Divorce finally final after 3 years and 3 different lawyers for her.

[JayH]

  For example, based on YB's responses here, I don't think a FSUW is for him.

It took you until this thread to reach that conclusion ?   

[Misha]

Arrogant selfish ass should have known better.

Broken record mode: yes, he should have known better. If you marry somebody from another country, don't expect them to leave their language and culture behind as soon as they land with their immigration papers in hand.

[Daveman]

Yes, it was excellent. 


I think if you are actively seeking a foreign spouse, you should consider this if you plan to have children...

Posolutely Absotively...

Broken record mode: yes, he should have known better. If you marry somebody from another country, don't expect them to leave their language and culture behind as soon as they land with their immigration papers in hand.

just FTR...


I asked my wife about this as a hypothetical,  Her answer was, "don't be stupid, when we're all together we'll speak English together, when not, you'll teach English and I'll teach Russian and Ukrainian. How can we be a family if we don't speak all together same?"


So we're on the same page that way, so knowing better doesn't really come into play here... except... her answer didn't sound so hypothetical.. 

[Misha]

I asked my wife about this as a hypothetical,  Her answer was, "don't be stupid, when we're all together we'll speak English together, when not, you'll teach English and I'll teach Russian and Ukrainian. How can we be a family if we don't speak all together same?"

When baby or child is reaching for the hot cup of tea or otherwise doing something that would not be good, I am sure that the first thing she will do is look around to see if Daveman is within earshot to decide what language to use to cry out to the baby or child "don't touch"   


The thing is, people get into a habit of speaking one language with someone, including children, and will thus have a tendency to speak to that person in the language that comes most "naturally." It would be quite odd from my perspective that as soon as the father enters the room the mother switches languages and then switches back into her language as soon as he steps back out. That is what would make for one truly linguistically confused child :p

[Daveman]

Natural is natural. I'm quite certain Daveman has no problems with nor aversions to other languages or cultures, whether he's in the room or not. 

The point being that family unity takes priority over any notions of conditional language choice.  There's a time for family bonding and communication and a time for promoting cultural heritage, language etc..  Sometimes those may happen simultaneously, sometimes not.  Couples should deal with such potential issues, before they become issues.

[Ade]

When baby or child is reaching for the hot cup of tea or otherwise doing something that would not be good, I am sure that the first thing she will do is look around to see if Daveman is within earshot to decide what language to use to cry out to the baby or child "don't touch"   


The thing is, people get into a habit of speaking one language with someone, including children, and will thus have a tendency to speak to that person in the language that comes most "naturally." It would be quite odd from my perspective that as soon as the father enters the room the mother switches languages and then switches back into her language as soon as he steps back out. That is what would make for one truly linguistically confused child :p

What happens in the real world rather than some silly internet argument is that when a person is interacting with their child and their partner they speak a common language. If that partner just walks in and out of the room for a moment of course you/they don't switch languages they are using with the child - that is just silly and impractical.

Here's a good resource; http://www.linguisticsociety.org/files/Bilingual_Child.pdf

[LiveFromUkraine]

What happens in the real world rather than some silly internet argument is that when a person is interacting with their child and their partner they speak a common language. If that partner just walks in and out of the room for a moment of course you/they don't switch languages they are using with the child - that is just silly and impractical.

Here's a good resource; http://www.linguisticsociety.org/files/Bilingual_Child.pdf

Damn Ade, that would have been so much fun.  I can only imagine standing around the corner, listening in on the Russian conversation and walking in and out of the room watching them switch between English and Russian. 


Now that would have been a lot of fun and it's all ruined by common sense.

[LiveFromUkraine]

This seems to be more of a compatibility issue, at least to me.  The language problem is just part of that.


I remember reading a post from a member (name escapes me) who ended his marriage because of differences in child rearing.  I don't believe they had kids but their plans for raising kids were vastly different that they ended the marriage even though it was a loving one.


To me, this sounds similar, in a way.  Maybe the loving turned to resentment because of it and things escalated from there.


