Saved by Mila

[sleepycat]

It has been an eventful weekend to say the least...

Last Friday I went back to Kharkov for a WOVO trip to see a woman that I previously meet during my last trip in September.
After being taken to an apartment arranged by her, woman then left saying she had to go to work for a few hours on Saturday morning and will be back to see me after work. Around noon on Saturday I got a text from her saying that she got held up at work and will come later. The woman then dropped off the radar completely for the next 24 hours, not answering on Skype nor texting. By mid Sunday morning I was really starting to worry after being left there alone for more than a day, wondering if she had an accident or something like that. So I contacted Mila who I used on my previous trip to ask for help. Mila then revealed to me that the woman I had came to see was really a scam artist. As proof Mila had emailed me a link to a dating website picturing this woman with multiple scamming complaints against her. Mila must have phoned and warned this woman to leave me alone because within 10 minutes the woman started texting me with some BS story of how she had the flu and just got out of hospital and will be coming over immediately to speak to me. When she turned up I closed the door on her. She must have realised the game is up because she didn't try very hard to convince me otherwise. Then the apartment owner turned up. By that time I had already packed up all my luggage so I just paid the apartment owner for the two nights and got out of there. Mila and her husband arrived soon afterwards and took me to another apartment. I am scheduled in Kharkov for another 9 days so I'll try to salvage the rest of the trip by meeting some of Mila's ladies. I'm not sure what kind of mindset I will be in when meeting other ladies. Even though considering I only lost a little bit of money to the scam woman, it is still not a nice feeling to find out you have been played like that. But as the old saying goes...what doesn't kill you can only make you stronger.

On hindsight I am kicking myself for not see those little tell-tell signs from the scam woman. Things on hindsight that should at least raise a small red flag. Everyone probably thinks of themselves as really smart until they fell for it hook line and sinker.

Okay the damage to my wallet: probably paying $25 per night too much for an apartment for 2 nights, about $240 worth of gifts I gave her, 800 grivna that I gave her for travelling expenses, and probably overpaid for the taxi ride from the airport by about $20. All considering I think I got off pretty lightly money wise.

Now I probably would have wisen up to the scam a lot earlier if the woman had made requests for cash or gifts right from the beginning. But she played it conservatively, probably hoping to string me along for a while before starting to extract money from me. In the end this strategy proved to be her downfall, as she wasn't expecting me to contact Mila and discovering her scheme. I am so glad I didn't offer to give the whole 11 nights worth of rent to her when I first arrive at the apartment. I don't know why she didn't ask me in the beginning for the rent money to give to the apartment owner though, because that amount would have been over 800 US dollars. If I had lost that money it would have put a dent in my spending for the rest of my stay in Kharkov.

Anyway I better wrap this up. Mila if I haven't said this to you enough times already, once again thank you for saving me. You watched out for my interest as always and I will never forget this.

Okay enough venting. Now I feel somewhat better...

[Daveman]

So this was your second visit to see this woman?


I take it the first trip went well and you've been communicating since then?  What signs perhaps were there on the first trip that you ignored?


Good luck with salvaging your trip and at the very least, keep an open mind and have a good time.

[calmissile]

Sleepycat,  I fail to understand why men are so easlily hooked up with the scammers.  Having made many trips to Ukraine, and often for lengthy stays; I have yet to be scammed by anyone.  There is something wrong with the methods you are using to select women to meet, or your ability to detect the scammers is failing you.

There are thousands of posts here on the forum that offer advice on how to detect scammers very early.  Also, did you fully read the free E-Book on this forum?  I suspect that you have fallen into a trap that many others have.  You are out on a mission to find a woman on one trip and your eagerness is getting in the way of logical thinking.

I am glad Mila bailed you out.  Learn something from this experience and slow down!  While others may argue with my advice, I became a firm believer of having extensive communications on Skype before traveling to meet someone.  While it is not a perfect solution, you can sort out most of the potential scammers before you even get on a plane.  Even using Skype, it takes time to find out if someone is genuinely interested in you, or just taking you for a ride.

