Exploitation: Real, imagined, or deliberately disingenuous?

[Boethius]

Au contraire.. the children have not the choice... they do not have free will.. load up and try again...

Most of those children, when emancipated from those lives, usually as teens, return right back to the brothels.

[jone]

Bo,

I honestly think that more plays into the equation than economic disparity.

This morning I have the great pleasure of sitting here at my breakfast table with five women from Eastern Europe.  They range in age from early 20's to young thirties.  They were guests in my home last night and we just completed a 25 mile bike ride to start the morning.  I proposed to these women your hypothesis.  To a woman, they all disagree with you.  They came to the US because of economic disparity.  They will marry because of choice.

I should first point out that three of the women that are here have Resident Alien Cards.  Two are here on visas.  Four are from Belarus.  One is from Russia.  I have known two of these women for four years.  The rest I have met within the past year.

Olga Y. - Aged thirty two:  "I have known men since I was young.  The average guy who is my age has no desire to live the type of lifestyle that I see for my family.  My father left my mother for a younger women when I was 12, so I don't think that men are clear in what they want out of life until a later age.

Olga M.  - Age twenty six:  "I hope to marry someone in their forties.  That way we can get started on our family right away.  I don't need to wait for him to establish himself in a job."

Dasha - Age twenty eight:  "My sister married a guy who is 18 years older than she is.  They are very happy."

Now, I am paraphrasing.  But in each case, these ladies have a livelihood or visa status here in California. Since they already live here, economic disparity is no more a part of their equation than that of a native Californian.  I should point out that one of the Olgas' sister is married to a guy who is over 20 years her senior.

[fathertime]

I am pointing to the ridiculousness of the argument of equality.

Equating a 6 year old Cambodian that was forced into child prostitution, has nothing to do with 2 adults that are choosing to commence a relationship.   These extreme examples you site only serve to detract from whatever legitimate point you were going to try to make.


 In addition it waters down the term 'exploitation'.  If we are going to overuse the term 'exploited' then I 'exploited' a kid this week because I paid him to deliver my newspaper.  I knew he need a few cents so I made him throw the newspaper on my porch, and I force him to do the same if it is raining or windy outside.  I guess I should hang my head in shame because I'm an 'exploiter' of children. 


Fathertime!   

[alex330]

They came to the US because of economic disparity.  They will marry because of choice.

This is what I am seeing here locally among the women as well. They arrive on a VISA of some sort and marry a man they are attracted to. Some of the marriages are questionable, but there is no way of knowing which person is the one who is truly being taken advantage of. It is a two way street.

[GQBlues]

We oftentimes find ourselves discussing this very subject once and again. We explore reasons why disparities in these lovely couples to be more pronounced compared to the rigid, societal structured perception our generations had dictated upon all of us.

We need to remind ourselves in the eyes of love, everything is equal. I do not see any of the noted advantages so many of you speak off when you consider that it's far more challenging to have to cross borders, learn new languages and learn new cultures and societal norm - all for the sake of 'love' and being 'love'.

I strongly believe that to declare 'love' to someone living nearby, down the block, the next city; is far shallower and meaningless than it is to invest in the aforementioned challenges cited above.

If I wanted to take advantage of an unsuspecting woman for companionship, is it not much more advantageous fo me to do so with a woman within arm's reach? How noble can that be?

It is high time for all of us to gather together and show the true strength in our belief that happiness is found not always in beaten paths most everyone settle for, but in journeys few brave to follow. I would like to believe the men such as myself, chose to find my 'one', through a journey filled with uncertainty, obstacle and challenges to be a much more noble way to show doubters the length I will go in life to seek out and find the only woman in this world I can honestly call my soul mate.

Economic disparity? Exploitation? I don't think so...I did not devote so much of myself just so I can exploit anyone. I have decided in the past, after endless years of yearning yet finding no one; that I shall strive to achieve what I treasure the most, in the arms of a pragmatic woman who will love and devote herself unconditionally only to me. One who understands I do not need be 'perfect' for her to see what true love is.

