For love OR money?

[Daveman]

DTEJD why wouldn't you make this post on some financial forum instead? It may even bring some conceivable ideas for her. It looks like us the RWD members are not a real experts in advising on debt management.   

I'm pretty sure he was initiating a general discussion on her (and the general) current  state rather than seeking advice on the lady's behalf.  RWD is well suited for such speculation.

Absolute correct though, it is unlikely that RWD would be the best place for professional debt counseling. 

[ML]

Need to use good common sense (not even to speak of good financial planning) when considering first 4 year degree and subsequent education.

Persons should use some combination of academic scholarships, athletic scholarships, go first to military and receive benefits for later education, work a couple of years before starting college, part-time work while student with full time work during vacations, dropping out of school for a semester or a year to earn money, money from parents, choosing schools within budget, etc. . . . and never end up with any student loans payable at graduation.

[fathertime]

In my opinion, college is becoming very questionable for a lot of people nowadays, especially very expensive educations that don't lead directly to a higher paying job.  In speaking with my high school daughter, we are doing a cost benefit analysis as to what is the smarter route to take going forward.  I have quite a chunk of change in her college accounts and the soaring stock market has made it even larger, but the resulting question is becoming, Would it be better to take that money and open a business or put a down payment on rental property VS going to college and hopefully having a good time, getting an education, but blowing it all? 


I always thought college would be the best route in part because of the social aspects of it and pure enjoyment...but some young people may find that it isn't worth that much to them. I think nowadays parent/child have to be strategic as to how to proceed.   


Fathertime!





 

[Faux Pas]

In my opinion, college is becoming very questionable for a lot of people nowadays, especially very expensive educations that don't lead directly to a higher paying job.  In speaking with my high school daughter, we are doing a cost benefit analysis as to what is the smarter route to take going forward.  I have quite a chunk of change in her college accounts and the soaring stock market has made it even larger, but the resulting question is becoming, Would it be better to take that money and open a business or put a down payment on rental property VS going to college and hopefully having a good time, getting an education, but blowing it all? 


I always thought college would be the best route in part because of the social aspects of it and pure enjoyment...but some young people may find that it isn't worth that much to them. I think nowadays parent/child have to be strategic as to how to proceed.   


Fathertime!

There are many college grads looking for a job but, there's many more without college degrees looking for one. College degree is a necessity to land a decent paying position but, if you've feeling lucky, take the savings to Vegas 

[Boethius]

Well actually yes, it is going to keep a lot of USA graduates from ever getting employment...

Low end work used to be done in house at the big firms and new associates did it for their first few years.  Clients (rightly) balked at the high fees being charged for this...so it was outsourced/offshored.

Now it is much harder to get into "biglaw".  Of course it has always been difficult.

Low end work was done by graduates of low end schools.  Now that work has becoming much scarcer.  There is pressure at the top, and everybody lower on the ladder gets pushed down.  Those farther down the ladder to begin with may get pushed off or not even be able to get on.

The split in the legal profession is wider than it ever has been.  You have the top end from the top 20 schools or so, who have a decent shot.  Then you have the poor slobs at the other 180 law schools.  If you are s graduate of the 180 or so schools, and NOT in the top 10% of your class, your outcome is probably going to be very, very bad.

At some of the lower ranked schools, it is not surprising to see 50%+ of graduates not able to find ANY work in the legal profession...

So this woman has already beat the odds...the problem is that she is not really making much money AND she has CRUSHING debt levels.  A toxic combination.

The legal profession has undergone a seismic shift and I don't see it ever getting any better.

Most law school graduates never work for big firms, so it will not affect them.  Furthermore, a lot of this work, particularly on the litigation side, was not done by junior lawyers, but rather, by paralegals.


When I graduated from law school, permanent positions were difficult to find.  Many of my classmates hung out their own shingles.  Two decades later, almost all of them are thriving.  This work really is cyclical, and the seismic shift has not occurred.  Moreover, with some experience, lawyers can move into many inhouse fields.  I would suggest to this woman that criminal law is a good way to learn court room work, but that she should, in the next few years, be looking at moving into a niche, such as family law or tax law.

[GQBlues]

Wow:

I am surprised at how much interest this thread is generating...

It would be interesting to know the age of the posters...I think there is very LARGE generational gulf here...

The world has shifted and is shifting.  It used to be that if you got an education and worked hard, stayed away from drugs & alcohol, you would get ahead in life.  That is no longer the case.  Education in the USA has become a very poor investment for a lot of people, this woman is a prime example....

