Exploitation: Real, imagined, or deliberately disingenuous?

[Misha]

Thanks. Remind me to tell MrsShadow to go home as we are doomed.

I said cautious, not to flee in fear .

[Konfushus]

But I do disagree that those who are desperate to emigrate due to their economical situation are minority from those who do use MOB sites.

Based on what?

If the majority of MOB site women actually were desperate to emigrate - wouldn't there be a mass immigration of women to the US and other countries through the MOB?

There isn't. Actual marriages are rare. Doesn't that tell you that the women aren't so desperate to emigrate after all?

It is not necessarily have to be situation that woman unable to provide for own basic needs but lack of opportunities, constant struggle, desire for stability, helplessness from the knowledge that there will be no improvement in foreseeable future are all factors in decision to look abroad.

I agree with you here, but it's not a purely economic situation. Individual situations can drive a woman to sign up on a MOB (or any other!) dating site. This could be loneliness, lack of dating opportunities and so on - the same reasons women use any dating sites. Often the progression is like this - normal dating isn't working out - you go to dating sites - that's not working out - you try a 'bride' dating site.

For women who want better career and education opportunities, the MOB is an option to 'ride a mule' to do so. This I have seen and heard of, but it compromises a small percentage of MOB women and MOB marriages.

There are also many opportunities through universities these days for women that seek a better career future in another country. The MOB is not a smart option.

Again such job have been chosen not because of abundance of opportunities.

Of course, but it beats flipping burgers (or blini).

Do not crush my believe men have ability to think   

Sorry (men are dumb, not evil) 

[Daveman]

Dave, if you have missed allow me to point out (once again) that from the beginning of this thread I have been saying "This is exploitation of economic situation in FSU"

etc.

But for some reason you decided exploitation of economic situation is equal to exploitation of women. I do wonder why?   

You and I have had little interaction in the thread.  So if I have inaccurately attributed an inconsequential phrasing pattern to you, then I apologize.  Allow me a moment to clarify -- for the record.

Whether this:
"This is exploitation of the economic situation in FSU."
or this:
"This is exploitation of women."

Neither is valid in essence, practice, spirit, connotation, or meaning within the definition including a reference to "unfair".  Whether or not there is a benefit for either one, the other, or both, there's nothing unfair about it.  Nyah!!

[Daveman]

The only time I've mentioned Russia in this thread is to state that it's no longer a powerhouse of the MOB business. Guess why that is?

I've also told you previously that I do not necessarily think that marrying an FSU woman is exploitative. Have a guess why?

just a hypothesis -- you suffer from melanophobia?

[Gator]

Ade,

I read your three posts from this morning and thought to myself that Ade's terse posts can be such a pleasurable read, even when he is disagreeing with me and others.

You must be reading a different thread. I didn't say that. My posts were also not referring to "the norm".

I see the word "norm" and assume he is stating that most RWD members do not exploit their dates, their wives.   Then I read what you wrote recently: " I do contend that Dave, like many others, searched for a wife in Ukraine to exploit the socio-economic conditions there knowing it would give him an advantage he didn't have in his own country."

I find that statement absurd.   If it is true, then as konfushus wrote you essentially did the same.  Frankly, I don't know where you are coming from.  You remind me of someone else at RWD who has been  critical for years of the "vast majority" of MOBers even though he is a MOBer.   

We just had a discussion in another thread on the Lake Wobegon effect, a cognitive bias known by psychologists as illusory superiority. 

[Ade]

just a hypothesis -- you suffer from melanophobia?

I'm curious why you think there could possibly be a connection?

Although I'm guessing it has more to do with that awful sense of humour you have. Does anyone ever laugh at it? I can honestly say that I never have. But is that why you wear shorts to nice restaurants, to get a titter?

[alex330]

A lot of back and forth on different perspectives in this thread. Coming from someone who fairly recently married a woman from Ukraine I would agree with everything Konfushus is saying, and he poses some great questions. The women are no longer desperate to get out. You may encounter a rare situation here and there. The situation has changed and most are just working or on the MOB sites for the reasons he mentions up thread. The USCIS stats show that even though the industry is more active in Ukraine versus the number of Russian immigrants is rising and the number of immigrants from Ukraine falling year after year here in the US.

I find it strange that many of those who married FSUW years ago seem to be the ones who seem to be most against it.

[fathertime]

So you think I'm aggressive? Interesting that you have such a poor grasp of tone and intent. 

