the Bible and start thinking that all Christians are foaming mouthed fanatics either even if there are mainly Christian cultures bombing the shit out of Muslim ones on occasion.


As for the immigration thing. Cultures evolve and change when exposed to other cultures. It's what happens. It's a good thing. Britain has a (pretty barbaric one at times I'll admit) history of interacting with other, quite different, cultures and religions and it's had a positive effect IMO. But many people, usually racist, right wing, xenophobic and/or otherwise intolerant of anything different would argue with me about that.


And I'm not suggesting we invite known terrorists into our countries, far from it, but, as Shadow points out, alienating and ostracizing people from a particular culture/religion is apt to breed resentment and hate. It also doesn't help that countries like the US go meddling into other country's affairs when it shouldn't - Taliban anyone? - as fanatics will use that to reinforce their message of hate and gain support in the process.

There are at least a half dozen countries right now where the Muslims are killing Christians at an alarming rate and burning down their churches. Where are those average peace loving Mr. and Mrs. Muslims you speak of? Where is the outrage for the 2-300K Christians killed in the name of Allah in just the past year? If the extremist are so few in number how are they able to commit these type atrocities in the presence of so many average peace loving Muslims? I can tell you, they are right there encouraging, cheering and participating the so few extremists you also speak of. To not do so would be anti-Muslim and punishable by death. Your heart is in the right place here Ade, I'll concede you that. Although your connection with reality, the situation and the religion is far removed.

At the current rate of the spread of extremism, we don't have 3,4,5 generations to live with them. The non-believers will all be dead. Do not believe that the few peace loving Muslims are going to speak out against Jihad. They will join. The religion is savage and barbaric. Believers and those who practice a barbaric religion will be guess what, barbaric.

Where in the last 2-300 years have Christians been killing Muslims? Where are Christians killing Muslims now? How many must the Jihadist kill before their lust for blood is satisfied?