I disagree. My wife and I invested relatively very little finance in her earning a University degree and she found employment even before graduating. She had since earned her way up and can technically now (more than comfortably) support herself alone even in a 'high rent' city like Sta Monica/Marina Del Rey...and she's only 30 years old, debt-free and with credibility beyond high 700.

At 250K, she should've at least invested in researching what type of profession she'd like to pursue based on current career market. If being a lawyer is what she'd like to be, regardless of eventual market economics, she should've been a bit more careful with managing the student loan.

I could never understand anyone owning $250K even for a lawyer degree. She's living at home to boot. That's just a disgrace and it largely shows anyone their thought process about these things.

Personally, won't touch anyone like that. For starters, she'd be way too old for me. But like I said, I can fully understand a *distinguished gentleman* being interested in a woman like her since these gentlemen would look at least 15,  20, 25 years their actual ages and they'll be a great match for a woman her age. That makes for a perfect scenario to fall in love and sparking a possible romance of a lifetime. I don't see anything wrong in that at all. Matter of fact, I highly support it now! The younger the woman, the better. If she turns 40, then her chances of marrying a distinguish gentleman really takes a serious dive. So she shouldn't waste too much time.

...I have many reasons to be interested in her situation...I have many family members in the legal profession.  I have many friends & associates in the profession too!  So I know a little bit about the industry...

I see...but what has this got to do with *your* friend's prospective tenant search/qualifications?

[fathertime]

There are many college grads looking for a job but, there's many more without college degrees looking for one. College degree is a necessity to land a decent paying position but, if you've feeling lucky, take the savings to Vegas 

Ha!  I hear you, uneducated and without skills is NOT a place to be, but that seems to be where a lot of young people wind up! 
 If my girl decides against college entirely, which I doubt will happen, then we are going to have to work together to find a good place for the college money to be used, and a crapshoot is at the bottom of that list, along with partying.  I'm lucky in that my daughter is conservative and mature (for a high school-er), so  I think there are a lot of sensible options that we could agree to and get behind.  Ultimately she will have to chart her course so at this point giving it a lot of thought is where we are at.  We have enough ties to housing/construction that it has to be among the considerations. 


Like most, I tend to think that at 17/18 most young people can use just a little more seasoning before embarking on spending a college fund on a business that has a low probability of success.   In that respect college is a temporary hedge against doing something rash/too risky.


Fathertime! 

[Slumba]

If you don't invest in yourself, meaning your professional education after all, what else are we supposed to do with our lives?

It is a big question... the fiction that many in the USA have is that just knowing what you learn in University is somehow "enough" for the rest of your life.  I have been in plenty of college-educated people's homes with hardly any books in them.

I bet if DTEJD ever was able to look inside her apartment, now that she has moved in, he might notice a big flat screen TV, and no books of either literary (Victor Hugo, Tolstoy, etc.)  or educational/career importance (books on business, how to be a better lawyer, etc.). 

She probably has a few to several different favorite TV shows, though, total TV viewing time 6-10 hours per week, minimum; and possibly reads fluff or chick-lit by authors such as Jodi Picoult, James Patterson, etc.

My view would be, that a person can easily invest in themselves simply by picking up a serious book on a topic and beginning to read. It won't get you 100% of the way towards a career, but then, it doesn't cost $250K either.

It is part of the confusion of American society that women like this exist... she is approaching the age at which she will be too old to have kids and also doesn't have much of a career... she is neither "fish nor fowl" as the saying goes.

[pokerintherear]

Here is what she is up against

Illegal immigrants can have a law license according to California Supreme Court

It cant get any better than this

http://www.mercurynews.com/crime-courts/ci_24833796/california-illegal-immigrants-can-get-law-license-state

[Lily]

But like I said, I can fully understand a *distinguished gentleman* being interested in a woman like her since these gentlemen would look at least 15,  20, 25 years their actual ages and they'll be a great match for a woman her age. That makes for a perfect scenario to fall in love and sparking a possible romance of a lifetime. I don't see anything wrong in that at all. Matter of fact, I highly support it now! The younger the woman, the better. If she turns 40, then her chances of marrying a distinguish gentleman really takes a serious dive. So she shouldn't waste too much time.

She is in the U.S., not in the FSU where the woman is judged by her age mainly. If this woman is slim, sexy and attractive, she still has good chances.

