Syria, America and Putin's Bluff

[lordtiberius]

No, my country is not more important than God.  Do you have a country?  Do you have any loyalty or obligations to it?

[Shadow]

No, my country is not more important than God.  Do you have a country?  Do you have any loyalty or obligations to it?

I have no country, only a place I was born.

Your country is not more important than God. Yet if your country orders you to kill someone you may do so. Even if God has made a Commandment that says 'Thou shall not kill'. This means that by serving in the military your country finds a way to let you forget your own morals and put itself above God.
I know from observation that people who kill enter a different state of mind, where a human life becomes worth less and less, until no value is left. This is compensated by being given a moral code that dehumanizes the enemies, as otherwise only people with a damaged mind would kill one of their own.

For your information at the time I was young my country had obligatory military training for all men that turned 18 years of age. The training was six months, where those with higher intelligence or leadership capabilities were trained three months extra. This to ensure that every able bodied young man was prepared for war. Actual killing was not part of the program, and to be sent to a war zone (Lebanon at the time) was strictly voluntary.

What you may forget is that the traces of war are much deeper in Europe, simply because we had more of it.

[BillyB]

 
 

Thank you for your service.

Thank you.
 
 

But isn't your point moot as SoS Kerry credits his dinner date Assad with complying with UN demands?

 
It is moot. I came back to this topic to discuss whether or not all Muslims are bad. I brought up Assad because he's been a bad boy and if any Muslim needs to be spanked it's him.
 
We all talked about the big incident with chemical weapons but the UN has investigated at least 14 incidences. Seems like it's easy for guys to reach into Assad's chemical stockpile and grab a few items. Let's just hope all chemical weapons that have been taken were used on Syrians and will never found on our doorsteps.
 
 
 

BillyB do drive and owns dump trucks, I believe.

 
Half right. I don't drive dump trucks.
 
 

Yet if your country orders you to kill someone you may do so. Even if God has made a Commandment that says 'Thou shall not kill'. This means that by serving in the military your country finds a way to let you forget your own morals and put itself above God.

 
In the Bible, God has sent armies to kill people. Killing is not bad. Murdering is.
 
 
People join the military for different reasons in America because it's voluntary. Some men run from the law. Some men need a job. Some men have a sad family situation at home and running away from it all. Others just want to do something good for their country and/or fellow man. I joined the military during the first gulf war to help liberate the people of Kuwait. My dad joined during the Vietnam war. My grandfather joined during WWII and great grandfather during WWI. I'm sure most men like us join the military during a war to help out people in need, not for the right to kill, ignoring our morals and putting ourselves above God.
 

[lordtiberius]

 say what you want about BillyB.  He seems pretty cool

[Faux Pas]

We all talked about the big incident with chemical weapons but the UN has investigated at least 14 incidences. Seems like it's easy for guys to reach into Assad's chemical stockpile and grab a few items. Let's just hope all chemical weapons that have been taken were used on Syrians and will never found on our doorsteps.
 

Yeah let's just kill another 100K of them just in case the chemical weapons didn't kill enough 

[BillyB]

Yeah let's just kill another 100K of them just in case the chemical weapons didn't kill enough 

Is that the number Obama was shooting for? If I remember correctly, he was going to do limited strikes against Syria's military.
 
 
What you fail to understand is that there's already a war going on and deaths are inevitable. Ask the Libyans if they wished America and Europeans stayed out of their civil war.
 
If you care about life, you should write Obama recommending he send our military in full force to end the war in Syria in a matter of days. Because there is no outside help, Syria's war will drag on for a long time and if Assad wins, you can be sure he jails, tortures, and continue to kill his opposition. 100k+ deaths are already guaranteed without any American intervention.

[mendeleyev]

Billy, I hate to burst your bubble but what you fail to understand is what will happen were the USA to do such a misguided action.

First off, we'd now be going against the UN plan for Russia and UN to handle the chemical weapons.

Second, who do you prop up after Assad is gone? Do you back the rebel factions who are killing Christians, or do you back the rebel factions who have vowed to wage war against Israel as soon as they control Syria?

John McCain lied. There are no "good" rebels in this fight. This is Vietnam on steroids.

You are sadly wrong if you believe that the USA could end this civil war in days. Both sides have access to chemical weapons and as soon as the rebels feel threatened by outside Western sources, they'll use them again but this time against Americans.

Were we to break our agreement with the UN, Assad might feel justified in using chemical weapons, not against his people but against Western invaders.