The interpretation was entirely projection on your part I think.

here is how YOU used the word 'punter' in reference to people voting in the poll

Lol.It's like asking the lion if it thinks it's wrong to eat the gazelle. It's pretty damn obvious what the majority of punters think - cognitive dissonance - most men do not want to see themselves as exploiters.
[/size]

[size=78%] [/size][size=78%]
[/size]And now you pretend you were talking about a Punter in the NFL or something like that...you mean you don't even have the guts to now admit what you were really saying earlier?  You have had an opportunity to say or explain what you meant, but have chosen to play scared and use double talk instead of having an honest conversation....  In addition to that, you now make claims that I'm a 'punter' as I'm projecting, in your words.  So what were you doing all those 48 years before you finally had a child...'punting' and more 'punting'...or were you just a very slow bloomer...i.e.finally walk at age 10...baby teeth out at 21...etc etc....it could be said that you are 'projecting' by making the original assumption and bringing the off-topic of 'punting' into the conversation to begin with.  [size=78%]


[/size]You should just say what you mean and stand behind it...rather than trying to be cutesy with the attempts at insults/slights..which were never necessary to begin with. [size=78%]
[/size] [size=78%]

[/size]If you would like to explain YOU meant by punting, i'm all ears...but you seem a little tentative about the subject now.  [size=78%]

[/size]Fathertime!   [size=78%]

[Konfushus]

The only time I've mentioned Russia in this thread is to state that it's no longer a powerhouse of the MOB business. Guess why that is?

I know why and it's a recent change.

The primary reason is the switch from text chat to video chat a main source of revenue. Video chat requires women to sit at the cameras. Wages are less in Ukraine than in Russia. That's simple economics.

There has also been a crack down in agency fraud in Russia that has yet to occur in Ukraine and agency owners who have switched from the MOB business to the sex cam business which is about the the same but more honest.

What has changed in Russia is the decline of agency chat farms. Women are still using MOB sites where they sign up themselves.

The percent of women that actually want to meet and marry a man through a MOB agency is not what drives the industry. Is that what you think drove the shift to Ukraine?

I've also told you previously that I do not necessarily think that marrying an FSU woman is exploitative. Have a guess why?

So that you can distance yourself from a group that you actually belong to?

Previously I wrote - You believe in a social and economic disparity between your country and Russia, correct? Given that you believe in this disparity, by accepting interest from a woman from a deprived country, how were you not exploiting the situation? (By your definition)

Do you believe there is an economic or social disparity between Russia and Norway today?

Do you believe that there were such disparities when you met your wife?

What about the motivators you listed - do you believe that these no longer exist in Russia? Did they exist in Russia when you met your wife? When did they cease to exist?

Now, let's say a guy is searching for a wife in Russia, not Ukraine. Is he an exploiter?

[Daveman]

I'm curious why you think there could possibly be a connection?

Although I'm guessing it has more to do with that awful sense of humour you have. Does anyone ever laugh at it? I can honestly say that I never have. But is that why you wear shorts to nice restaurants, to get a titter?

Luckily you are quite humoUrous sometimes.  This is a good example of the law unintended consequences.

But, seriously, does the ad hominem angle ever assist you in making your points?  No? Yet, you apply the tactic multiple times in every thread in which you participate rather than just make your points and move to the next.  So I take it that actual discussion, on a discussion forum, really isn't your intent?

I'm sure there are those who will sense the meaning of my original question.. it really isn't that difficult..

[fathertime]

I think the term exploiter which usually carries quite the negative connotations has been watered down to the point where I could almost take delight in being called an 'exploiter'!  A guy who finds an advantage and uses it...nothing wrong with that in my opinion...if it that is where it ended....but alas, there will have a few judgmental additions in their own 'utopian' world.   


Fathertime!   

[Gator]

THE ULTIMATE AUTHORITY ON EXPLOITATION OF FSUW

I do not understand the basis for positions taken by Ade and MissAmeno.  These are two intelligent people.  Am I missing something?  So I go to the ultimate authority to be enlightened:  my wife.

We sit down and I ask her if she feels that I am using the economic differences between Russia and America to take advantage of her.  I use the word exploit.  She does not understand the word exploit, and I use the google translator.

She sees the translation on my computer screen and says, "Oh, I understand your question.  The word exploit sounds very similar to the Russian word эксплуатировать."

Then she pauses, thinks for moment, looks at me in the eyes,  and shishes me (fist with thumb protruding at my face).        "No!"

I start to write this post, and she comes back into the room.  She has a concerned look on her face, and she wants me to explain why I ask the question.  She asks if I believe she should bow her head to me because of the life I have given her.   She is becoming upset. 

I reply no, no, no.  This is a position taken by a married British man and a Russian woman.  I show her the posts.  She reads quickly, not understanding all but understanding enough.  Her reply "They are crazy."  [Note:  I am not using my wife as a surrogate to convey an insult.]