[GQBlues]

She is in the U.S., not in the FSU where the woman is judged by her age mainly. If this woman is slim, sexy and attractive, she still has good chances.

Yes. I agree with you completely, Lily. Like I said on my first post in this thread, if this subject gal is an AW and as we are absolutely certain of this fact today, means she's undoubtedly 'fat', well then tough noogies for her. She's left with nothing but BK option from here on in...

But very likely the gal is an FSUW and likely pretty. So that's half of the equation we have. The other half, sans pun since we don't (yet) know if it'll be age or weight related; would seemingly be the perfect 'half' match for her. I'm just concerned for her since she is already 35 and her marketability asset erodes rapidly underneath her at that age. At 40+, she may just as well be a fat AW.

[jone]

Bankruptcy Case Offers Hope for Student Borrowers
By EQUAL JUSTICE WORKS

June 12, 2013

A 10-year court battle waged by Michael Hedlund, a graduate of Willamette Law School, to discharge his student loans has recently ended with a 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals decision partially discharging his loans.

Hedlund borrowed about $85,000 to get his undergraduate and law degrees, then failed the bar exam three times. He ultimately took a job as a juvenile counselor. At 33, married and with a child, he declared bankruptcy. His case has potentially large implications for borrowers.

It's pretty well known by now that student loans cannot be discharged through the normal bankruptcy process.

Instead, Congress requires student loan borrowers to initiate an adversary proceeding, a separate lawsuit filed within the bankruptcy case, in which they have to prove that repaying their student loan debt would be an "undue hardship."

In the absence of any further guidance from Congress on what constitutes an undue hardship, most courts now apply what is called the "Brunner standard."

That standard requires a borrower to prove three things: One, that the borrower and any dependents cannot maintain a minimal standard of living based on current income and expenses; two, that additional circumstances indicate this is likely to be the case for a significant portion of the borrower's repayment period; and three, that the borrower made a good faith effort to repay the loans.

The conventional wisdom is that the need for a separate proceeding – for which many bankrupt borrowers will be unable to afford a lawyer – and the stringency with which courts apply this standard make it virtually impossible for borrowers to discharge their student loans. And, in some respects, Hedlund's case confirms this.

Hedlund was represented pro bono by Morrison and Foerster, one of the top bankruptcy firms in the country, which is unlikely to be an option for most borrowers. And, of course, Hedlund was a law school graduate himself.

It's also notable that, due in part to some unusual circumstances such as a judge passing away, it took Hedlund nearly 10 years to earn the partial discharge. Many borrowers will not want to persist through litigation nearly that lengthy.

On the other hand, Hedlund settled with one of the holders of his student loans shortly after filing his adversary proceeding. Just the possibility of obtaining a settlement should encourage needy borrowers to move forward with an adversary proceeding.

As important for future plaintiffs, the 9th Circuit Court also upheld the bankruptcy court's relatively reasonable application of the facts in Hedlund's case to the Brunner standard.

For example, the 9th Circuit Court agreed there was considerable evidence the family's expenses, including two cell phones for the family and leasing a reliable car could be seen as reasonable and that the excess expenses – including cable and children's haircuts – could be deemed marginal.

The bankruptcy court had also rejected arguments that Hedlund should find another part-time job while noting that his wife could be expected to work three days a week rather than one. The 9th Circuit Court agreed with this analysis as well, holding there was considerable evidence Hedlund had maximized his income and declining to attribute his wife's underemployment to bad faith. These parameters provide hope – and, more importantly, good precedent – for future plaintiffs who want to earn discharges without suffering complete material deprivation or working abnormally long hours.

The 9th Circuit Court also upheld relatively reasonable parameters regarding the effort Hedlund had to make to repay his loans. For example, it agreed with the bankruptcy court that Hedlund was justified in rejecting repayment options offered by his loan servicer that would have entailed monthly payments he could not have afforded and that would still have meant repaying his loans for thirty years.

Overall, Hedlund's case is hopeful precedent. Borrowers should also be aware of a study by Jason Iuliano which suggests that in 2007 alone, there were 69,000 borrowers who were good candidates for relief but fewer than 300 actually attempted to discharge their loans. Iuliano's study also finds evidence that plaintiffs filing adversary proceedings on their own are as likely to prevail as those with attorneys.