Like I said earlier, I think many people skip over how they want their children to be raised during the romance portion of the relationship. 


Something that should be talked about regardless of where your partner comes from.

[Ade]

Something that should be talked about regardless of where your partner comes from.

Yes, this is essential before people get married to make sure they are on the same page.

[Misha]

The point being that family unity takes priority over any notions of conditional language choice. 

Divorce really doesn't do much for family unity.

[size=78%]There's a time for family bonding and communication and a time for promoting cultural heritage, language etc..[/size]

The question is who decides. If it is the father who says (I am being facetious here): "Though shalt not speak that Roooo-sheeeaaan whenever I am within 50 feet of the house" then that will certainly lead to resentment and that will certainly torpedo any "family unity." To be honest, in my observations, it is not really an issue when both are tolerant of each others language(s) and when there is a strong bond between the parents. If one parent does not mind that the other parents speaks their language to their child(ren) then the conversation will naturally flow and there will invariably be switching occurring naturally between languages without the speakers even noticing it.   

[size=78%]Couples should deal with such potential issues, before they become issues.[/size]

By then, it is already too late. The right time to be thinking about these things is before you even go on your first date with a woman from another country who speaks another language. I say it is best to assume the "worst" case scenario: 1) your in-laws will come and live with you and neither will speak your language; 2) consequently, you will be hearing Russian (or whatever other language) all the time and in many conversations you will not be understanding anything.


If that potential outcome would be hellish, then I would recommend not getting on that plane and dating locally. Sure, you may find overseas that woman who is an orphan, who hates her language and is looking forward to moving to the United States, assimilating, while still somehow not becoming Westernized, but I would not bet the farm on this outcome :p Expect what you consider the worst, and you may yet be pleasantly surprised

[Daveman]

What happens in the real world rather than some silly internet argument is that when a person is interacting with their child and their partner they speak a common language. If that partner just walks in and out of the room for a moment of course you/they don't switch languages they are using with the child - that is just silly and impractical.

Here's a good resource; http://www.linguisticsociety.org/files/Bilingual_Child.pdf

An interesting quote from that article, emphasis mine:


"Still another problem is exclusion. If one of the parents doesn't speak the other's language (in our example, suppose the American woman doesn't speak Turkish), the children will know that every time they say something in Turkish to their father they are excluding their mother from the conversation. This may make children reluctant to speak one of the parents' languages when both parents are present. In our experience, a bilingual home is more likely to succeed if both parents at least understand both languages-that way, nobody is ever excluded from a family conversation."

[Ade]

An interesting quote from that article, emphasis mine:


"Still another problem is exclusion. If one of the parents doesn't speak the other's language (in our example, suppose the American woman doesn't speak Turkish), the children will know that every time they say something in Turkish to their father they are excluding their mother from the conversation. This may make children reluctant to speak one of the parents' languages when both parents are present. In our experience, a bilingual home is more likely to succeed if both parents at least understand both languages-that way, nobody is ever excluded from a family conversation."

Yes, in an ideal world, of course both parents would be fluent in both languages but life isn't always that accommodating so you have to do as best you can.

However, what is known, and it's mentioned in that link, is that children don't get confused by multiple languages being spoken in a household.

[Daveman]

There are other implications as well, e.g., if children indeed feel that they are excluding a parent, yet the other parent reinforces that exclusion by some arbitrary rule, that creates undue emotional stress and thus divides the family via emotions as well as language. This, obviously, implies that specific language requirements do not promote family unity.

[Daveman]

Divorce really doesn't do much for family unity.

No, but family unity doesn't do much to raise divorce rates either. Attitudes and ensuing behaviors which promote family inclusiveness, unity and cohesion, such as communication, are generally the antitheses to those attitudes and behaviors which lead in the direction of divorce.


And no, I'm not insinuating that speaking to your daughter in French is the antithesis of family unity.

The question is who decides.

According to my wife, who along with being an amazingly brilliant woman also just happens to be a very adept family psychologist, no one decides. The decision of dominant language during "family time" is predetermined by the common language shared by all.  That doesn't preclude the use of other languages but rather promotes the most inclusive one.