Is Assad a good guy? Of course not. But there are no good guys on the other side either. Again, McCain and Graham lied, flat out lied. McCain is a lune and the Syrians know that he is off his rocker.

You say that 100K+ deaths are guaranteed without American intervention.

I say that perhaps double that many deaths are guaranteed WITH American intervention.

Billy, if the rebels win, they'll do what they are already doing: jailing, torture and killing those who oppose radical Islam. I hate to tell you this, but if you value life then in this case you want Assad to win.

[lordtiberius]

Much of what you said is true.  It doesn't change the fact that Assad is a deadan walking.  At least Qaddafi paid money.

[Shadow]

Is that the number Obama was shooting for? If I remember correctly, he was going to do limited strikes against Syria's military.
 
 
What you fail to understand is that there's already a war going on and deaths are inevitable. Ask the Libyans if they wished America and Europeans stayed out of their civil war.
 
If you care about life, you should write Obama recommending he send our military in full force to end the war in Syria in a matter of days. Because there is no outside help, Syria's war will drag on for a long time and if Assad wins, you can be sure he jails, tortures, and continue to kill his opposition. 100k+ deaths are already guaranteed without any American intervention.

A lot of Libyans wanted America and Europe to stay the hell out of their country, and looking at the current situation there they were right.

Look at what last year's uprising has brought. Tunisia is still a dictatorship, just things have quieted down. Libya is in total chaos, bandit gangs roam the streets and recently even kidnapped the prime minister. Egypt is not doing a lot better, at least the military never lost complete control there. And Syria is still in the news as the operations so far failed. Guess what? Lebanon is now starting to fall back in to civil war.

Guess the job Obama did there is as good as what he did at home.

[Faux Pas]

Is that the number Obama was shooting for? If I remember correctly, he was going to do limited strikes against Syria's military.
 
 
What you fail to understand is that there's already a war going on and deaths are inevitable. Ask the Libyans if they wished America and Europeans stayed out of their civil war.

Limited strikes can not be justified in any manner, is bullshite and only a precursor to an all out boots on the ground war. As was the case with Afghanistan and Iraq, if you break it, you fix it. America has no dog in the fight in Syria. It's not ours to fix and we certainly have no gain by contributing to the carnage that is going on there now.

It's not "okay" to justify war and murder as the greater good. 100-200K are already going to die so we can kill another 50K is warped logic.

I don't give a fat rats ass what the Libyans think. We didn't have any business there either. Foreign involvement didn't save any lives in Libya. The Iranians however, are very thankful for all of the U.S. contributions
 

If you care about life, you should write Obama recommending he send our military in full force to end the war in Syria in a matter of days. Because there is no outside help, Syria's war will drag on for a long time and if Assad wins, you can be sure he jails, tortures, and continue to kill his opposition. 100k+ deaths are already guaranteed without any American intervention.

No Billy, if you cared anything about the lives of American soldiers, dropped your bullshit macho bravado and thought first before opening your mouth, you wouldn't come off as such a fool. Syria, Libya, Egypt and all of the Arab Spring uprising is not our business. You just think it is because you let the propaganda do your thinking for you

[lordtiberius]

So much for respecting others.

[Faux Pas]

So much for respecting others.

Have you anything at all of substance to add to the discussion or are we to assume all you have is to sit sideline and ankle bite?

[lordtiberius]

apologize to BillyB

[Faux Pas]

apologize to BillyB

Anything at all?

[lordtiberius]

Anything at all?

meh

[CanadaMan]

Limited strikes can not be justified in any manner, is bullshite and only a precursor to an all out boots on the ground war. As was the case with Afghanistan and Iraq, if you break it, you fix it. America has no dog in the fight in Syria. It's not ours to fix and we certainly have no gain by contributing to the carnage that is going on there now.

It's not "okay" to justify war and murder as the greater good. 100-200K are already going to die so we can kill another 50K is warped logic.

I don't give a fat rats ass what the Libyans think. We didn't have any business there either. Foreign involvement didn't save any lives in Libya.
 

+1

[BillyB]

 

who do you prop up after Assad is gone?

 
Considering the good guys don't want to be there and have a say in this, there will definitely be a bad guy running the show if Assad is gone.
 
 

Both sides have access to chemical weapons and as soon as the rebels feel threatened by outside Western sources, they'll use them again but this time against Americans.