I don't know Mila, but in order to salvage your trip you might want to ask her for suggestions.  Your not in Ukraine at the best time of year for this kind of adventure, but make the best of it and try to see some of the country and try to meet and establish some friendships with the local people while you are there.  Once the ice is broken you will find Ukrainians to be wonderful, friendly people.  You don't need to (and should not) try to buy their friendship.  It is not necessary.

Chill out and enjoy the time you have left.  Many members will tell you that it is not common to find your future wife on the first trip.  As long as you spent the money to get there, try to enjoy the geography, culture, and people.

[JayH]

On hindsight I am kicking myself for not see those little tell-tell signs from the scam woman. Things on hindsight that should at least raise a small red flag. Everyone probably thinks of themselves as really smart until they fell for it hook line and sinker.

That is a point I keep making--it is not so easy when confronted by the reality of a situation anyone can find themselves in. Guys on forums seem to think everyone is a complete and utter incompetent when it happens to someone. Certainly red flags raised in your case.I always like to hear what price is being offered on apartment--- it is usually the easiest $ number to cross check  and can be early warning.
In what I think is mostly typical of guys in this situation--their good manners gives everyone the benefit of the doubt.
From day 1 of my personal expedition I have made all my own arrangements for the large majority of costs--but I have still paid more than fair and reasonable amounts at different times  for taxis/terps/meals/gifts/accommodation etc.

[jone]

Just make sure whoever you wind up with is not named Irina and wants you to do a remodel of her house.

[sleepycat]

So this was your second visit to see this woman?

I take it the first trip went well and you've been communicating since then?  What signs perhaps were there on the first trip that you ignored?

Yes this is the second time that I saw this woman. In September I was on a VM trip to Kharkov. She was one of the women that I met back then. During the September trip I had two dinner dates with her.

Because there were only two previous dinner dates, come to think of it I couldn't really think of any red flags that I missed.
Probably the small red flags appeared when I arrived back in Australia and started to communicate with her via phone calls and email.
At the time I don't know why I didn't pick up on the red flags.

1) There was a period of about 3 weeks where she was totally uncontactable via phone calls 24/7. When I finally managed to get through to her via phone later on, her explanation was her phone was broken and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't work. Probably during that time she was with another guy fleecing him so too busy to answer my calls. Stupidly I said I will buy her a new phone when I return this trip. She suggested that I buy a phone in Australia and bring it over. I know because Australian phones won't work in FSU even after changing the sim card, I said I will buy her the phone when I am back in Ukraine. Luckily I discovered her scam early enough and I didn't get a chance to actually buy her the new phone.

2) All her email replies were very short, usually less than a dozen words in total.

3) Now when I read back at her email replies, I can't help but cringe at seeing the number of times the words 'dear' and 'darling' were used. At the time I didn't really notice it, I just thought this was her way of writing.

4) The price for the apartment she said she was going to look for me increased from $70 in the beginning to $75 at the end. She kept using the phrase: 'I could look for cheaper but it will be of lower quality.' The apartment I ended up staying at was a studio apartment on Lenina Ave, no way was it worth $75 per night. I don't know if the apartment owner is in on the scam. Initially I refused to pay for the third night because when the apartment owner arrived the time was 12:20pm. In the end the apartment owner accepted 2 night's rent to get me out of there.

That's all I can think of at the moment...

[Gator]

Sleepycat,
 
As you said, "I got off pretty lightly money wise."  The lesson you learned is worth more than the money you wasted. 
 
Speaking of learning a lesson, ask yourself the following question:  Of all the women you met during the first trip, what compelled you to select this particular woman for a second trip, a WOVO trip? 
 
You should answer the question to assure that you do not repeat the same logic (or lack thereof).  The answer could not have been the intervening correspondence as each was less than a dozen words.  BTW, when adding up to a dozen words, did you exclude  "dear" and "darling?"
 