What am I missing?    My wife and I agree, no exploitation.  In fact, the thought that she is being exploited infuriates.  Most RW I met have a lot of pride and would feel the same.   

My wife reminds me that her lifestyle with me is not as opulent as she had with two RM husbands.   She then closes by stating she married me to build a happy life together, far more important than money.

What I just wrote is pravda. 

[Gator]

Her shish to me in 2007

[Daveman]

But hey, you wouldn't be the first fantasist in the MOB game.

And obviously not the last...

Feel free to overuse that ban hammer of yours again.

Why should I do that?  Should be offended by your posts?  Nah, I understand that ad hominem remarks are the waving of the white flag when logic has failed.  I accept your surrender. 

[JayH]

A lot of back and forth on different perspectives in this thread. Coming from someone who fairly recently married a woman from Ukraine I would agree with everything Konfushus is saying, and he poses some great questions. The women are no longer desperate to get out. You may encounter a rare situation here and there. The situation has changed and most are just working or on the MOB sites for the reasons he mentions up thread. The USCIS stats show that even though the industry is more active in Ukraine versus the number of Russian immigrants is rising and the number of immigrants from Ukraine falling year after year here in the US.

I find it strange that many of those who married FSUW years ago seem to be the ones who seem to be most against it.

I think that despite Ukraine being no bed of roses for it's citizens that things have improved. I first went there in 2010 and each time I returned I could see changes-and yes-improvements.I have no doubt about what economic numbers are showing-- I am not disputing them-- but there has seemed to me a stabilisation. It is hard to quantify "observations" and draw a conclusion -- but I will give one example. I have driven from my first day in Ukraine and I do have an interest in driving,cars and transport in general. When I was first there --I saw many trucks in extreme sub standard condition  ,many limping and crawling along the road. Many cars not too much better ,cars towing antiquated trailers etc  . Over a relatively short period I have seen  huge improvements on the average quality of these things-- and yes-- there are still some around ,but,nowhere near the frequency do you see them.In some place even the Police cars have been updated and are now considerably newer-- and faster!! ( LOL).
People I have known over this period seem to have achieved  stability in their lives.All the normal things you might expect people to do in life seem to be there-even if they have to work longer hours to do that.I am not saying that it is an easy life at all--- but it has less reason for a girl to accept "any" offer to leave.Historically it may have been possible to strike a very uneven "bargain" -- but girls are not interested in just any foreign guy--he needs to have something going for him !!

[JayH]

I find it strange that many of those who married FSUW years ago seem to be the ones who seem to be most against it.

Alex  it seems to me that there are a fair number of forum misfits amongst those guys--makes you wonder how they would get on in the current climate.

[pokerintherear]

I do not understand the basis for positions taken by Ade and MissAmeno.  These are two intelligent people.  Am I missing something?

No...... As you know you can predict which side of the fence most posters will be on with any given subject. Once you have a clear idea of their political beliefs you can determine their views of life.

If a man can determine a woman's political view on the 1st date you can determine her personality on most issues in a relationship without asking

[Jumper]

I'm really liking this new and improved GQ!  The positivity of your posts has made my computer screen glow like the California sun.  I can literally feel the good vibrations you exude.  Perhaps some of your epiphany will rub off on other less blessed posters (you know who you are . . . Ade!) GQ, you obviously have absorbed the lessons of those who had the patience, over the years, to point to the error of your ways.  Who knows?  Your next lesson may be on everlasting marital bliss, courtesy of one of our (many) multiple married members.

Ok I'll step up as a multi married  dreadful MOBer.

Whether a successful  ,fit, open minded western man marries a FSU woman,
or a bald fat old guy does,the level of exploitation is just not measured by the public on some sliding  scale, nor should it be.

I don't hide from the fact exploitation is  part of this equation.In fact it's at its very essence isn't it?
That fact is intrinsic , and isn't  uncomfortable to me really.Economic disparity exists, it shapes peoples lives and business. If that makes me a bad person in some strangers eyes,that doesn't know me or have any other data to reasonably assess me with,  I'll lose precious little sleep over it.

As you know exploitation  is  common, even within domestic relationships,
and it is mostly defined by intent.
I'm also sure very few RM are exploitative, that's so very uncommon in macho cultures...

Is the stance here  that most MOBers intentions are exploitative?
because at its root economic disparity  drives  MOB?

Does a hip decent guy ,(lets use GQ as an example because he can take the heat if any ensues) get an understandable pass because it obviously wasn't his intent to exploit?

perhaps? but you know what? I'll pass on taking that mulligan and just admit the whole mess is exploitative.