Many ask, why then have to go to poorer regions of our world? To this I say to them...

'The brightest diamonds were once a coal. Nurtured with blessed patience it will shine upon your life forever'

[fathertime]

Dasha - Age twenty eight:  "My sister married a guy who is 18 years older than she is.  They are very happy."

Now, I am paraphrasing.  But in each case, these ladies have a livelihood or visa status here in California. Since they already live here, economic disparity is no more a part of their equation than that of a native Californian.  I should point out that one of the Olgas' sister is married to a guy who is over 20 years her senior.

Hey Jone!  Sounds like a productive morning on the bicycles.  Perfect day for a morning ride here in LA, especially with a bunch of babes! 


For whatever reason, some people insist that  a 15-25 year age gap automatically means some sort of illicit activity or coercion is going on in these marriages/relationships.  I would say that in many cases a lady actually enjoys the perceived/actual stability/loyalty of an older man, and that isn't that novel an idea is it? especially if their younger lives were tumultuous or unstable. 


Fathertime! 

[Daveman]

I am not posting that women should not be marrying, just that the stories of "true love", "we found each other against all odds", blah, blah, blah are, more often than not, wishful thinking rather than reality.  Call a spade a spade, which is that women would not be marrying men far older than themselves who are "below" their league were it not for that economic disparity.

Coming back to this because this is a very important distinction... I agree with everything, wholeheartedly even, up to and including the part in bold. 

Yes, let's call a spade a spade - this is a barter system.  It is a trade. It is free trade. It is a fair, mutually advantageous trade.  Some of the couples "look" funky together. That creates negative emotions in some people. That negative emotion generates prejudice.  The pre-judging is that the man is engaging in exploitation.

If the woman is marrying someone "below her league" then, by the rules of equality, she must be using her higher league status for the purpose of exploitation.


Reiterating:

• there is no meanness
• there is no unfairness
• it is mutually advantageous
• the arrangement is agreed upon and entered into under free will

[Boethius]

We oftentimes find ourselves discussing this very subject once and again. We explore reasons why disparities in these lovely couples to be more pronounced compared to the rigid, societal structured perception our generations had dictated upon all of us.We need to remind ourselves in the eyes of love, everything is equal. I do not see any of the noted advantages so many of you speak off when you consider that it's far more challenging to have to cross borders, learn new languages and learn new cultures and societal norm - all for the sake of 'love' and being 'love'.I strongly believe that to declare 'love' to someone living nearby, down the block, the next city; is far shallower and meaningless than it is to invest in the aforementioned challenges cited above.If I wanted to take advantage of an unsuspecting woman for companionship, is it not much more advantageous fo me to do so with a woman within arm's reach? How noble can that be?It is high time for all of us to gather together and show the true strength in our belief that happiness is found not always in beaten paths most everyone settle for, but in journeys few brave to follow. I would like to believe the men such as myself, chose to find my 'one', through a journey filled with uncertainty, obstacle and challenges to be a much more noble way to show doubters the length I will go in life to seek out and find the only woman in this world I can honestly call my soul mate.Economic disparity? Exploitation? I don't think so...I did not devote so much of myself just so I can exploit anyone. I have decided in the past, after endless years of yearning yet finding no one; that I shall strive to achieve what I treasure the most, in the arms of a pragmatic woman who will love and devote herself unconditionally only to me. One who understands I do not need be 'perfect' for her to see what true love is.Many ask, why then have to go to poorer regions of our world? To this I say to them...'The brightest diamonds were once a coal. Nurtured with blessed patience it will shine upon your life forever'

Wow, GQ.  I had never considered the issue from the above perspective.   

Having now contemplated deeply your assertion that the depth of love which can be discovered only by those souls brave enough to move off the beaten track, to countries in which real women, possessing ranges of depth and emotion that no longer exist in the feminazi West, I truly understand the error of my former views.