You do not need to tell us because we already have a good guess that is was physical.
 
I wish you better luck in your remaining 9 days.  You were smart and decisive to call Mila.

[southernX]

sleepycat,

so you have had a taste of being scammed , take it as a lesson , learn from it and examine where you slipped up /made up logical excuses for her

but dont get too paranoid from it ,

good thing is you had the gut instinct to suss it , and made the right call to mila

kharkiv is a great city , easy to find you way around , an apartment  of good quality is not hard to find at very good rates, we paid $650 for a 2 bedroom newly renovated place in the city centre for a month total , being married to a local helps though

use mila to help make some contacts while your still there , and as calmissile wrote, use skype as much as possible , you will learn lots about any lady with skype as much aspossible each day & week

phones are easy and cheap to buy there , anywhere , , so the bs about no contact was just that , aussie bought phones will work there btw, we take a cheap  $30 unlocked flip phone , stick a local sim card in with 100 grivna on it and walla !! no problems , dont use your own even if its on global roaming unless you have to , telstra are killers with charges lol

good luck , enjoy the rest of your stay, im sure you might have some success , lots of wonderful friendly people there ,
just relax and get out & about , dress like a local , see what comes your way
if you want a good feed at good prices try cafe norma on lennina av near nukhova metro station , id highly reccomend the salmon !!

even with cold weather , keep an open mind and positive attitude

best wishes SX

[XMan]

I visited Kharkov twice.  Though it's impossible to say which city is fraught with the most scammers since I have not visited every city in Ukraine, I would say Kharkov has to be near the top.  I had a great interpreter there (not Mila), made some good friends unrelated to MOB business, but honestly it was a huge waste of time and money.  Kiev is pretty much the same.  But I think that can be said for most of the large cities. 

Yes, there are men who have met sincere women, and married them, from those cities.  They are the unusually lucky ones.  Agency women in particular are a waste of time there.  Other methods are risky as well, though.  Regardless of e-mail, Skype, etc., you really have no clue as to what to expect because the person is still a stranger.  I had my own interpreter and brought her to meetings.  She was very shrewd, and often easily saw through the BS.  If you can go that route, and make all your own arrangements, you are better off, certainly.  But you are still most likely wasting your time, as you are searching in a city where a majority of the women who are on the various sites (agency or otherwise) are in no way sincere about finding a real relationship.  At best, they are interested in entertainment.  At worst, they are after as much as they can get out of you.

[southernX]

XMAN

that is a very jaded outlook if i might say so

Regardless of e-mail, Skype, etc., you really have no clue as to what to expect because the person is still a stranger.  I

of course there still a stranger,until you meet in person ,  but if you have no clue of what to expect from them , then you havent done your homework properly imho and should not be flying out to meet them

SX

[jone]

I visited Kharkov twice.  Though it's impossible to say which city is fraught with the most scammers since I have not visited every city in Ukraine, I would say Kharkov has to be near the top.  I had a great interpreter there (not Mila), made some good friends unrelated to MOB business, but honestly it was a huge waste of time and money.  Kiev is pretty much the same.  But I think that can be said for most of the large cities. 

Yes, there are men who have met sincere women, and married them, from those cities.  They are the unusually lucky ones.  Agency women in particular are a waste of time there.  Other methods are risky as well, though.  Regardless of e-mail, Skype, etc., you really have no clue as to what to expect because the person is still a stranger.  I had my own interpreter and brought her to meetings.  She was very shrewd, and often easily saw through the BS.  If you can go that route, and make all your own arrangements, you are better off, certainly.  But you are still most likely wasting your time, as you are searching in a city where a majority of the women who are on the various sites (agency or otherwise) are in no way sincere about finding a real relationship.  At best, they are interested in entertainment.  At worst, they are after as much as they can get out of you.

We just had a friend of ours come back from Kharkov with a very positive experience.  He also used Mila and found her to be very honest and direct in her evaluation of him and his prospective mates.  Having talked to him extensively after he got back, he said he was very pleased and will continue to reach out to two of the women he met there.