 
Those guys Assad and Al Queda, etc...  have already been threatened by America. I guess they'll be sending chemical weapons our way when they finish with each other?
 
 

John McCain lied. There are no "good" rebels in this fight.

 
He didn't lie. There are good people in Syria that want to join the civil war to get out from under Assad. If  good people, who are good Christians, from good western nations don't want to be a part of the team the good Syrians can join, don't get upset if they join Al Queda and Muslim extremists and label them all bad.
 
 
 

I hate to tell you this, but if you value life then in this case you want Assad to win.

 
Your Christian. Would God want a bad guy to win? Is he all for the acceptance of "Lessor of two evils?" There are plenty of bad guys to take over Syria but if we want a good guy in there, good guys need to participate.
 
 

America has no dog in the fight in Syria. It's not ours to fix and we certainly have no gain by contributing to the carnage that is going on there now.

Some Americans protested America's participation in WWI and WWII too. They said we have no business in Europe's problems. I'm sure some French protested the help France gave the American colonists to fight against the British Empire. There belief is they have no business in somebody else's problems.
 
History has taught us that if we don't get involved somebody else will and change the course of history. After WWII America learned that lesson when Communism was spreading fast. If you don't help good people, your friends, in the end you will have no friends.
 
We have not business in there? If Assad gets replaced by a nut who invades Israel, the business will come to us.
 

A lot of Libyans wanted America and Europe to stay the hell out of their country,

 
They didn't seem to protest and shoot down our planes when we bombed them a trail to Tripoli.
 
 

Look at what last year's uprising has brought. Tunisia is still a dictatorship, just things have quieted down. Libya is in total chaos, bandit gangs roam the streets and recently even kidnapped the prime minister. Egypt is not doing a lot better, at least the military never lost complete control there. And Syria is still in the news as the operations so far failed. Guess what? Lebanon is now starting to fall back in to civil war.

America's birth wasn't so smooth either. After the British left, states were arguing their rights and couldn't agree which direction the nation should go. Fortunately we had Ben Franklin to bring everyone together.
 
Arabs knew they didn't like their leadership and rebelled. They may not vote for the right guy the first time but they do want something better. They may hit a few bumps in the road before voting the right guy into power.
 
 

I don't give a fat rats ass what the Libyans think.

You seem to care about everyone's life, you should care how they think. Fortunately our government cares and takes action.
 
It doesn't matter if it were a Republican or Democrat in the White House, they would participate in Libya's civil war because of the oil there which affects our prices and economy at home. They would participate in limited fashion in Syria due to the chemical weapons use.
 
 

Syria, Libya, Egypt and all of the Arab Spring uprising is not our business.

 
When those events are the business of Al Qaeda and other extremists groups, it is our business. You may feel safe and comfy in your home and feel nothing more is necessary but someone else provided the environment for you to live in by keeping the bad boys that exist now and in history at check.

[Shadow]

BillyB, Al Qaeda is on your side in the fight against Assad. Hope you are happy with that.I am sure you are aware they were also on your side in Libya,
Yes the rebels funded by Your money and action hero doctrine cheered, but did the people who lived in Tripoli? I doubt it.
It is of course much better to be raided and raped by bandits in freedom as to live a stable and happy life with a leader that does not have the favour of the mighty US.
As for the start of America, 1776 is a long time ago. Guess what happened then is stil measure for some people,
People in every country should have the right to determine who leads them. That right should not be restricted by if the leader or the system is seen as favourable by some super power.
I winder when the Arab Spring will reach Saudi-Arabia, as the system there is needing democratizations. Will you listen to those asking the US to interfere in drive out the rich Royals?

[TomT]

BillyB, Al Qaeda is on your side in the fight against Assad. Hope you are happy with that.I am sure you are aware they were also on your side in Libya,
Yes the rebels funded by Your money and action hero doctrine cheered, but did the people who lived in Tripoli? I doubt it.
It is of course much better to be raided and raped by bandits in freedom as to live a stable and happy life with a leader that does not have the favour of the mighty US.
As for the start of America, 1776 is a long time ago. Guess what happened then is stil measure for some people,
People in every country should have the right to determine who leads them. That right should not be restricted by if the leader or the system is seen as favourable by some super power.
I winder when the Arab Spring will reach Saudi-Arabia, as the system there is needing democratizations. Will you listen to those asking the US to interfere in drive out the rich Royals?

