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Author Topic: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis  (Read 5776 times)

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Online Faux Pas

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Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
« Reply #100 on: December 18, 2013, 03:57:04 PM »
mendy, I believe it diminishes you to maintain the refrain that Obama is stupid.  You may not agree with his policies, you may believe he has a poor team around him, and that he is ineffective, but he is not stupid.

Boe I believe Obama to be in fact, the stupid man in the suit. The man hasn't a clue. It pains me to say that because the fact that he is indeed that stupid ultimately means some other unelected entity is calling the shots
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

Mark Twain

Online lordtiberius

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Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
« Reply #101 on: December 18, 2013, 06:06:31 PM »
When Ronald Reagan assured Mr. Gorbachev that the US and NATO would never expand Eastward beyond the unification of Germany, and when that promise was repeated to President Yeltsin by Bush I,  . . .

Even if you believe that Amercia should not check or confront Russia or more specifically Putinism, which I do not subscribe, this is an unfair criticism because it is inaccurate.

The Berlin Wall fell in 1989.  Reagan was out of office and he has been dead a number of years.  You say that HW Bush or Bush I did a good job stewarding Russo-American relations.  So who do we have?  Clinton, W Bush and Obama.  You lump these men together when in fact they are all very different and had very different approaches, different realities, different priorities and most importantly different leaders to contend with.  The Obama-Medvedev relationship was quite cozy as was the W. Bush and Putin relationship prior to the Orange Revolution.

But what is missing in this analysis is the re-emergence of Poland as a partner with Germany and France in the EU.  The EU is becoming a third force in US-Russia relations.  Most the hawkish sentiments are not coming out of neocon think tanks like Heritage or the Rand Corporation but from Russia's sparing partners from the 16th, 17th and 18th century - Poland, Germany, Sweden, Lithuania and lest we forget the Ukrainian diaspora in Canada.  The anti EU feeling in the UK has chilled the normally boisterous British foreign office.

The problem for Mr. Putin and all totalitarians is that you cannot bribe and bully everybody and get away with it with no consequences.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 10:53:25 PM by lordtiberius »

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Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
« Reply #102 on: December 18, 2013, 07:14:09 PM »
Correct, I was addressing Bo.

I am the one who says, confidently and without apology, that he is equally ill-fitted for the job and stupid.

+1  Stupid and incompetent!!!
Doug (Calmissile)

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Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
« Reply #102 on: December 18, 2013, 07:14:09 PM »

Offline mendeleyev

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Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
« Reply #103 on: December 19, 2013, 02:12:33 AM »
Quote
Even if you believe that Amercia should not check or confront Russia or more specifically Putinism, which I do not subscribe, this is an unfair criticism because it is inaccurate.

The Berlin Wall fell in 1989.  Reagan was out of office and he has been dead a number of years.

It is not inaccurate in the least. Were you aware of the diplomacy between Reagan and Gorbachev? Who was it exactly who said, "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" You aren't under the impression that all those events leading up to the collapse of the Soviet system came without behind the scenes diplomacy, now did you?   :)

I might suggest that my friend get out a calendar and mark the day of 5 June 2004. That was the day that President Reagan died.

Next find 9 November 1989. That was the date the Berlin wall fell.

Now find 19-21 August  of 1991, the 3 day coup against Gorbachev which ultimately led to the dissolution of the Soviet Union. Bush I was president and he infuriated many in Congress by wisely choosing restraint against immediately recognizing the independence of the Baltic states. He knew that their independence would stand but he was also determined to live by the terms which Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan had worked to encourage Mikhail Gorbachev. Had Gorbachev not had our assurances, he'd of never moved forward with the Belavezha Accords.

I understand that you chaff at the chance to punch Mr. Putin in the jaw--both of us were indoctrinated steeply in anti Soviet thinking, much of which was correct. Times have changed my friend. Relax and put away those nuke codes--they wouldn't be necessary if our side showed some respect and wasn't always rushing into to fight at the slightest hint of a disagreement.  :)


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Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
« Reply #104 on: December 19, 2013, 03:26:05 AM »
Now find 19-21 August  of 1991, the 3 day coup against Gorbachev which ultimately led to the dissolution of the Soviet Union. Bush I was president and he infuriated many in Congress by wisely choosing restraint against immediately recognizing the independence of the Baltic states.

