English Speaking FSUW Versus Non-English Speaking FSUW

[jb]

jb, (small letters I remember)

If you remember that, I'd be curious about what name you posted under on the RWG.  Care to reveal?

[Killer-B]

I was married to a gal who spoke perfect English. Still we couldn't communicate.

I just personally believe the motivations and characteristics of the two people are more important than (JUST) linguistic ability.

... He is tired of the BS from American woman and he wants more than anything to make (for) a happy life with her...

Just My .02 Cents...

To steal a thought from Bruno earlier on here.. "Black, White, and Gray..." - OK, Let's talk "gray"...

In the 2 pages of posts and missives here, I'm really surprised no one has addressed what (I view) is the "obvious" yet? (and yes, there are MANY components to "making it ALL work) - But the topic raised is "English ability"... And so the dance continues..

I snipped some of Turbo's comments (above), for to me, these are Spot On -

If you were to poll every single American Women - What would 90%+ say is "wrong" with either their "man" and/or their "relationship"? Anyone? "Communication" guys.... -HOWEVER- Since it's FACT that "communication" is ONLY 7% "Verbal" and 93% NON-Verbal.... (i.e. body language, "looks", reactions, etc.) one could argue that "Language" (English or any other) is really only 7% "relevant"... But like Viking said, (I think?) I too am an extrovert, and pretty well spoken - and I NEED to have challenging "conversation" - But that's just ME and what I seek -

That aside, I SEEK OUT women who have limited English skills - Why? Because it FORCES you to *listen* to EACH and EVERY word SHE says - as well as what YOU say to her....

So?

Well, if any of you all have any counseling experience - You know that "repeating what you hear" back to the person who said it to you - is quite a usefull and productive method of "communicating" - For it assures the "speaker" that what they've (truly) said has been "heard"...

I have several married friends (to RW) and if they truly "care" about what their RW is saying... they then are forced to listen to her every word so he can better understand what it is she truly is needing - He can then better assist the woman he's fallen in love with - And enable him to be "the man" in the relationship she wants and provide for her and his family....

Make some sense?

Cheers -

Dr. Phil LOL 

[BC]

I know I'm gonna get a load of sh!t for saying this but:

Simple thoughts for simple minds..

I remember a guy I knew in Germany that brought over a MOB from the Dominican Republic.. another case of no common language.

She constantly had her dictionary with her and at the bar I leafed through it.

One of the few words underlined in this dictionary was gynecoligist

I dunno..  for me there has to be more depth to a marriage than this..

[BC]

-HOWEVER- Since it's FACT that "communication" is ONLY 7% "Verbal" and 93% NON-Verbal.... (i.e. body language, "looks", reactions, etc.) one could argue that "Language" (English or any other) is really only 7% "relevant"...

Killer.. If indeed fact this statement applies to those sharing a common language.  Keyword: peers..  apples and oranges..

[Killer-B]

BC-

I fully understand your point... and to a (7%) degree, agree...

However, having lived & worked in France, Belgium, Hong Kong (as well as a few "English" speaking countries - NZ/AUS/UK) - I'd have to disagree that it's not apples and oranges... I can "say" more with my eyes or a "look" than any word to a person that doesn't speak MUCH English...

I chuckled at the Gyno comment - One can only imagine what was going through that young gals mind LOL -  ???

I did not "totally" dismiss the need for a "common language" - You can make it as dry and bland as you wish - Or "spice it up" by being creative...

In "the real world" (husband, wife, kids, job etc...) No argument that it's a MUCH easier road if you share a common language and "understanding"... But these things are just "words" - She may "hear you" - But does she truly understand? [Read as: "Communicating"] - You may get apple juice (sok!) when you really wanted orange LOL...

Cheers-

[jb]

-HOWEVER- Since it's FACT that "communication" is ONLY 7% "Verbal" and 93% NON-Verbal.... (i.e. body language, "looks", reactions, etc.) one could argue that "Language" (English or any other) is really only 7% "relevant"...

Where did this FACT come from?  Please site the source, just to help us poor dumb a-holes out.  Because it sure isn't my experience in any relationship, either working, friendship, romantic, or otherwise, I've ever had. 

[Turboguy]

First off jb, I understand exactly what a frac job is.   I used to be involved as a sales rep for a company down in McCallen that made frac tanks.  Up till then you are right, I would not have.  No, we didn't have a market for the frac tanks but one of my fun things was showing people the brocures on the frac tanks and seeing if they could figure out what it was.

I don't mean to repeat myself but I have had great communications with people who barely knew a word of English and could not relate to some people who were quite fluent.  I can remember my only trip to Belarus the dad of the gal I visited did not know a word of English and we would sit and communicate for hours without a dictionary and stayed friends for 6 or 7 years after.  