The Student Loan Ranger continues to lobby for legislation such as The Private Loan Bankruptcy Fairness Act of 2013 and The Fairness for Struggling Students Act of 2013 that will restore fairness to the bankruptcy code for private student loan borrowers and to advocate for legislation that will reinstate bankruptcy protections for federal student loan borrowers. In the meantime, Hedlund's experience and Iuliano's study argues that more borrowers in bankruptcy should assert their rights under the undue hardship standard – even if they have to represent themselves.

Isaac Bowers is a senior program manager in the Communications and Outreach unit, responsible for Equal Justice Works's educational debt relief initiatives. An expert on educational debt relief, Bowers conducts monthly webinars for a wide range of audiences; advises employers, law schools, and professional organizations; and works with Congress and the Department of Education on federal legislation and regulations. Prior to joining Equal Justice Works, he was a fellow at Shute, Mihaly & Weinberger LLP in San Francisco. He received his J.D. from New York University School of Law.

[Lily]

But very likely the gal is an FSUW and likely pretty. 

Did I missed anything in the OP's post that tells she is a FSUW?

[GQBlues]

Did I missed anything in the OP's post that tells she is a FSUW?

No, you didn't Lily. I apologize if I happen to have misled you. That was actually my guess since this site IS a site specifically about relationships with FSUWs.

It would hardly make sense to be asking Russian women in this particular site about any matter regarding an AW in debt and whether or not a landlord should be renting her a unit. I even initially advised him to maybe just let her use his unit without having to rent her the apartment, if that was possible.

But, I may be wrong as it's been obvious now for the many of you I've turned a new leaf and I have so much to learn in this endeavor.

[GQBlues]

It is a big question... the fiction that many in the USA have is that just knowing what you learn in University is somehow "enough" for the rest of your life.  I have been in plenty of college-educated people's homes with hardly any books in them.

I bet if DTEJD ever was able to look inside her apartment, now that she has moved in, he might notice a big flat screen TV, and no books of either literary (Victor Hugo, Tolstoy, etc.)  or educational/career importance (books on business, how to be a better lawyer, etc.). 

She probably has a few to several different favorite TV shows, though, total TV viewing time 6-10 hours per week, minimum; and possibly reads fluff or chick-lit by authors such as Jodi Picoult, James Patterson, etc.

My view would be, that a person can easily invest in themselves simply by picking up a serious book on a topic and beginning to read. It won't get you 100% of the way towards a career, but then, it doesn't cost $250K either.

It is part of the confusion of American society that women like this exist... she is approaching the age at which she will be too old to have kids and also doesn't have much of a career... she is neither "fish nor fowl" as the saying goes.

+1000

That's highly observant of you, if I may so add...

I can't even imagine any FSUW who would waste their time to such silly TV sitcoms like 'Sex in the City', 'Santa Barbara', etc...

American women and the US society at large is really very confused.

[DTEJD]

Did I missed anything in the OP's post that tells she is a FSUW?

You are correct, she is an "American" woman.

She is liberal, but not screamingly or annoyingly so...

She is OK looking, and is most certainly NOT fat.  HOWEVER, she is not especially good looking.  Maybe slightly above average.

She is in her 30's.  So time is running fast.

My intent in starting the thread was not so much to argue about the law industry OR student loans...but to see if a perspective mate's debt/obligations would be a deal breaker. 

Thus, would money (or lack thereof) be an obstacle to forming a relationship?

[Slumba]

You are correct, she is an "American" woman.

She is liberal, but not screamingly or annoyingly so...

She is OK looking, and is most certainly NOT fat.  HOWEVER, she is not especially good looking.  Maybe slightly above average.

She is in her 30's.  So time is running fast.

My intent in starting the thread was not so much to argue about the law industry OR student loans...but to see if a perspective mate's debt/obligations would be a deal breaker. 

Thus, would money (or lack thereof) be an obstacle to forming a relationship?

Forming a relationship - not a problem; but marriage (which in the context of Russian women not living in the USA is what is required) would be off the table.

Note that some might promulgate a double-standard - any woman would get a pass for dumping a guy with poor money prospects for the next 10 years, especially if kids are involved, or kids are wanted in the future; but that the guy dumped her for money issues (possibly, you haven't told us why) would result in public shaming over his cad-like behavior.

In terms of "money the woman brings to the relationship" I think most guys (again in the FSUW context) are regardless of political views, guys who think that the woman should not have the weight of financial issues placed on her.  That is, the man should provide, even if the woman works either upon arrival or much later.

[GQBlues]

You are correct, she is an "American" woman.