Perhaps we should recall our Ambassadors from the Baltics and negotiate with them only through the Kremlin to honor the spirit of this interpretation of Reagan.


all they did was change the lyrics    :rolleyes:

It is not inaccurate in the least.

Clinton, HW Bush, Obama and W Bush - 4 different presidents and 4 different approaches to Russia.

1) Obama - let's address Obama first because he is the least American, most incompetent of the 4 and most Stalinist president in history.  So its easy to differentiate his approach and dismiss it.  He wants a nuclear free America.  He sent negotiators to Russia to affect this.  He doesn't care if the Russians cheat in nuclear disarmament. he tried the re-set several times.  Putin loathes him but Medvedev got along with him fine.  The lack of diplomatic progress in pursing Russian national interest are solely because of Putin.  Putin has placed his own personal pleasure at humiliating our President - a traitor, a coke addict and closet homosexual.  Russia had more diplomatic success  in pursing Russian national interest with Medvedev and you know it.

2) HW Bush - you praise him but you don't differentiate or frankly praise him enough for pursuing policies - that I personally disagree with but that you liked.



3) W Bush - you have to appraise W Bush before and after the Orange Revolution and through the lens on Condi Rice - a former Sovietologist who has botched everything she has put her hands on.  Before the Orange Revolution, W and Putin had a great relationship.  Putins' way of regarding every political enemy as a terrorist as well as Putin's support for Central Asian dictators disconcerted W Bush.  After the Orange Revolution, the animosity was open but W couldn't operate because of his failures to affect political and military victories in Iraq and political and military progress in Afghanistan and Pakistan.  He abandoned Musharraff in Pakistan and couldn't respond to the Georgian war which he was responsible for in part for provoking.

4) Of the 4 presidents, Clinton had the most leverage and had the most impact.  He dealt with Yeltsin mostly.  He is responsible for the expansion of NATO, the EU and the response in the Balkans which we abdicated our foreign policy to the Saudis.  The loss of life and the genocide that he did mostly nothing about  is something I strongly object to as an American.  Your lack of critical analysis on the Clinton years and silence on Yeltsin who was president of Russia btw, diminishes your argument.

I understand that you chaff at the chance to punch Mr. Putin in the jaw

I don't trust Vladimir Vladimirovich.

Putin has done a lot of things that I admire.  I don't necessarily object to his pursuit of a string Russia policy especially in central Asia as a check against Islamic fundamentalism and Chinese commercial colonization.  One can admire an adversary though continue to oppose him.


For instance, I see Barack Obama as a greater threat to US security than I do Putin.  I admire Putin more than I do former President Bill Clinton, because  former President Bill Clinton is not and has never been a man of honor.




I oppose Putin and Putinism because he is not a democrat, he imprisons and sometimes kills people he disagrees with.  He has re-established Brezhnev-Stalinist corruption that Gorbachev and Yeltsin tried to dismantle.  He says he is an opponent of Oligarchs but his combat of Oligarchy has manifested itself in him becoming the biggest Oligarch.  He failed to save the Kursk sailors in compartments 08 & 09, he carried out false flag attacks on his country to whip up anti-Chechen feeling for another war, he killed Litvinenko, Politkovskaya and 26 journalists and counting.  He has slandered, robbed and imprisoned Khordovkovsky.  He has imprisoned Pussy Riot.  Look at what he did to Medvedev, Luzhkov and what he is doing to Navalny.  I am not a fan of most of these people especially Pussy Riot or Luzhkov  who has destroyed most of Moscow.  But what I do want is the rule of law to be applied to everyone and freedom of speech - the freedom to rationally follow one's conscience.   



If you think that Putinism is just a domestic threat, ask that same question to a Georgian, a Chechen, a Belarussian democrat or a Ukrainian.



China threatens our regional interests in Asia.  We can compete with them on the world stage everywhere else because when asked an African, Asian or European all things equal, would you rather do business with an American firm or a Chinese firm, they want to do business with us.  China controls a lot of US policy through lobbying, corruption and undue influence.  If I were a Putinist, I would call that meddling.  But as a democrat, I'd call that part of the civic discourse and can easily overcome that with education, advocacy and paying off our national debt.