Unlike XMan, I had wonderful experiences in Kharkov.  If not for a difference in religious outlook, I would still be dating (and maybe married to) one of the women I met there.  Kharkov is a big city.  There are established ways to meet people  If you are looking for a model and are a putz, I can imagine that you will be taken advantage of.  Look in the mirror.  There are women for everyone.  But you need to be honest with yourself.

[2tallbill]

Mila has a good reputation so by all means use any contacts that she
can help you with.


I would take a very proactive approach. Make sure you have a local phone
you can buy a cheap on for $30. Create an account on Mamba, become a VIP
or premium member it will cost a few bucks but probably less than $20.
Have Mila advise you regarding your profile.


You will find thousands of girls who are not part of the MOB biz and speak
English. Write to at least 20 per day.


You will find plenty of dates to occupy your time. Take your dates on site
seeing trips if possible, UW are proud of their country and like showing
you around.


They will all ask you why did you come to Ukraine?


Answer "I came to meet a girl and it didn't work out". They don't want
or need a play by play. next "I went on the Mamba site and saw you and
I had to meet you" there is an excellent chance that you can find a girl on
this trip, keep positive


Udachi !


Bill

[mendeleyev]

Sleepycat,  I fail to understand why men are so easlily hooked up with the scammers.  Having made many trips to Ukraine, and often for lengthy stays; I have yet to be scammed by anyone.  There is something wrong with the methods you are using to select women to meet, or your ability to detect the scammers is failing you.

Well stated, Calm.

That being said I'm not sure where the scam was except in the disappearance from work and suggestion regarding a phone purchase prior to his visit. For a second visit it is hard to expect any guy to be an economist and have an educated grasp on the prices of local goods and services.

A guess, solely based on what has been reported here, is that she decided that she wasn't into him and didn't have the guts to tell him. Scammers don't disappear--falling off the radar is not the way to make money. Not having chemistry is not a scam and with all due respect to Mila, I don't believe about 950% of the scam stuff reported on scam sites.

Sleepcat, as Calm says, enjoy your time and meet some of Mila's ladies while you get out and about and enjoy Kharkiv. Having served once upon a time as the capital of Ukraine, it is a city with lots to see.

Oh, stay away from Jone's ex Irina unless you are a carpenter by trade. 

[sleepycat]

Hi mendy,

I have PM you the website link I got from Mila which convinced me the woman is a scam artist.

About her disappearance during Saturday/Sunday, I think she had another guy in town at that time to fleece and that's why she didn't come over to see me. In a way I am lucky that I was option number 2 for her, she didn't have time to fleece me before her game was discovered.

[Gator]

About her disappearance during Saturday/Sunday, I think she had another guy in town at that time to fleece and that's why she didn't come over to see me.

Maybe.  The actual reason does not matter.  If she were a proficient scammer, she would have found time (e. g. when in the toilet) to call you and give you a lame excuse that would string you along.
 
FORGET HER!    Focus all your thoughts on getting to know some sincere women in your remaining time in Kharkov.   BTW, I met three women from Kharkov, each genuinely sincere, and none hinted for gifts.  In fact, one darling (an artist) gave me one of her oil paintings - a sweet gift indeed.
 
 

In a way I am lucky that I was option number 2 for her, she didn't have time to fleece me before her game was discovered.

Don't worry about the money!   Petty thinking.  You were lucky for a more important reason -  not wasting any more of your limited time.     

[Gator]

Scammers don't disappear--falling off the radar is not the way to make money.

Agree, a proficient scammer would have called.
 
 

Not having chemistry is not a scam and with all due respect to Mila, I don't
believe about 950% of the scam stuff reported on scam sites.

However, two facts suggest she was not genuine:
 
1.  She met him in his previous trip so she should have had a good idea then regarding chemistry, etc.
2.  She corresponded with Sleepycat after the first trip and evidently she encouraged him to visit again, even arranging a "quality" apartment.

