Divorce finally final after 3 years and 3 different lawyers for her.

[Boethius]

So-- Why are middle aged woman so paranoid about being replaced by a younger "model"? 

I think most middle aged women are not paranoid about this.  In marriages where this is an issue, the foundation was built on sand to begin with.

[Ooooops]

I think most middle aged women are not paranoid about this. 

That all depends on the prehistory.   If it comes out of the blue then you are kinda lost - last time you dated people were wearing bell bottom jeans and listening to ABBA and now?...

[Boethius]

I mean most middle aged women are not paranoid that their husbands will leave them for a younger woman.   I don't think it has to do with dating again, but rather, with being alone.

[Ooooops]

I mean most middle aged women are not paranoid that their husbands will leave them for a younger woman. 

I know.   That thought makes you better sleep at night.      But then again - we a survivors, right?

[vwrw]

" Some people may say it often, automatically. Other people really mean it when they say it, when they are REALLY grateful, when the other person went out of their way to do something good.

I absolutely agree with you. I enjoy american way of living. The exchange of pleasantries even if it is enforced by the culture feels good. However, american "thank you" almost never touches you deeply. Russian "thank you" will get to you, it is palpable, it commends to be noticed.  You can feel and see gratitude when a Russian says "thank you"

[TomT]

So-- Why are middle aged woman so paranoid about being replaced by a younger "model"?

The question contains an unfounded assumption (that women are paranoid). It would be analogous to someone being asked if he still wears protective head gear during his everyday activities. Obviously, at least to most of us, that question would only be valid if there was a time when head gear was worn.

[TomT]

However, american "thank you" almost never touches you deeply. Russian "thank you" will get to you, it is palpable, it commends to be noticed.  You can feel and see gratitude when a Russian says "thank you"

It's possible for the person being thanked to have a skewed perception of sincerity due to a cultural bias.

[vwrw]

.... we do not do good things for people we love in order to be appreciated - we do those things because we love those people. I know that my husband thanks me sometimes, probably often, but I have no idea whether he thanks me every time, or every 5th time. When I do something for him I seek the signs that he is happy, not the signs/words that he appreciates my actions. Of course, hearing "thank you" is nice, but really, seeing him happy and enjoying whatever I've gave him, tangible or intangible, is the best appreciation I ever want. I cannot understand people who sit with the accounting book and do the math: "I've done 10 good things for my spouse this week, she thanked me 6 times, that is 4 "thanks" short. She is not a good wife, I did not receive my compensation, she does not appreciate me enough."

I absolutely agree with you. I always do. Maybe if you add "vwrw agrees with my opinion" to your signature at the bottom of your post, I will feel less compelled to follow you with my "I agree". 

[vwrw]

It's possible for the person being thanked to have a skewed perception of sincerity due to a cultural bias.

Everything imaginable is possible. So yes, what you say is  possible. It is also possible that a sincere thank you is more effective and palpable because it is accompanied by emotions; while the thank you resulted from a conditioned reflex is dull and unnoticeable.

[Daveman]

I am not sure whether we you and I are defending the same idea, or not, but I think we agree that "thank you" as a sign of appreciation is important. At the same time, we do not do good things for people we love in order to be appreciated - we do those things because we love those people.

Yes... and no...  In a marriage/relationship, of course we do those things because we love those people, but, if/when the feeling of appreciation for what we do stops, so do those things we do. 


I also assert that one cannot truly love someone, in the emotional sense, and not feel appreciation for them. Love and appreciation are inseparable.  There are various ways to express love or appreciation, but where the latter is lacking so is the former.

She is not a good wife, I did not receive my compensation, she does not appreciate me enough."

Another argumentum ad absurdum.  Now you are stating that the need to feel appreciated is the equivalent of demanding compensation.  That just doesn't fly.


I guarantee you though, show me a wife who really is unappreciative, and I'll show you one who doesn't love her husband.

[Muzh]

The only certainties we have are:


1) That situation is damn weird.
2) It was even damn weirder than damn weird.
3) They're better off apart, regardless of how weird it was.
4) The MIL should have been dragged out and shot on the spot. 

Absolutely. 

[GQBlues]

It's possible for the person being thanked to have a skewed perception of sincerity due to a cultural bias.

Exactly. That's the reason why I asserted above there are prejudicial bias in these matters. To say, much less believe, one culture have a deeper sincerity in departing with acts of gratitude over another is absurd at the least. Especially one from a culture barely out of an Orwellian period. People are, generally, products of their environment.