Putin not Russia is our greatest geopolitical threat.

Offline mendeleyev

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Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
« Reply #105 on: December 19, 2013, 03:30:38 AM »
Then the Russians are right: we do not keep our word and lie/change when we find it convenient.

Is that our most honourable position?
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Online lordtiberius

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Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
« Reply #106 on: December 19, 2013, 03:38:14 AM »
Alexander Solzhenitsyn is the greatest Russian writer and thinker in the 20th century.  You wouldn't know that in Russia today.  But don't worry.   You wouldn't know that in America either.

Keep your hands on the football.

Offline Anotherkiwi

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Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
« Reply #107 on: December 19, 2013, 03:58:53 AM »
1) Obama - let's address Obama first because he is the least American, most incompetent of the 4 and most Stalinist president in history. ...  Putin has placed his own personal pleasure at humiliating our President - a traitor, a coke addict and closet homosexual. 

lordtiberius, what's this "least American" rubbish?  He was born in the USA, just like the other Presidents you name, so he's as American as you.  One of his parents was born outside the USA, the same as you.  Does that make you any less American than (for example) Faux Pas, LAMan or Chicagoguy?  What about GQBlues?  He might be an American citizen now, but he was born in another country and (gasp!) spoke only a couple of words of English when he first set foot in the USA.  Doesn't that makes him even less of an American than anyone else?

Your anti-Obama ravings are beyond tiresome to anyone outside the Republicans on this forum.  Do you have ANY proof of any of the things which you allege above?  If not, try another tack, because I wasn't aware that your First Amendment rights of free speech cover defamation, however sincerely you may hold your peculiar beliefs.  Some of what you post is occasionally interesting, although less so now than a year ago - most appears to be arrant nonsense.  What next - Obama was behind 9/11, or was actually one of the Boston bombers?

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Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
« Reply #108 on: December 19, 2013, 09:34:01 AM »
If you like Obama that much, you are free to vote for him in elections in your country.  I understand that he is just right of Helen Clark.  I am sure he would welcome the change as it would lighten the already rigorous work load he is engaged in.  You are free to tell yourself whatever you want but I wouldn't expect much hope or change from you new leader. 

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Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
« Reply #109 on: December 19, 2013, 09:39:45 AM »
lordtiberius, what's this "least American" rubbish?  He was born in the USA, just like the other Presidents you name, so he's as American as you.

Actually, it started because he is a nigr. And then it went downhill from there. It didn't help that the POTUS is a narcissistic scumbag.
"Mr Putin is discovering that global finance is more frightened of the US Securities and Exchange Commission than Russian T90 tanks."

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Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
« Reply #110 on: December 19, 2013, 10:27:13 AM »
I know that folks on the left accuse us on the right of being racists and no attempts of saying "we don't beat our wives"  measure up with any credibility with for these same folks.  I don't approve of the Ryan-Murray budget deal, but it is proof that bipartisanship is possible in DC.  The fact is the President's main allies are on the right.  I think Boehner, Ryan and McCain would LOVE to do deals with the first black President, but like Putin, his pride cuts his nose to spite his face.

 :offtopic:, you and I are getting screwed by Ryan-Murray

Offline Boethius

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Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
« Reply #111 on: December 19, 2013, 01:01:16 PM »
Alexander Solzhenitsyn is the greatest Russian writer and thinker in the 20th century.  You wouldn't know that in Russia today.  But don't worry.   You wouldn't know that in America either.

Keep your hands on the football.


You do know, when anti Semitism raised its head again in Russia, that his solution was for Jews to leave, right?  He stated, roughly translated, "No Jews, no problem."  He also advocated, before the collapse of the USSR, that the Republics be "released" and a "pan Slavic unity" be created among Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus. 


Solzhenitsyn's works are written at a very simple level.  He doesn't complete with 20th century Russian writers such as Bulgakov, Nabokov, Sholokov (or whoever actually wrote And Quiet Flows the Don), or, of course, Tolstoy who, although primarily identified as a 19th century writer, wrote into the 20th century.


As for intellectuals, Berdyaev and Kapitsa were intellectual giants in a way Solzhenitsyn never was.