Do I think it is a not a big deal not having a common language.  I actually think it depends on the people.  I think there are people who would find it a major obstacle and those who would find it a fascinating challenge.   I don't mean this in a negative way but I think you and bc probably would have some difficulties with it as would anono for different reasons.   I think Ken from Virginia and his wife would have done just as well if she had not known English.  I think Voyager and Vaughn and a lot of others could have done it.  I think Photo guy could have with the right gal.  I think if I had the right gal I could do it without skipping a beat.  I think Clyde did do it and I don't think the language barrier was a hindrance.  I am not meaning this as a negative comment about anyone or saying that anyone is better than anyone else.  I am saying that someone with a laid back easy going temperament who has a lot of patience or someone who really wants to make things work will not let it stop them.  Someone with more of a type "A" personality as Anono used to brag about might find it a big obstacle.  Perhaps I am all wet on this.  It is just my opinion.  I am not saying I can never be wrong.  I just think if is one of the factors in a relationship and not necessarily the most important one.

OK, BC.  No I do not think your experience is irrelevant.  I have seen a lot of good advice from you as well as jb and Ken C.   You three do run your minds down the same railroad track though.   My point is more that not all people, American or Russian are the same.  Sometiemes Russian women are portrayed here like they come out of a cookie cutter.  I will agree they tend to have similarities in a lot of ways but we and they are all individuals.  

I think a girls inability to speak English is a barrier that each man must address with full awareness of what they must overcome.  If they are not up for the challenge then they should move on and find someone who they can communicate with.  I do not think thought that it is an absolute and total road to failure for which there is no possible positive outcome.   That is my point that I am trying to make.

I think you bc, have a lot of experience you have gained in your courtship and marriage.   I do however think that we are all individuals and what you have experienced should be examined and your wisdom should be taken as what it is, your observations on your own experiences in your persuit of happiness.  They may not be what Anono will experience or what I will experience.  That does not mean we should not listen and think long and hard about your advice.  Your advice is great.  In so many of the things we experience you have lived it and many of us have not.  That does not mean I will always agree with you or that both of us might be right or wrong at any given time.  

The girls I have met in my search all spoke excellent English.  I expect to meet with a girl on my next trip who knows almost no English.  Of course my first choice is not to have to deal with a language problem.   If I find the right gal and she does not speak English I don't plan on letting that stop me.   My only negative thing I have seen is that when I am using a terp, I find it hard to communicate.  I don't find it as hard with a gal who does not know English well if we don't use a terp.  

[jb]

Then, T/G, you are a genius, and the rest of us old married guys with several years of being married to a RW are not.

BTW, whatever happened to PhotoGuy's K-1 girl?  Is she still here in the USA, or did she go home?

And just how many barrels does a frac tank hold?

[Turboguy]

Thank you jb.  I am glad you finally recognized the truth.   

Just kidding.  I am not a genius jb.  I just see things differently than you do.  It doesn't mean I am right any more that your thinking you are right makes you right.  We are here expressing our opinions and our ideas.  Both of us knowing what a frac job is makes the first thing we have in common.  Heck, half the time I disagree with you and bc it is just because you two are fun to disagree with.   I do think you both have some good ideas and a willingness to help people so I like that.   I just don't always agree totally that things are as absolute as the three of you sometimes feel they are.

[jb]

Does anyone know what happened to PhotoGuy's K-1 girl?

Since he got mad and left in a huff I lost track of his story.  Although I somehow got the impression it was not a match made in heaven and she might not survive the 90 days.

Surely someone here was in personal contact with PhotoGuy and knows the answer to this question.

[Son of Clyde]

As far as a language barrier, it is not a problem. Only when I have to explain something from three different perspectives is it a serious issue. It has happened maybe three times in nine months.
Several guys on the board have spoken to her and can vouch that her English is not too bad.

jb, I am very concerned about Photo Guy. You can say he asked for the harsh comments, I think it may have created more stress on top of what he was already going through.

It would make me very happy to see him succeed. Maybe he has not posted because he is working things out on his own.

[Turboguy]

I am sure if you ask him he will tell you if he wants you to know.  

If I know I am not telling.

Clyde, her English is great, but I have had the impression that when you met her it was not.  I am correct on that aren't I?

[Killer-B]

Where did this FACT come from?  Please site the source, just to help us poor dumb a-holes out.  Because it sure isn't my experience in any relationship, either working, friendship, romantic, or otherwise, I've ever had. 