If it is the father who says (I am being facetious here): "Though shalt not speak that Roooo-sheeeaaan whenever I am within 50 feet of the house" then that will certainly lead to resentment and that will certainly torpedo any "family unity." To be honest, in my observations, it is not really an issue when both are tolerant of each others language(s) and when there is a strong bond between the parents. If one parent does not mind that the other parents speaks their language to their child(ren) then the conversation will naturally flow and there will invariably be switching occurring naturally between languages without the speakers even noticing it.

The keys there are tolerance, strong bonds, etc.. those usually derive from meaningful communication on various levels with language, while obviously important, being but one of many.  I don't disagree with what you wrote. The difference in Greg's situation is that he was deliberately excluded by wife/mother and, more importantly, felt excluded. Hence, his requests for English.  The fact that the English requests, and more importantly his feelings on the matter, were disregarded has ramifications involving the state of the relationship regardless of language(s) involved.

By then, it is already too late. The right time to be thinking about these things is before you even go on your first date with a woman from another country who speaks another language. I say it is best to assume the "worst" case scenario: 1) your in-laws will come and live with you and neither will speak your language; 2) consequently, you will be hearing Russian (or whatever other language) all the time and in many conversations you will not be understanding anything.


If that potential outcome would be hellish, then I would recommend not getting on that plane and dating locally. Sure, you may find overseas that woman who is an orphan, who hates her language and is looking forward to moving to the United States, assimilating, while still somehow not becoming Westernized, but I would not bet the farm on this outcome :p Expect what you consider the worst, and you may yet be pleasantly surprised

Absolutely agree here...

[TS]

Daveman, I don't know your background.  Do you and your RW have children together or children from other marriages.  Just wondering your experience on the matter?  You seem very strong in your beliefs which is ok. 
 
 

[Misha]

The difference in Greg's situation is that he was deliberately excluded by wife/mother and, more importantly, felt excluded. Hence, his requests for English.

Perhaps, but mies did ask some important questions that were not answered. I agree with your word choice of "felt" as we cannot tell whether the exclusion was real or perceived... How does that Russian saying go, we weren't there under their bed with a candle


P.S. Oops, did not notice that error before posting (were instead of we).

[Daveman]

Daveman, I don't know your background.  Do you and your RW have children together or children from other marriages.  Just wondering your experience on the matter?  You seem very strong in your beliefs which is ok.

No bilingual kids. Actually, my opinions and beliefs are quite fluid and subject to change with additional information - at any time.  Just enjoying an interesting and quite decent discussion here (blame Misha for that one  ).  Words on a forum sound more proselytizing than they are. 


Here's an example of a take on an Occam's Razor Reductio ad Absurdum slice of the matter:

Don't date women with whom you do not share a common language - however, it's perfectly okay to introduce a deliberate language barrier in the family communication in the name of Mama's Dictatorial Powers and the Gods of Multiculturalism. 

Perhaps, but mies did ask some important questions that were not answered. I agree with your word choice of "felt" as we cannot tell whether the exclusion was real or perceived... How does that Russian saying go, were weren't there under their bed with a candle

Haha! True enough...

[Misha]

Language can be a tricky issue and what is "offensive" to some can be less than rational. For example, my wife at one of her jobs would talk in Russian to a co-worker. Sometimes another co-worker would take offense even if they were not part of the conversation (i.e. they were standing behind both my wife and her co-worker). Apparently, it was "bad manners" to not talk in English so the co-worker could eavesdrop on a conversation that did not concern her 

[GQBlues]

....
The point being that family unity takes priority over any notions of conditional language choice.  There's a time for family bonding and communication and a time for promoting cultural heritage, language etc..  Sometimes those may happen simultaneously, sometimes not.  Couples should deal with such potential issues, before they become issues.

Yeppers, exactly with us...

Already had the conversation with wifey. Exactly what we talked about...family above all.