I believe a) she is not very clever and b) she welcomes if not encourages gifts from men for whom she has zero interest.

[jone]

That would make her a pro-dater.  Seemingly, having her gone for two weeks (or whatever) without communication suggests that she may take trips with men as well.  (What would that make her?)

[sleepycat]

Come to think of it, pro-dater is probably a better term to describe her.
I still don't know why she didn't ask me for the full 11 days rent when I first arrive at the apartment, thus ensuring her cut of the rent money from the apartment owner. I guess she wasn't expecting me to discover her scheme so early on.

[jone]

Oh, stay away from Jone's ex Irina unless you are a carpenter by trade. 

Ah, that would be Calmissile's ex.  Just yanking his chain abit.   

Actually Irina was/is a nice gal.  Once he bought her the scooter and started the addition on her home.  She, like the rest of us, wish Calmissile well in his new marriage.  - And she is available.  I am sure Cal would be happy to forward her phone number to the right guy.

[mendeleyev]

Sleepycat was kind enough to PM me with details and a link. I'll post a part of my reply here for educational purposes for other new guys.

However many guys set themselves up for negative outcomes and I'll give you a prime example: the charming brides folk say that a guy from the UK brought her an engagement ring. Poor chap hadn't done his homework because her culture doesn't give engagement rings. If she met and marred a guy from Ukraine or Russia she would have a wedding band, no engagement ring to go with it. It just isn't a "normal" part of getting married in her world.

So I find it hard to cry over the guy's loss because he just assumed that things were the same without really learning about what was expected.

The fact that CB suspects her still doesn't prove that she is a scammer and the fact that she didn't collect all the rent up front is a glaring evidence that she may not be one. Scammers don't fool around when it comes to money so by the time you're there to visit, you'll know quickly within a couple of days whether or not your wallet has been cleaned out.

Note: Charming Brides posted that they had removed her profile under suspicion but had no proof of her being a scammer.

I agree with Gator's assessment that it seems that she encourages gifts.

However the idea that she was meeting with another man isn't very practical for a scammer or pro-dater. It is difficult to fleece two and the rewards are smaller than concentrating on one at a time.

I do agree with his decision to move on but remain with my intuition that she wasn't interested after all. Even if a pro-dater there was no financial interest to be gained in avoiding him. Most RW/UW don't treat "second chance" guys that well ultimately--if you aren't first, move on.

[GQBlues]

It has been an eventful weekend to say the least...blah, blah, blah

....
Yes this is the second time that I saw this woman. In September I was on a VM trip to Kharkov. She was one of the women that I met back then. During the September trip I had two dinner dates with her.more blah, blah, blah...

First off, I've heard a lot of wonderful things about Mila, but never having used her services personally - I can't vouched for her integrity one way or another.

For the OP - let's see if I understand you correctly...that subject gal was one of the ladies you met and dated on your first trip (VM). You had 2 'good' dates with her.

You offered to buy her a phone unsolicited. You brought her gifts unsolicited, She never took your money for the entire tab on the apartment, etc...About the only 'crime' you *think* she's done with you was go on dates with you, disappear over a weekend (possibly dating another man or whatever), etc...

...and now you call her a scammer, then settled for calling her a pro-dater. What on gawd's green earth do guys like you really expect? You were a WMVM but expect these women to fall all over you guys on the basis of 2 dinner dates and when things don't go as 'expected', you automatically tag them either as scammer/s or a pro-dater/s.

Yeah, Mila may indeed have saved someone from your particular association with this gal - but methinks it wasn't you.

[Muzh]

...and now you call her a scammer, then settled for calling her a pro-dater. What on gawd's green earth do guys like you really expect? You were a WMVM but expect these women to fall all over you guys on the basis of 2 dinner dates and when things don't go as 'expected', you automatically tag them either as scammer/s or a pro-dater/s.

Well, first of all he traveled thousands of miles to rescue her from that dilapidated country called Ukraine.
 