Geesh! Talk about... never mind

7 years of Med School, and 20+ years of teaching/study (here and abroad) are my points of reference... And I've supported "your side" as well jb... (Nor did I ever refer, or imply, or call you a dumbasshole).

If you care to read - there are 1000's of Medical Journals written on "Marriage", "Work" (esp. "Sales"), "Teaching children with Autism and/or Down's" - the list is endless really - In "my world" it's a very commonplace "fact" (usually cited though as: 90%/10%)

The Journal of Communication
Volume 52 Page 499  - September 2002
doi:10.1111/j.1460-2466.2002.tb02559.x
Volume 52 Issue 3
 Â 
Research on the Relationship Between Verbal and Nonverbal Communication: Emerging Integrations
By Stanley E. Jones, and Curtis D. LeBaron

The authors argue for an integrated approach in which verbal and nonverbal messages are studied as inseparable phenomena when they occur together. Addressed are assumptions of various forms of this type of research, potential relationships of quantitative and qualitative studies, current trends found in the investigations included in this special issue, and recommendations for further work.
 
Have fun...

FWIW - I'm NOT here "to win"... Just tossing in my 2 cents about why AW/AM marriages "fail" - Lack of communication (even though you both speak perfect English) - So you can dig on me all you want - I really don't care - Just trying to offer up a different perspective for some readers to consider (vs. "it's easier / it's NOT easier") - That's just too black & white (and  boring!)

Cheers -

[jb]

there are 1000's of Medical Journals written on "Marriage", "Work" (esp. "Sales"), "Teaching children with Autism and/or Down's" - the list is endless really - In "my world" it's a very commonplace "fact" (usually cited though as: 90%/10%)

Yeah, but..... Did any of these articals specifically address couples who don't share a common language?  I doubt it.

Like most who support the romantic notion of MOB'ism, they like to compare apples and oranges.  I could be wrong,,, but I think you are barking up the wrong tree.

[Son of Clyde]

Turbo, yes her English was not so good when I first met her. She has worked very hard to improve. I am quite proud of her.

[jb]

I am very concerned about Photo Guy. You can say he asked for the harsh comments, I think it may have created more stress on top of what he was already going through.

SofC,

I never said that, go back and research the archives if you doubt me.

I also never said she was not good looking.

I think I did say that I questioned her basic intelligence level, but since PhotoGuy was a bus driver and she was a shop-girl, it might not be a bad match. 

I also did say I didn't think PhotoGuy was well prepared financially for the ordeal ahead of him, he indicated in several posts that lack of money was a problem.  He was advised by several members, IIRC, that he was maybe going off prematurely.

I also did question why he felt there was no need to make a second or third trip to meet with her family and friends.

I also never recieved what I thought was a satisfactory answer to any of the questions I posed to PhotoGuy.  He preferred to go on the defensive whenever he was asked a question and liked to assume every post was an attack.  The boy was overly sensitive to anything said by almost anyone.  I will grant you, Anno was being very aggressive and mostly insulting at every turn,,, but I'm not Anno.

Among the married men on the board who discussed the case with me, I will say most gave him zero chance of success,,, for all the usual reasons, no common languare, nothing in common, no real reason for a marriage except maybe they were both  lonely.  Nobody was picking on Doug just because we didn't like him, he brought all that tonnage down upon himself.

[Turboguy]

SofC,

I never said that, go back and research the archives if you doubt me.
I also never said she was not good looking.

I think I did say that I questioned her basic intelligence level, but since PhotoGuy was a bus driver and she was a shop-girl, it might not be a bad match. 

I also did say I didn't think PhotoGuy was well prepared financially for the ordeal ahead of him, he indicated in several posts that lack of money was a problem.  He was advised by several members, IIRC, that he was maybe going off prematurely.

I also did question why he felt there was no need to make a second or third trip to meet with her family and friends.

I also never recieved what I thought was a satisfactory answer to any of the questions I posed to PhotoGuy.  He preferred to go on the defensive whenever he was asked a question and liked to assume every post was an attack.  The boy was overly sensitive to anything said by almost anyone.  I will grant you, Anno was being very aggressive and mostly insulting at every turn,,, but I'm not Anno.

Among the married men on the board who discussed the case with me, I will say most gave him zero chance of success,,, for all the usual reasons, no common languare, nothing in common, no real reason for a marriage except maybe they were both  lonely.  Nobody was picking on Doug just because we didn't like him, he brought all that tonnage down upon himself.

I will be surprised if Photo guy ever comes back but as far as your "go back and search the archives"  What are you going to find.  The whole series of posts were deleted because they were so nasty.   As far as what was said and who said it I will just say you were not very kind to photoguy.  I think you meant well but as we have said, I think the clue bad does more harm than good.