The Japanese culture use bowing as an act of courtesy and politeness. If there are more than one person one deems such act is called for, the person bows accordingly. There's no measurement of sincerity because 'one bow was lower than the other or the act was repeatedly done for each person. To say there's degrees of appreciation, or a measure of appreciation, is misguided.

People say 'thank you' simply because it is an expression of gratitude whether it be Chinese, Indian, Irish or French. Every culture in the world exercise this VERY SIMPLE act of gratitude. No more no less...so whether one does it or not is completely and solely reliant upon that particular person's character.

This is exactly my point above. Why is there even ANY need for this to be discussed when everyone agrees such is a simple but comforting gesture of kindness?

[GQBlues]

It's not a bias or prejudice, it's a cultural difference. The "small talk" does not exist in FSU, a person can pour their soul to you on a train or subway ride- and it will be deep and meaningful conversation, when they expect your feedback, and discussion, and will tell you some very personal things. Nothing like that ever (normally) happens in the US. When people in FSU ask "how are you doing" they actually expect to hear the answer how the person is doing, with all the details - the more details the better. These are just the two most common differences between the FSU and USA, that are on the surface and apparent to everybody.

I am not saying that either behavior type is good or bad, I'm just pointing that FSU and USA are in fact, remarkably different in that regard....

Well, you can believe that. I don't. What I know is that on crowded buses, RMs take that as an opportunity to cop a feel on the woman standing next to him and at almost every opportunity. Further, it is widely discussed, and chronicled around here, and while everyone knows it doesn't encompass the entire population, there still lies widespread Orwellian attitude in the FSU. Now to somehow make this reality as though Russian/Ukrainian are models of sincerity is now starting to get ridiculous.


There are bad/good people anywhere and everywhere. Bad/Good behaviors are NOT culturally dependent.

 

...Actually, I think you are right on point here. When a US person does not see smiles, does not hear nice things, and does not hear "thank you" - they start feeling discomfort and thinking that something is unusual or wrong, simply because they are used to hear "thank you" and all nice things, because this is how things are in the USA. Whereas when an FSU person is demanded/prompted to do something they are not used to do, they may start feeling that the other person is self-centered pest. In such cases, respect for another person, and clear, friendly and regular communication between the two individuals  - are vital...

..and that's exactly the crux. Now it's just a matter of....'When in Rome, do as Romans do'. I certainly won't 'live' anywhere in FSU knowing certain things are done differently, for whatever reason, and expect THEM to live by my creed. If I live in Japan, and the populations engage in bowing to one another as a sign of respect, it would be silly to do nothing because in MY country we just don't do that. We smile, say pleasantries, etc in the US - but if I find myself in Japan, you can bet I'll bow instead of doing the things that are customarily done in the US.

...On the "friendliness" and "suspicion to extra friendliness/smiles" in the FSU - I had a revelation just a few days ago. I finally started reading Solzhenitsyn's "Archipelag Gulag." Normally people start from this book when reading about Gulag and Kolyma. I started from all other famous works on this topic, and finally got to Solzhenitsyn. And there, in the first chapter, he talks about different methods of arrests of people in the USSR during the 1920-1940s. He says that the common technique used by NKVD was to approach the person on the street pretending they are an old-forgotten friend, a neighbor, ex-colleague, or an old classmate, and start extra-friendly small talk with smiles and laughs, luring the individual to follow them "to the nearest place to sit and talk and catch up on things". Then once the individual was off their regular route, and not in the middle of the crowd, he was suddenly surrounded by several more policemen, or shoved into the police car, and his friends and relatives would never see him again, or would see him 10+ years later. According to Solzhenitsyn, the practice was so wide spread, that people started fearing talking to strangers on the streets, and especially fearing unusually friendly and cheerful/smiley strangers. I found in the books/memoirs of other people who served their time in Gulag and Kolyma many striking explanations to the current "cultural and behavioral norms" in the FSU. This is clearly one of them, and makes a perfect sense. Now, having this thought in mind, Bulgakov's "never talk to strangers" in Master and Margarita gains a completely new dimension of meaning. And Solzhenitsyn points that out as well! After all, Bulgakov lived and wrote in those grim years....

OK. So I think what you're saying here is that FSU folks are a product of an Orwellian rule, thus they are products of their own environment. I get it. FSU folks are historically untrustworthy, or folks are not too 'trusting'. Is this the point you were trying to make?