The same cement-heads who lack the intellect to make the connection between our intervention in Libya, the rise of the Islamists and the Benghazi incident are now supporters of Libya Part Deux... and they consider themselves to be sharp. You might as well be having a conversation with monkeys.

[Shadow]

The same cement-heads who lack the intellect to make the connection between our intervention in Libya, the rise of the Islamists and the Benghazi incident are now supporters of Libya Part Deux... and they consider themselves to be sharp. You might as well be having a conversation with monkeys.

The most funny thing is that those people will mostly be talking about the communist Soviet Union, while not realizing that to many people across the world their behaviour reminds of that same ideology. The Mother Land is always right and should teach every country around the world to stand together against evil, to stand united saluting your flag is holy. And do not worry about the mess in your own back yard or out of control debt. The Mother land will provide.

[mendeleyev]

Billy, McCain did lie and he continues to do so. There are no rebel groups in Syria who have the ability or desire to join with Western forces and defeat Assad and then stabliize the region while living at peace with their neighbors including Israel.

McCain is senile and Syrians in the USA who fled from there have told him as much but he thinks that he knows better than those Syrians. McCain is a former patriot, a former hero but these days he is a blathering old fool who is long overdue retirement.

There are no clear winners and the sad fact is that the minority Christian population, people who have lived there for centuries, in peace with their Islamic rulers, are now being slaughtered by rebels armed by the current US administration. It is not so much that I want to see Assad win, but the much bigger question is what gets unleashed in an even larger civil war and fight for control after he falls.

[Shadow]

The news of today was that a number of "Dutch" youngsters who have gone to Syria to support the "jihad" against the "infidel" Assad are stuck in Syria. The rebels for whom they fought have confiscated their passports, meaning they have no way to leave the country.

Mostly they are youngsters of foreign origin, who have been brainwashed by their Iman's in order to go there.

BillyB these are the kind of people you support. Perhaps you can ask your congressman for help in releasing them?

[BillyB]

 

Billy, McCain did lie and he continues to do so. There are no rebel groups in Syria who have the ability or desire to join with Western forces and defeat Assad and then stabliize the region while living at peace with their neighbors including Israel.

 
Did a google search for good rebels and John Kerry says the same thing McCain does. They both get access to the same intelligence from our guys on the ground over there and they both feel there are people America can work with so we at least supply them weapons and training.
 
 

the minority Christian population, people who have lived there for centuries, in peace with their Islamic rulers, are now being slaughtered by rebels armed by the current US administration.

 
War is not pretty. I'm sure every time America went to war, we had soldiers rape and murder civilians. Hopefully there will be accountability for war crimes in Syria.
 
 

The news of today was that a number of "Dutch" youngsters who have gone to Syria to support the "jihad" against the "infidel" Assad are stuck in Syria. The rebels for whom they fought have confiscated their passports, meaning they have no way to leave the country.

 
Those men entering Syria illegally didn't need their passports. They don't need their passports to get out the same way they got in.
 
 

BillyB these are the kind of people you support. Perhaps you can ask your congressman for help in releasing them?

 
Don't need to ask anybody to release them. If you join an army in the middle of war, you're not getting out until it's finished. I knew guys in the American army days away of retiring only to be told a war just started and they're not leaving just yet.

[mendeleyev]

Did a google search for good rebels and John Kerry says the same thing McCain does. They both get access to the same intelligence from our guys on the ground over there and they both feel there are people America can work with so we at least supply them weapons and training.

John Kerry? As in SOS John Kerry?

Now there is a great reference. Not.

Kerry can't tell the difference between the old KGB prison in Moscow and a WWII Nazi death camp in Poland (I'm not kidding) and one of his first press conferences as SOS listed a former Soviet Republic that has never existed as a country.

In August of this year at a press conference Kerry used a BBC photograph that supposedly showed lines of bodies in white sheets. Kerry pointed to the photo and said the absence of blood proved that the deaths were caused by chemical weapons.

There was only one problem with his evidence: The BBC called and informed the State Department that the particular photograph was from Iraq in 2003. 2003 Billy, not even from Syria.

Kerry, and I say this in all kindness and am putting it mildly, is a flipping idiot.

http://en.paperblog.com/new-us-secretary-of-state-kerry-is-an-idiot-no-surprise-here-447499/

http://en.paperblog.com/us-secretary-of-state-kerry-meets-with-russian-president-putin-in-moscow-522049/

[TomT]

You should quit before he starts citing Sarah Palin.