I know a lot more about the story then he ever posted here, and there is more.  As far as having anything in common I think that applies to a lot of the people here.  I think he had as much as most guys.  As far as his income, I know at least what he told me he made and he could support a wife just fine.  As far as assuming every post was an attack it looked to me like every post was an attack.  Why would he not think that.  When someone says your girl is uglier than a junk yard dog, that is an attack.  I clearly remember you saying she was low class, isn't that an attack?  We have been through this before but I don't think a person who has a job that is not prestigious is neccessarily a lesser person than someone who has more education and a job with more status.   Maybe I am the only one who feels this way but I think the worth of a person is more about the things in their heart and the good feelings they share for people than how much money they make.   

[Killer-B]

Yeah, but..... Did any of these articals specifically address couples who don't share a common language?  I doubt it.

Your reasoning is valid - for a select few - But would encourage you to broaden your scope of thought a little...

You ask if these reports are specific to "Language" - Yes, and No... Have studies (that I know of) been done on Russian vs. English partners? - I highly doubt it... But that does not invalidate "other" subjects in the spectrum...

For one (you) could conclude, that whilst teaching at Cambridge or Auckland or Stamford - while 50% of the populous is "English" native speaking - 50% are not... Meaning English is their 2nd or 3rd language... and yet they "survive" (and thrive) in the "real world" and a foreign country quite well - I've seen it - It's been studied (in relationships, teaching, children, the disabled, marriages, work environments, etc.).... All sectors of life really - So, I'd venture to say that these "reports" are actually more comprehensive about overall "life" (verbal relations vs. non-verbal) than any one study on Russian vs. English (though it would be an excellent study to do!)

My last GF abroad was Thai - and a flight attendant for Thai Air... She was required to learn English for "service" - That said, she was only 2 years into it all when we first met - and allot of times found myself "struggling" just to express (portray) the simplest of concepts and thoughts to her (and just forget the "tough" topics i.e. love, dedication, marriage, emotions, etc.) - but my point is that it was very doable - OVER TIME - it DID work out in the end... with allot of patience - and understanding and compassion...

Take some previous observations (read as: Suggestions) posted up thread....  "OneWeekWonder" kicked this topic off by stating that this requires ALLOT of "patience" - Something I'm not seeing displayed here.. Therefore, as the next poster said, he'd recommend you find (found) a gal that speaks fluent English so you have NO issues... (and if/when you do have "issues" - what hurdle will you blame them on?)

Granted, there are allot of dynamics in motion here - There's "Age", "Culture", "EMOTIONAL maturity" - "Education"... and "Willingness" just to name a few...

Speaking of the latter - I forgot to mention in my prior post the other reason(s) I seek someone who is not 100% well versed in English... First, I've found that this is an EXCELLENT "gauge" of sorts to see just how "willing" a lady is to step up and make the effort needed to truly "learn".... in order to survive in a new country, as well as truly succeed in "understanding her partner".... Secondly, (ironically) I don't hear many AM talking about *them* learning Russian?? - Fascinating! - We men expect so much from the RW - yet are too lazy to learn?? I know Turbo and I both study it - And will assume you married folk have studied and learned (and are learning more with each passing day!) - But if I were a RW reading this thread - I'd be more than disenchanted to see that some men are wanting to take the easy route... As AdrewFi once wrote - RW and AM are "lazy"... Whilst I rarely agree with him (actually, never) - On this point, I might concede...

Cheers -

[PeeWee]

Huh. I'm sure glad that Clyde quit posting here. 

Peewee

[Son of Clyde]

Huh. I'm sure glad that Clyde quit posting here. 

Peewee

I stopped just as the migration was being completed. Now I feel like testing the new board. I am sticking to my guns about not posting personal stuff.

[Markus]

My wife just finished her final exams tonight on grammar and oral communications. The total time of both exams was 3 hours. Now, I'm still having difficulty explaining to her that the Dallas Cowboys are America's Football team. Her teacher is a Steelers fan and has even stated she doesn't like the Cowboys.

Next, my wife will take grammar in summer school 4 days a week. She's skipping the oral communications because it's not a challenge to her. She will enroll in both level IV grammar and oral communications in the fall.

On a more humorous note, during the 2nd week after my wife had arrived. I told her I would buy her a new blouse to replace one she didn't bring with her. As we were driving, she saw a "body shop" and asked if we could go buy a blouse. I couldn't help but laugh because it was a body shop for fixing damaged cars.

Mark

[ronin308]

KillerB, there is a fairly good reason why most men here don't talk about learning russian (although quite a few know basic words).  In almost all of the cases the couple will lliving in the US so her learning English is light years more important than him learning Russian.  I've actually heard several of the men post that their women don't want their SOs speaking in Russian so they can focus on learning English.