...I am not sure whether we you and I are defending the same idea, or not, but I think we agree that "thank you" as a sign of appreciation is important. At the same time, we do not do good things for people we love in order to be appreciated - we do those things because we love those people. I know that my husband thanks me sometimes, probably often, but I have no idea whether he thanks me every time, or every 5th time. When I do something for him I seek the signs that he is happy, not the signs/words that he appreciates my actions. Of course, hearing "thank you" is nice, but really, seeing him happy and enjoying whatever I've gave him, tangible or intangible, is the best appreciation I ever want. I cannot understand people who sit with the accounting book and do the math: "I've done 10 good things for my spouse this week, she thanked me 6 times, that is 4 "thanks" short. She is not a good wife, I did not receive my compensation, she does not appreciate me enough."

...and what you're doing here is projecting. You're taking your perception of what you believe happened in Greg's marriage and then project it entirely to an entire culture as though everyone is like that here. THAT, is simply WRONG. There are no accounting of endearing actions in any successful relationship whether it be between people of the same culture or people of varying cultures, whether they're living in Timbukto or San Bernardino.

I'm starting to believe that you're not really addressing differences in cultures but are subliminally citing anecdotes to illustrate your emotional perspective and distaste about the events in Greg's relationship.

[Daveman]

...

People say 'thank you' simply because it is an expression of gratitude whether it be Chinese, Indian, Irish or French. Every culture in the world exercise this VERY SIMPLE act of gratitude. No more no less...so whether one does it or not is completely and solely reliant upon that particular person's character.

Obviously I agree there... It's amazing to me what excuses arise in attempts to justify characters which, IMO, should simply be avoided wherever possible.

This is exactly my point above. Why is there even ANY need for this to be discussed when everyone agrees such is a simple but comforting gesture of kindness?

I have no idea.  Perhaps it's a matter of semantics.  I remember having almost an identical "appreciation" debate in another thread where someone asked something along the lines of  "are FSUW parasites".  That one may have been splitting hairs on my part concerning Appreciation vs. Entitlement, but the arguments about appreciation from various angles are virtually identical in this thread.


Edit to add: found that other thread
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=14485.0

[Misha]

I absolutely agree with you. I enjoy american way of living. The exchange of pleasantries even if it is enforced by the culture feels good. However, american "thank you" almost never touches you deeply. Russian "thank you" will get to you, it is palpable, it commends to be noticed.  You can feel and see gratitude when a Russian says "thank you"

Well, to be fair, I would highlight that you are most likely to "feel" gratitude and "see" gratitude when it is happening in your native tongue, and more than likely with people that you grew up with or at the very least who have grown up in the same culture with you. It is a form of observer bias.

[Misha]

The "small talk" does not exist in FSU, a person can pour their soul to you on a train or subway ride- and it will be deep and meaningful conversation, when they expect your feedback, and discussion, and will tell you some very personal things.

Really?!? This makes it seem as if there are only two modes of conversation in Russia: the non-conversation where you only glare at each other in silence, and the soul-to-soul conversation where you will reveal everything to each other. To be honest, I have never noticed this. People were pretty capable of simply chatting on all those 24 or 48-hour long train rides I took over the years in Russia. Not every conversation I ever had in Russia was "deep and meaningful" and sometimes it simply involved talking about the weather 

[steveboy]

Im just asking?? Having just purchased a small kitten for the kids this weekend, do they speak to the cat in Russian or English? For that matter what language is the cat likely to understand?
its something that has just come to light!

[Daveman]

Im just asking?? Having just purchased a small kitten for the kids this weekend, do they speak to the cat in Russian or English? For that matter what language is the cat likely to understand?
its something that has just come to light!

We have a Ukrainian kittygirl... she understands "Daddy" just fine. 

[steveboy]

  Ok just don't want to confuse the poor thing before it grows up, wouldn't be fair on the cat

[Daveman]

Ok just don't want to confuse the poor thing before it grows up, wouldn't be fair on the cat

Well, if you're really being serious, they're more sound oriented.  To get her away from somewhere she shouldn't be.. make the Russian "tse" sound - long and loudly.. TSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS, like the sound of compressed air being released.  Otherwise, just whisper, speak softly, make soft sounds like  "kukukuku", "ksskssksskss" and they'll relate very well.


But if he/she isn't appreciative of your efforts.. the open window makes an excellent target... 