What next ? Do we put up our comparable standards of living(verses standards of living of our wives) to see who was the most ,or least ,exploitative?
Isn't that the only true measure? LOL!

Since my meager wage wasn't really much more than my wife's take home after expenses,
..I'll try and adjust my MOB tarnished  ,yet hopefully still slightly angelic ,halo to just a slight a notch above your joe average MOber,. as that just seems the  hip thing to do.
Those joe average MOBers know who they  are!!

[calmissile]

But why guys advised here to stay away from large urban cities?

I don't agree with that assessment and advice.  However in my limited experience both on line and in person, there seems to be some general differences.  Enough to create a stereotype (for me).

Isn't that because girls there have more options to choose from? Could be.  Most of the scammers seem to be concentrated in the larger cities, just like there is a higher proportion of FSUW on dating sites.  The feedback I got from those in the villages is that the MOB scene is not as well known, and there seems to be a culture thing (in the villages) that it is less than honorable to advertise yourself on line.
   
Or is that because girls there used to better quality of life?

It's probably true, that in general city gals have a better quality of life.  Also many more choices.  Digging potatoes by hand in the fields isn't what many women would choose for a  lifestyle.

Why guys are not interested to seek FSUW who already emigrated? I think they (we) are.  It's just that there are relatively so few of them, that it is difficult to find them.  One that I was talking to online from the wealthy area of Newport Beach made it clear that anyone that she would be interested in would have to be wealthy and she would play the role of trophy wife!  I think she already became westernized.   

Isn't that because they already 'spoiled' with western life style and there is no economical desperation in equation?

See above.

[Shadow]

I said cautious, not to flee in fear .

That does not mean that your words were having any more value. In Moscow there are 12 million people (plus a couple of million illegal ones) which makes any general statement about women there simply invalid. Gold diggers in Moscow do not have to look for foreign men, as the city provides them with enouhg opportunities.
What separates Moscow from other places is that it has a pretty settled moddle class, who earn a decent living and can find local alternatives. The cautions is there for not that you have to be from a big city, but that you have to be able to offer more as a wallet and passport.

[Daveman]

THE ULTIMATE AUTHORITY ON EXPLOITATION OF FSUW


What am I missing?    My wife and I agree, no exploitation.  In fact, the thought that she is being exploited infuriates.  Most RW I met have a lot of pride and would feel the same.   

I have no idea.  I also had this conversation with Maryana. Her response was that "I don't believe in stereotypes because individuals are who meets and there are good and bad. And all couples use each other for their personal what they want "  then she added "but you did 'exploitate' because you stole the Ukraine treasure..."

Yep.. that last part is a fact.  I've mentioned a couple times so far, that I think most of it has to do with personal distaste and prejudice rather than actual facts or logic -- "I feel disgust and contempt therefore (whatever to justify my emotion)."  You, Konfushus, FT, alex, Misha, and others have all made exceptionally good points and posts. 

Boethius, Ade and MissA have made excellent comments concerning the state of some individual men/women who obviously exist in this, just not enough to prove the validity of the all encompassing label being applied as an umbrella.

[calmissile]

Her shish to me in 2007

Ah, I get the same gesture if my wife catches me glancing at another women.     
Old habbits have to change.

[calmissile]

And obviously not the last...


Why should I do that?  Should be offended by your posts?  Nah, I understand that ad hominem remarks are the waving of the white flag when logic has failed.  I accept your surrender.

+1     

[Misha]

The cautions is there for not that you have to be from a big city, but that you have to be able to offer more as a wallet and passport.

No, the caution had nothing to do with wallet. It had to do with the fact that there are more than a few Muscovites who pride themselves in living in a metropolis and for them to move to anything less than a megacity would be seen by them as moving to a backwater not worthy of them. Yes, not all muscovites are like that, but there are more than a few like this, and that is why I would want to make sure to find someone in Moscow who would be open and willing to live in a smaller city--and by smaller I mean less than 5 million inhabitants.

[calmissile]

I find it strange that many of those who married FSUW years ago seem to be the ones who seem to be most against it.

I wondered the same thing for a while, but after a couple years discovered that most of the newlyweds leave the forum to begin their happy lives.  Many of us stay in contact with them outside the forum and that is how we know what is going on in their lives.

We are fortunate to have a few happily married couples that stick around and give advice and share their lives, but it seems a very small percentage.  Unfortunately, it seems to be skewed to hearing more from those that are generally unhappy, sarcastic, and miserable.  Maybe it's their psychological outlet to vent because they are not allowed to do it at home.