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Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
« Reply #112 on: December 19, 2013, 03:15:28 PM »

You do know, when anti Semitism raised its head again in Russia, that his solution was for Jews to leave, right?  He stated, roughly translated, "No Jews, no problem."  He also advocated, before the collapse of the USSR, that the Republics be "released" and a "pan Slavic unity" be created among Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus. 


Solzhenitsyn's works are written at a very simple level.  He doesn't complete with 20th century Russian writers such as Bulgakov, Nabokov, Sholokov (or whoever actually wrote And Quiet Flows the Don), or, of course, Tolstoy who, although primarily identified as a 19th century writer, wrote into the 20th century.


As for intellectuals, Berdyaev and Kapitsa were intellectual giants in a way Solzhenitsyn never was.

How many of the writers you mentioned have been to the gulag?  How many of those writers you mentioned fought in World War II and won commendations for bravery?  How can you esteem Solzhenitsyn so poorly when you have never read the escape attempts of Grigori Tenno, the Hungarian youth in captivity and the man who told the secret history of the gulag uprisings?

It would be nice for once if one would actually substantiate what one believes with facts that support one's argument.  Even the pope does that. No one likes a know it all or a ninny especially a know it all who is consistently wrong it all.

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Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
« Reply #112 on: December 19, 2013, 03:15:28 PM »

Offline Boethius

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Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
« Reply #113 on: December 19, 2013, 03:33:19 PM »
How many of the writers you mentioned have been to the gulag?  How many of those writers you mentioned fought in World War II and won commendations for bravery?  How can you esteem Solzhenitsyn so poorly when you have never read the escape attempts of Grigori Tenno, the Hungarian youth in captivity and the man who told the secret history of the gulag uprisings?

Being in a gulag or being a Red Army soldier does not make one a great literary figure, nor an intellectual. If is did, there would be millions of Soviet citizens who would qualify.  What Solzhenitsyn wrote was important to the West, but so well known as to be banal in the USSR. 

It would have been difficult for Bulgakov to have served in WWII, since he died before Operation Barbarossa.  He did volunteer with the Red Cross in WWI, as he was a trained physician, and he served, and was injured, at the front.  That injury is likely what lead to his later morphine addiction.

Sholokhov was older.  He fought with the Bolsheviks as a 13 year old during the Civil War.  He worked as a correspondent, covering the Soviet war effort, during WWII.  His mother was killed during the war.

Tolstoy's later life pacifism is well documented.  Surely you are not comparing the literary works of Solzhenitsyn with those of Tolstoy?

Berdyaev was a Marxist, who was twice questioned by the Bolsheviks once in power, and never backed down from his ideas.  He was exiled by them.

Kapitsa returned to the USSR from abroad.  He told Beria that Beria had no understanding of science.  For that, Beria wanted Kapitsa executed, but Stalin intervened.  So, I think on a bravery scale, he was no slouch.  His discoveries were ground breaking in the world of physics. 
Quote
It would be nice for once if one would actually substantiate what one believes with facts that support one's argument.  Even the pope does that. No one likes a know it all or a ninny especially a know it all who is consistently wrong it all.

Yes, I agree.  It would be nice if you supported your arguments with facts. :)   I would hazard a guess that before you sought a UW, you knew little of Ukraine's politics or culture.  I commend you for your reading, but it is still a little limited.

When I was learning Russian, I read the works of Solzhenitsyn as the language and ideas presented were  simple and easy to read.  There really is no deep thinking required to access Solzhenitsyn's works.  I cannot say the same about Dostoyevsky or Bulgakov.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2013, 03:49:37 PM by Boethius »

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Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
« Reply #114 on: December 19, 2013, 05:28:17 PM »
de gustibus non est disputandum

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Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
« Reply #115 on: December 19, 2013, 05:43:35 PM »
True, and if you view Solzhenitsyn as a great writer, that is your right.  I don't deny that.  I just disagree.   Important?  Yes, absolutely.




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Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
« Reply #116 on: December 19, 2013, 06:09:26 PM »
You are a smart lady.  I am going to check out the writers you have cited.  I accept your critique of my view of Ukrainian, Russian or Slavic politics and culture as being limited.  And whatever grudges you bear against me, you cannot say that I do not esteem your grasp of  politics, culture and human nature.