She is liberal, but not screamingly or annoyingly so...

She is OK looking, and is most certainly NOT fat.  HOWEVER, she is not especially good looking.  Maybe slightly above average.

She is in her 30's.  So time is running fast.

My intent in starting the thread was not so much to argue about the law industry OR student loans...but to see if a perspective mate's debt/obligations would be a deal breaker. 

Thus, would money (or lack thereof) be an obstacle to forming a relationship?

Ahh! Well, in that case...to me it would make a huge difference. It isn't so much the lack of funds that would be a deal-breaker for me but rather it is in how she managed her life until now considering she's already 35.

17 years past since her entrance to adulthood and she's a few (cue) balls behind the 8-ball at 35 simply tells me she couldn't take care of herself much less be fully wired to even begin to contemplate marriage and parenthood altogether.

[Lily]

17 years past since her entrance to adulthood and she's a few (cue) balls behind the 8-ball at 35 simply tells me she couldn't take care of herself much less be fully wired to even begin to contemplate marriage and parenthood altogether.

Considering that this woman managed to start her own law practice, and still makes some money to keep her afloat despite the bleak business opportunities, I would tell that she must be pretty much able to take care of herself. She struggles but, given that she is an AW, we have not heard that she ever had a nervious breakdown or something like that, you know what I mean. That tells me that she has guts and is determined to survive.
 
Regarding her marriageability, may be the AM could shed us some light on at which stage of the relationships people start telling about their financial situation and assets?
 
At the end of day, there is always a prenup option where a couple can establish the way they are going to deal with their financial obligations.
 
 

[Faux Pas]

You are correct, she is an "American" woman.

She is liberal, but not screamingly or annoyingly so...

She is OK looking, and is most certainly NOT fat.  HOWEVER, she is not especially good looking.  Maybe slightly above average.

She is in her 30's.  So time is running fast.

My intent in starting the thread was not so much to argue about the law industry OR student loans...but to see if a perspective mate's debt/obligations would be a deal breaker. 

Thus, would money (or lack thereof) be an obstacle to forming a relationship?

Well in THAT case, turn the tables just a bit and vision a man, any many paying child support. 1-2 kids easily would equate to 200K of debt, 3-4 kids would ratchet that up to 500K. Should any woman think about marrying him?

Now, if the gal was saddled with that debt with no means of paying it back, certainly one would need to think long and hard before pursuing something long lasting with her. He'd be crazy not to. However, for any man who's primary concern of a woman and hinges on is her debt, really needn't be pursuing any woman. Certainly a secondary concern but not the primary one. IMHO

[Konfushus]

Ahh! Well, in that case...to me it would make a huge difference. It isn't so much the lack of funds that would be a deal-breaker for me but rather it is in how she managed her life until now considering she's already 35.

17 years past since her entrance to adulthood and she's a few (cue) balls behind the 8-ball at 35 simply tells me she couldn't take care of herself much less be fully wired to even begin to contemplate marriage and parenthood altogether.

There are a lot of American women (and men) in her shoes these days. Not all find easy success in their chosen fields of study.

Would you feel better about her if she had found a man to fund and support her through her education so that now she would be debt free?

[GQBlues]

Considering that this woman managed to start her own law practice, and still makes some money to keep her afloat despite the bleak business opportunities, I would tell that she must be pretty much able to take care of herself. She struggles but, given that she is an AW, we have not heard that she ever had a nervious breakdown or something like that, you know what I mean. That tells me that she has guts and is determined to survive...

Lily, taking what the OP already mentioned, the road ahead of her isn't too promising for her career. Moreover, she's been living with her parents at 35, so this isn't exactly taking care of oneself per USA standard. Given that SHE IS an AW, there's no redeeming qualities for getting yourself $250,000.00 in student loan debt and still be mooching off your parents at 35. Very likely the gal was cutting the fat off the hog when the checks were coming in with little to no regard in how she's going to pay it all back someday.

You have to remember, this is an AW in USA. That generally means she's likely to be dating men in her age bracket. Generally. So the likelihood of a man in her age bracket wanting to 'share' her $ 250,000.00 hole is close to zero.

Heck, read some of the *distinguished gentlemen's* posts you read in this board. Some complain about having to spend 100 bucks for flowers, or shooting for multiple city/country layovers just to save $200.00 for their R/T flights, etc...

Do you honestly believe an average 35-something John Doe would want to quasi-own up to a $250K bill?