Thank you, once again, for pointing me to truth and enlightenment.  I shall be forever in your debt, and my gratitude is limitless.

[GQBlues]

...For whatever reason, some people insist that  a 15-25 year age gap automatically means some sort of illicit activity or coercion is going on in these marriages/relationships.  I would say that in many cases a lady actually enjoys the perceived/actual stability/loyalty of an older man, and that isn't that novel an idea is it? especially if their younger lives were tumultuous or unstable....

+1000

[Slumba]

Hmm, I am not so certain that, when I married, there was a huge economic disparity, at least, not for the average Soviet citizen vs the average Westerner.  That could be true from a GDP perspective, however, Soviet citizens had guaranteed employment (in theory, and in practice for the "working class"), free housing, free medical care, free education, subsidized transportation, subsidized food, even subsidized vacations.  The issue was not economics, but rather, lack of freedom. 

I take it you have never lived in a state where you had few options to better your station in life.

A woman uses her youth and beauty to better her situation.  Yes, she is making the decision "freely", but it is "freely" given the cards she has been dealt in life - to live in a destroyed country, with economic and political uncertainty, where upwards of 80% of the population, in polls, express a desire to emigrate. 

I am not posting that women should not be marrying, just that the stories of "true love", "we found each other against all odds", blah, blah, blah are, more often than not, wishful thinking rather than reality.  Call a spade a spade, which is that women would not be marrying men far older than themselves who are "below" their league were it not for that economic disparity.

I think you are looking back over the Soviet times with rose-colored glasses... just look at the difference in sqare feet or meters of living space per person, in the West vs. Soviet Russia, as one example.  People were still living in communalkas during the time you mentioned, piled up on one another, am I correct?

I think you are wrong when you talk about "below their league" in that a man is always seen as a better catch if he has money or power or charisma; while a powerful or rich woman, is not judged the same way - for women, youth, beauty, fertility etc. is more important.

It is why Henry Kissinger (an incompetent fraud and war criminal, in addition to not being handsome) has slept with many more beautiful women than I have, or will... meanwhile the rich and powerful Hillary Clinton is not getting the hot guys or girls  (while her $expletive-deleted husband can if he so chooses).

[GQBlues]

Wow, GQ.  I had never considered the issue from the above perspective.   

Having now contemplated deeply your assertion that the depth of love which can be discovered only find by those souls brave enough to move off the beaten track, to countries in which real women, possessing a range of depth and emotion that no longer exists in the feminazi West, I truly understand the error of my former vviews.

Thank you, once again, for pointing me to the truth.  I shall be forever in your debt, and my gratitude is limitless.

These are wonderful words, Boethius! I do hope I was able to provide a small step to your enlightenment.

I had recently found myself too in the words of a 13th century Persian poet, Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad Rūmī, which I would love to share with you one of his gift to us all...

"Out beyond the ideas of right-doing or wrong-doing there is a field- I'll meet you there."

[Daveman]

Wow, GQ.  I had never considered the issue from the above perspective.   

Having now contemplated deeply your assertion that the depth of love which can be discovered only find by those souls brave enough to move off the beaten track, to countries in which real women, possessing a range of depth and emotion that no longer exists in the feminazi West, I truly understand the error of my former vviews.

Thank you, once again, for pointing me to the truth.  I shall be forever in your debt, and my gratitude is limitless.

LOL.. proving the absurdity of the justifications is easy - as easy shootin' rednecks at a wraslin convention...

However, proving the guy has more money, is older, is fat, is ugly, is self delusional, is a social reject, even looks like a dip sticked dork fish beside his higher league wife --- still does not prove meanness or unfairness and therefore neither does it prove exploitation.  That's the 800lb gorilla that blocks the exploitation claims.

[Daveman]

topic temporarily locked for maintenance...

[Daveman]

Topic reopened.. notice the topic has been split and a poll has been added...