Her perspective is exactly like mine. Stress on English, all others as they come. This may or may not have any bearing in what she witnessed with her nephew, but above and foremost - WE ARE FAMILY!

The intention is they'll be at least bilingual through us, but common language, in our home - will be English. She even asked me if I will teach my native tongue. I told her 'no' - maybe a couple of bad words, maybe 3, as we do have some pretty nasty ones...but beyond that, it's unnecessary.

[mies]

Am I the only one confused by Mies' post? 


4 people are now in discomfort over speaking English and then 2 people do not speak a common language.


Where are these numbers coming from?

The math is simple: 4 people are his ex, her mother, and 2 children. Children are experiencing discomfort not from talking English, apparently. They are experiencing discomfort when their mother cannot communicate with them because she is forced to speak to them language she isn't fluent at.
Ex experienced discomfort because she was forced to communicate to her children in the language she wasn't perfectly fluent at. Her mother felt discomfort because she was "excluded" from the conversations with her grandchildren, since she didn't speak perfect English from what I understood. There is a whole set of rules on how to be a good host (once you invited someone).
What YoungBuck is trying to present as "good manners" isn't good manners at all, it's forcing several people in your family to go through different degrees of discomfort for the only reason that one person in the family is selfish and lazy.

[mies]

I did not ask you but yes I understand that. I m looking for her opinion

If you understand that, why do you verbally attack her with provocative questions? Starting an argument for the sake of the argument?
She never said she doesn't want/plan to learn foreign language, she said her children would know/speak Russian (not necessarily ONLY Russian).

[Boethius]

The math is simple: 4 people are his ex, her mother, and 2 children. Children are experiencing discomfort not from talking English, apparently. They are experiencing discomfort when their mother cannot communicate with them because she is forced to speak to them language she isn't fluent at.

Greg's daughter was 4, his son 1 when they separated.  His daughter may have had some confusion if her mother suddenly switched to English, but I doubt his son would have experienced any discomfort.

[Ade]

Greg's daughter was 4, his son 1 when they separated.  His daughter may have had some confusion if her mother suddenly switched to English, but I doubt his son would have experienced any discomfort.

Unless I have a faulty memory here, previous threads of Greg's stated that he wanted his wife to teach his kids English. She, IMO understandably, was only talking Russian to them while Greg wasn't there. When ask why he wasn't teaching them English himself, he said he wasn't there enough because of work. So all this around the mulberry argumentation about what's the best multilingual methodology for a family is by the by in his case if you ask me. He wanted it to be his way (English exclusively as "it's what they speak in this country") or the highway. Turned out, the highway is what it was.


If he'd read around, just a little, or even listened to what people told him here, he would understand that, long term, English would never be a problem - we even have Russian couples (RM+RW) living in Norway that complain that their kids aren't keeping up with their Russian language skills as they insist on speaking the language of their peer group which is Norwegian. And that's with both parents speaking Russian exclusively at home.


Greg made something into a relationship threatening contentious issue which never needed to be. Much of the bollocks he's spinning in this thread is just to garner sympathy and bears little resemblance to what he's posted previously.

[mies]

Greg's daughter was 4, his son 1 when they separated.  His daughter may have had some confusion if her mother suddenly switched to English, but I doubt his son would have experienced any discomfort.

children experience discomfort not from switching. Children experience discomfort when their mother is forced to communicate to them in the language she is not fluent at or do not perceive as her native and doesn't want to use. I think being with a happy  mother who can say all the wonderful things in the language she is fluent at, is as important for a 1yo as it is for a 4yo.

[Daveman]

The math is simple: 4 people are his ex, her mother, and 2 children. Children are experiencing discomfort not from talking English, apparently. They are experiencing discomfort when their mother cannot communicate with them because she is forced to speak to them language she isn't fluent at.

You are portraying a disingenuous scenario.  She spoke in her native language. Her mother spoke in her native language.  She ignored his requests to speak in English.


This isn't and never was about the children, or their ability to be bilingual.  This is about the relationship between mother and father along with the pressures and probable interference of a live-in mother/mil.