This is true in my case as well.  We focus on english because it is far more important that she be able to adapt to life here than me learning russian.  We have discussed the same thing when it comes to Russian TV.

I've spent a lot of time in high noise environments where you rely on non-verbal communications.  While you can be effective in getting basic tasks done it's fairly challenging to communicate complex concepts non-verbally.  

When you combine non-verbal can definately help when you have verbal communication but how do you why your girl is laughing if you can't ask her?

I do agree that you can meet a non-english speaking girl but it will take longer to establish a relationship leading to marriage and as others have said more patience than needed if you share a language.  I also think that how quickly a lady learns/relearns the language is going to give you an idea of her intelligence and motivation.  

[Killer-B]

she saw a "body shop" and asked if we could go buy a blouse. I couldn't help but laugh because it was a body shop for fixing damaged cars

You're lucky you weren't in Australia/NZ - Body Shops are called "Panel Beaters" there!! 

[Bruno]

I think I did say that I questioned her basic intelligence level, but since PhotoGuy was a bus driver and she was a shop-girl, it might not be a bad match. 

     ... 

These sentence is very insulting for all people who have no prestige job...

The first think that you need to know is that intelligence is not related to the study level or the work...

I can use my own example : i am a gardener but ... I have a college diploma in Science and Mathematic, a University Gradua Analyst-programmer, a A2C Electro-mech ( one year intensive school, same level that college diploma ), a B2 Weapon technicus... of course, on the side, i have follow several other formation in foreign country ( Holland : Radar/Computer, Germany : Leadership, France : Mechanic/Hydraulic, USA : Rocketry, etc ... ).

So, a work is not related to the education level... and education is not related to intelligence level ( Einstein was very bad at school ). How much from these high educated people need to call a electrician for change a simple lamp !!!

Now for coming back to the language problem, who is not the real problem... I don't care if a girl know perfectly one of my know language... but i care about her wish to learn it... if you find a woman with a English knowledge from 7/10 but she is lazy and will not learn, she will always stay a 7/10... on the other side, a women 3/10 who wish learn can reach a 10/10 in one year or little more time...

Use the dating time for analyse the evolution of the language knowledge from your girlfriend... if it don't change in a positive way, beware... if it become better, just give her the time to allow her reach a high level...

[Killer-B]

Hey Ronin -

Good to hear from you as usual... For some reason the site is not letting me "quote you" - so am having to rework your thoughts from scratch here...

For starters, I can't ever think of a time that I've publically (or privately) disagreed with you or your thoughts on a topic - and don't feel it's time to start tonight

Actually, I thought what you wrote, echoed my sentiments exactly... Bottom line, it's doable- but not for everyone... I think we all agree on that much.

Just for the sake of clarification, I'm not saying one should go out and find a non-English speaking gal, and reinvent the wheel -I've just seen a LOT of great gals "passed over" because a guy didn't want to invest some extra time and/or energy into learning or understanding... But at the end of the day, yeah, you're right - It takes patience - and fortitude - and a willing spirit on BOTH sides...

RE: Speaking Russian - We've kinda kicked this around already on TV thread - Seemed to me it was split 50/50 (roughly) as to who would allow (or want) their lady to watch Russian programming - and those that restricted it...

As a side note to that "thought" - I understand what you're saying about the focus being on English, and for sure, this is now her bread and butter - and will largely determine if she's going to be a success or not here in America - But, let me play the other side of the coin (for those of us still searching) - From an "impression" point of view, if you can speak 1000 words of Russian, it places you LIGHTYEARS ahead of the other guys... Not to mention "relationship issues" - for when she gets tripped up by "the big words" - you can spin it around and talk with her in her native tongue - for at the end of the day, it's all about keeping the peace (or reaching resolution) Nyet?

I'll add this to the mix - (And you know better than anyone) that a RW's "heritage" and "Mother Russia" is primo - key - #1 in her eyes and is her "identity" - Yes, she's an "American" now - But will always bleed for Mother Russia (or Ukraine what have you) - Anyway, point is, talking to my S.O. about the future - and raising kids - you should just see them light up and beam when you talk about instilling BOTH family heritages into the USA "Family" - So that the children are raised to know it's OK to be Russian and American (and that mommy and daddy talk in Russian too)... I've found this effort places them more at ease, and shows them that "I care"... (And again, all that is said with the crystal clear understanding, that knowing English is priority #1) - Never hurts to soften the blow for her though when she can't find the "right" English words...

Of course YMMV

Cheers -

KB