[alex330]

Exploited? Sounds quite harsh and the individual situations vary greatly so it is hard to place a vote. We do not personally know of any situations where we feel the woman is being taken advantage of. We know of several couples where the men are being taken for a ride (financial or GC), and several where both seem to be using one another. We also know several men who would love to be able to exploit women but the women are smarter than they, and turn the tables quite easily. And then you have couples that are truly in love.

This is from where I am sitting today and the people in my circles. Maybe I am out of touch with the overall picture and there are 65 year old men plucking innocent 17 year old women from a village in Ukraine, but I certainly do not see it. Nothing comparable to what I see occurring in other countries.

At one point I believe the women were certainly exploited. We have someone very close to us that I feel certainly was. That was many years ago and the situation has changed thankfully.

[Konfushus]

There are two things - the MOB industry and MOB marriages.

The MOB industry exists where it's financially worthwhile for good looking women to chat to men they aren't interested in.

MOB marriages, through sites, agencies or socials happen for many different individual reasons - from a woman deliberately seeking an escape to a woman who signs up with an agency without much thought and no expectations and happens to meet the right man.

[Daveman]

There are two things - the MOB industry and MOB marriages.

The MOB industry exists where it's financially worthwhile for good looking women to chat to men they aren't interested in.

MOB marriages, through sites, agencies or socials happen for many different individual reasons - from a woman deliberately seeking an escape to a woman who signs up with an agency without much thought and no expectations and happens to meet the right man.

Agreed. And the industry could very well be guilty of exploitation.  I haven't really thought about that much.

There is also another angle - and the one which (maybe, IMO probably) most aligns with the definition of exploitation - that Ukraine itself (or Belarus, etc) is being exploited by both the men and women by using its current economically challenged condition to their unfair (to Ukraine) advantage for personal gain.

[Faux Pas]

These are wonderful words, Boethius! I do hope I was able to provide a small step to your enlightenment.

I had recently found myself too in the words of a 13th century Persian poet, Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad Rūmī, which I would love to share with you one of his gift to us all...

"Out beyond the ideas of right-doing or wrong-doing there is a field- I'll meet you there."

Yer killin' me 

[JayH]

I fixed title to make GQ feel included>

[Shadow]

It is simple to find those who are trying to exploit an economic advantage.
Once things come in to pay as 'avoid big cities, women are spoiled' it is easy to understand what the men *think* they need to use to conquer a woman.

[alex330]

Agreed. And the industry could very well be guilty of exploitation.  I haven't really thought about that much.

Yes, the industry itself is probably the largest culprit.

[Daveman]

It is simple to find those who are trying to exploit an economic advantage.
Once things come in to pay as 'avoid big cities, women are spoiled' it is easy to understand what the men *think* they need to use to conquer a woman.

Hmmm.  Still, that doesn't fulfill the prerequisite of "mean" or "unfair".  Even using assets as outright bait to catch a woman is no different than a woman using her ass..er set.. uh,.. assets to land a man with assets.  Freedom, choice, fair.

[Daveman]

Yes, the industry itself is probably the largest culprit.

So, let's break this down.  I don't see how we can get "meanness" into the equation.  What would be unfair about the "industry"?  I guess the industry would, first step, need to be divided into various components for which individual actions can be presented.  What are the tangible components of the industry?

[Shadow]

Hmmm.  Still, that doesn't fulfill the prerequisite of "mean" or "unfair".  Even using assets as outright bait to catch a woman is no different than a woman using her ass..er set.. uh,.. assets to land a man with assets.  Freedom, choice, fair.

Agreed that it is a free choice, and that a woman using such a man as a free ticket to her passport is a free choice as well.

[Daveman]

Agreed that it is a free choice, and that a woman using such a man as a free ticket to her passport is a free choice as well.

So, when "using", or perhaps a better term would be "deception", is involved, would that not be considered fraud rather than exploitation?