The least she should do is show some gratitude.
 
 

[jone]

It is dilapidated.  But it is home.  Hey.

GQ, while the quality of your assessment is high, as always, I do believe that you have this slightly wrong.  The pro-dater network has become much more sophisticated since you were actively searching.  The new standard that is evolving is one that is simply showing men a good trip when they come to Ukraine without emotional involvement. 

For example:  I have a friend that went with a verified pro-dater.  She took him bowling.  Then she asked, directly to him how much the bowling had cost.  The lanes had forgotten to charge her add-on fee and she was very upset with the lanes for not getting her her share.  All-in-all, the guy had a good experience with the woman, but she was not there to do anything other than show him a good time.  You see, she was already married.

Now, I'm not saying the op's gal was married.  But I wouldn't be surprised if she sees her 'job' as entertaining Western Men as they come over to visit.  In the event that she actually finds someone that she can't live without, she'll possibly marry him.

This is the evolution of the MOB industry in Ukraine.  I would consider such a woman a pro-dater.  But I would also consider the op as slightly a Rube.  I have dated my fair share of FSU women.  You KNOW if a woman is into you.  And absent that feeling, you should look elsewhere.

[ML]

I always recommend casting  a wide net, doing a WMVM, etc.
I and others always recommend that the man NOT let the woman rent the apartment, etc.

However,  those rules are for the first visit.

Since Sleepy was on the SECOND visit where he would spend time with this gal,  those rules go out the window.

So here, the question becomes one of 'during the time he was back  home communicating with this gal, did he correctly interpret her degree of interest and see or miss any red flags?'

Myself, I would never go back on a WOVO visit to a gal I had previously met . . . if there hadn't been some serious sex involved on the first visit (but this doesn't apply to the many here who dated and married virgins) along with some serious talk about the next visit, assurances about definite time off from work, some interaction with some of her family and friends, etc.

Otherwise the gal should just be one of many on a future WMVM second visit to her city.

On a properly planned and executed WMVM trip, one cannot be scammed and, if any pro-dater slips through the screening process, she will only get one date.

[GQBlues]

Jone-

I understand your point, I just don't subscribe to it. It may well be that is the new norm in the MOB to some degree but there's this persistent underlying point in all of these...

I don't believe that pro-dating sophistication in Ukraine had evolved more than any other places in the world where conning and hustling are prime and widely practiced in such places as LA, NY, Paris, etc...that's always been present.

The point I was saying was...

1. The guy was on his WMVM his first trip when he first met the gal. He was meeting/dating multiple women his first trip. So what's wrong with this woman meeting/dating multiple men? After 2 dinner dates, with little and limited ensuing correspondence after, what made him convince she should only be seeing and dating him? Where they exclusive after 2 dinner dates? He never said she committed to being 'exclusive' with him.

2. He was the one who offered 'things', like the phone, unsolicited to the gal. Men often times come bearing gifts - or - subscribe to the silly belief that they must *give other evidences of the feelings* because:

a) that's how it is in the FSU or be called 'greedy'; or
b) men have nothing left to offer but the one thing they hope believe raises their social *value* and chances with these women...then complain in they don't fawn all over them. When things don't go as they expected - they blame the women.

3. One of the reasons the OP gave as to why he felt she's untrustworthy, and thus deserved his accusation was, the 'apartment' she reserved for him for his travel was *$25.00* MORE than it should have been - DESPITE the fact she didn't even get monies from him. $25.00/day and that is one of his focal reason why she's a scammer.

Christ...reserve your own freakin' apartment yourself!

IMO, to me, this have nothing whatsoever to do with the dating norm today, yesterday or tomorrow - Ukraine or Timbukto. This have LARGELY to do with the general pursuers' obvious lack of social awareness and grace. I'm not firing at the OP specifically, but largely believes these men are socially clueless to begin with.

These aren't children or adolescent who haven't had life's experiences Jone. These are (for the most part) grown men and many of them are old enough to be great-grandfathers.