[steveboy]

 

[mies]

...and what you're doing here is projecting. You're taking your perception of what you believe happened in Greg's marriage and then project it entirely to an entire culture as though everyone is like that here. THAT, is simply WRONG. There are no accounting of endearing actions in any successful relationship whether it be between people of the same culture or people of varying cultures, whether they're living in Timbukto or San Bernardino.

I'm starting to believe that you're not really addressing differences in cultures but are subliminally citing anecdotes to illustrate your emotional perspective and distaste about the events in Greg's relationship.

Not really, I am merely looking for correlations between Greg's marriage the way I perceived it from his words, and my observations on cultures in FSU and USA.

On the second remark - it is possible that the perspective I am illustrating is somewhat emotional. I, as a first generation immigrant in this country, am trying to fit in and really feel that this country is my new home. At the same time, I do not feel that I need to forget my heritage, ancestors, and erase from my mind 25 years of my life, all my relatives, all of it. So basically when I read stories like this one, I am wondering "what if I will end up in a situation like this one. How am I going resolve it? Would I be OK if my husband will not allow me to speak Russian to my young children? What else he will be controlling in my life?" I do want to become true American, but I am not ready to say that 25 years of me being a Ukrainian never happened. Because they did happen, they made me who I am now. This is where emotionality comes from - from the feeling of vulnerability and from desire to fit in and be happy.

[mies]

Im just asking?? Having just purchased a small kitten for the kids this weekend, do they speak to the cat in Russian or English? For that matter what language is the cat likely to understand?
its something that has just come to light!

as a proud owner of two American cats - I can say that cats do distinguish between languages. When I just adopted them - they did not understand a word in Russian! It was a challenge, we could not communicate too well, and our interactions weren't as meaningful as they are now. However, I intentionally didn't speak English to them, because I didn't want English speaking cats in my home, I wanted to be able to chat with them in my first language, also it is convenient if you want to tell a secret to a cat when English-speaking people are in the room. After a year of Russian lessons, cats became fluent in Russian, and now can communicate with me and react to all things I am telling them. At the same time, I think my cats still remember some English - I bring English-speaking guests regularly so that cats could practice their first (human) language comprehension skills.
So, basically, this is your choice. If you want your cats to understand you - you need to teach them your primary language. You can also develop bi-lingual skills in your cats 
My husband doesn't have a habit of speaking to cats, he interacts with them mostly through petting gestures or "ouch" sounds when they nib on him too hard. Hence, he doesn't mind Russian-speaking cats in his home.
 
To confuse a cat you will probably need to do more than just speak to them in two different languages. Maybe hire an expert team.

[Boethius]

So basically when I read stories like this one, I am wondering "what if I will end up in a situation like this one. How am I going resolve it? Would I be OK if my husband will not allow me to speak Russian to my young children? What else he will be controlling in my life?"

To be fair to Greg, mies, years ago, when Greg was writing about his wife before their problems, I read a post to my better half.  He said "Yeah, well, it won't last."  I was perplexed, as I didn't know how he could get that from a post.  What he meant was, he has seen many women like Greg's wife and her mother.  When I said Mama was a village teacher, he said "That confirms it." So, I don't think the language dispute was as big an issue as it has been chewed over here, in terms of their relations. 

Today as I had a bit of time before going to a meeting, I read some of the posts here to the better half.  He said "It was doomed from the beginning.  Be happy you never saw this in your life.  I saw it more than anyone should."  What he meant was, Greg was a means to an end.  That may be why Greg posted about hearing many stories similar to his own.

[steveboy]

as a proud owner of two American cats - I can say that cats do distinguish between languages. When I just adopted them - they did not understand a word in Russian! It was a challenge, we could not communicate too well, and our interactions weren't as meaningful as they are now. However, I intentionally didn't speak English to them, because I didn't want English speaking cats in my home, I wanted to be able to chat with them in my first language, also it is convenient if you want to tell a secret to a cat when English-speaking people are in the room. After a year of Russian lessons, cats became fluent in Russian, and now can communicate with me and react to all things I am telling them. At the same time, I think my cats still remember some English - I bring English-speaking guests regularly so that cats could practice their first (human) language comprehension skills.
So, basically, this is your choice. If you want your cats to understand you - you need to teach them your primary language. You can also develop bi-lingual skills in your cats 

Thanks!! That has cleared the matter up for me. But it is a point people need to think about! Its not just the family, it is the pet side of things as well. I think its best the pets learn some of both languages, just incase there is a divorce, or something worse happen, god forbid! I wouldn't want to be a cat in the US out on the street with only Russian language ability