....Regarding her marriageability, may be the AM could shed us some light on at which stage of the relationships people start telling about their financial situation and assets?...

Highly subjective. In the US, one will either be upfront about their finances and others ultimately finds out somewhere along the road. Generally, casually dating someone doesn't necessarily mean you exchange such information on the forefront. This is generally considered 'private' matters.
 

....At the end of day, there is always a prenup option where a couple can establish the way they are going to deal with their financial obligations...

Prenup, division of debts, separation of responsibilities simply cannot be ignored in the US or at least not be concerned with. The reason is, whatever funds are being directed for payment towards her student loan, are funds that could've been used communally and/or towards marital/family expense. She's literally a walking liability.

One thing you need to start understanding is, the dynamics between general US relationships/marriages from that of the ones you read on boards like RWD between FSUW/AM. Generally, you'll find none to very little similarities between the two groups other than the fact both groups have taken the 'vow'.

Anyway, that's just how I look at this. If someday she makes it BIG, good on her. Chances are, she's headed for the BK courts.
 

[GQBlues]

There are a lot of American women (and men) in her shoes these days. Not all find easy success in their chosen fields of study...

With 250K in student loan debt? Define *a lot* please, distinguish gentleman.

...Would you feel better about her if she had found a man to fund and support her through her education so that now she would be debt free?

For $250,000.00? Hell no...but you and I are different so I can understand your point for doing so. Since especially now that I've turned over a new leaf I no longer demonize such types of marriages. Matter of fact, I'm very happy now for gentlemen like yourself.

There should be more men like you in the MOB, I now agree.

[Konfushus]

$250k isn't unusual these days for the price of undergrad + law school. Ok, you wouldn't for $250K. What would be your upper limit on the price of love?

so I can understand your point for doing so

You can understand my point for doing what?

I no longer demonize such types of marriages

Sarcasm noted. One somewhat common Russian - American marriage 'type' that I've seen is where a older man marries a young chick and puts her through school, all the while cooking, cleaning and taking care of her needs like a parent would a child. I've seen these last up to 10 years, until the woman decides she wants to have kids.

Is that the type of marriage you demonize?

Matter of fact, I'm very happy now for gentlemen like yourself.

Sarcasm noted again. What type of gentleman am I? What I can tell you about myself is that I never used a MOB agency. I married an independent woman who had finished her university degrees, owned property, lived alone and ran her own business when I met her. She never used any online dating or marriage site and she's never been dependant on me financially. Is that the type of marriage you demonize?

How about you?  I've heard your story in bits and pieces. What's your deal?

You hold MOB seekers in contempt, yet your story as I've heard it is that of the sterotypical MOB man - didn't find a wife in the US, used MOB sites to line up meetings, picked a wife with a large discrepancy in both looks and age and moved her from one dependant situation (living with parents) to another (being a college student). That about right?

You also seem to agree that men using MOB sites are exploiting women. Given this, why did you use MOB sites? At what point did you realize that you were exploiting women? When you realized this, why did you continue? (Or did you realize it after you were already wed?)

[DTEJD]

Well in THAT case, turn the tables just a bit and vision a man, any many paying child support. 1-2 kids easily would equate to 200K of debt, 3-4 kids would ratchet that up to 500K. Should any woman think about marrying him?

Now, if the gal was saddled with that debt with no means of paying it back, certainly one would need to think long and hard before pursuing something long lasting with her. He'd be crazy not to. However, for any man who's primary concern of a woman and hinges on is her debt, really needn't be pursuing any woman. Certainly a secondary concern but not the primary one. IMHO

Turn about is fair play!  Well made point!  In the past, debt has kept me from entering into relationships or even dating.  Who wants to date a man who is broke and deeply in debt? 

As to the children being liabilities....well maybe...but there is a HUGE difference between them and student loans.

Children are not accruing interest.  You will have to spend on children, but they don't require $1,200 a month before being fed/clothed/provided for.  Student loans do.

In the example of this one woman, the MONTHLY interest is well over $1,000 alone.  That is BEFORE she pays down ANY of the balance. $1,200 a month would go a LONG way towards feeding/clothing/caring for a child.

In order to pay her debts in 18 years at 7% interest, she would have to pay $2,040 a month.  I would think you would be able to easily raise a child for that amount!

And finally, it is a very astute comment about men grousing for $100 flowers/gifts and the lengths they will go to save money while traveling.  if a few hundred dollars is that big a deal, just imagine how much $250k would be!!