I really like Solzhenitsyn.  I like Bulgakov too.  Bulgakov as a satirist and a story teller built this amazing world that I didn't want to end.  Bulgakov is a better narrative fiction writer than Solzhenitsyn.  But Solzhenitsyn told the truth and told many stories about people whom suffered these horrible and unjust fates. Dostoevsky and Tolstoy like Pushkin were 19th century thinkers though they prophesied about Stalin.  Bulgakov and Solzhenitsyn suffered under Stalin.  Solzhenitsyn gave Russia and the world a prescription on how to heal from Stalinism.  We still haven't followed it and Stalinism is relevant in our world today.


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Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
« Reply #117 on: December 19, 2013, 06:46:35 PM »
I bear no grudge against you, LT.

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Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
« Reply #118 on: December 19, 2013, 08:54:11 PM »
   I would hazard a guess that before you sought a UW, you knew little of Ukraine's politics or culture.  I commend you for your reading, but it is still a little limited.


MrsB  that is probably true of almost everyone. LT has done a very fair job of educating himself on the topic and should be commended for it-- regardless of  conclusions of what is "right" and "wrong".
If every guy on the forum took as serious and interest the world would be a better place !! :)
GLORY TO UKRAINE !!!

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Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
« Reply #119 on: December 19, 2013, 08:57:25 PM »
I have said a lot of messed up things - some of them were to you. You accused me of trolling.  It's true and what I have said and did is wrong.  I said these things in a public forum. I should apologize in public forum.  I apologize.  You have a right to reject my apology, question its sincerity or demand it formed to your liking.  I accede to your demands.

You know a lot about Ukrainian, Russian and Soviet culture, politics and history.  You are apart of that great Ukrainian Canadian diaspora that is influencing events overseas.  I personally have benefitted from your wisdom as have others.

Solzhenitsyn accused Sholokhov of plagiarism.  And the criticisms against Pasternak as a collaborator seem more valid for Sholokhov.  You have read them and have suffered at the hands of these people.  Does  Sholokhov have a consistent voice?  Is he a collaborator?  What about his work inspires you to regard him as aesthetically superior to Solzhenitsyn?

Thank you in advance.

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Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
« Reply #120 on: December 20, 2013, 05:51:40 PM »
Quote
You accused me of trolling.  It's true and what I have said and did is wrong.  I said these things in a public forum. I should apologize in public forum.  I apologize. 

Everyone posts something they later regret.  Yours were not the worst forms of trolling, nor even close the worst posted to me, so there is no need to apologize, but I appreciate it nevertheless.

Quote
Solzhenitsyn accused Sholokhov of plagiarism.  And the criticisms against Pasternak as a collaborator seem more valid for Sholokhov.  You have read them and have suffered at the hands of these people.  Does  Sholokhov have a consistent voice?  Is he a collaborator?  What about his work inspires you to regard him as aesthetically superior to Solzhenitsyn?

Others also accused Sholokhov of plagiarism.  The better half believes And Quiet Flows the Don was written by a real Cossack officer, confiscated, and sold as Sholokhov's work.  This was a common occurrence in the USSR.  Works of academics and artists, who were either dead, killed by the Bolsheviks, or marginalized, often had their works confiscated and given to the "tested and true".

In the 1980's, a Norwegian mathematician claimed to have developed a computer programme which proved Sholokhov wrote the novel.  Since that time, unpublished chapters of the manuscript have also been found, in Sholokhov's handwriting.  I don't know what the answer is.

I have read And Quiet Flows the Don in English only.  But the depth and complexity of the characters and the portrayal of their life is more refined than Solzhenitsyn's works.  As I posted, Solzhenitsyn's language is quite simple.  But, as I have not read the former in Russian, I can't make a comparison on that point.

Sholokhov was a committed Bolshevik.  So, he was part of the "system" from the very beginning.  Pasternak did lure others back from exile, knowing they would be executed.  I don't know if he regretted that later, but it was on his soul.

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Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
« Reply #121 on: December 22, 2013, 01:40:00 PM »
huge Euromaidan rally in Dniperpratrosk
http://www.radiosvoboda.org/media/video/25208978.html

 

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