Calling All Old Posters-- ie Those missing on Forum for some time

[Jumper]

 Let me ask you Misha.
 When raising your child(ren) do you assign equal repsosibilities to the success of the child(ren) or do you have a 'heavier' hand in the success?
 I know that if I didn't have a 'heavier' hand with my children, they would not be where they are right now. Namely, towards a successful life.

The implication seems the situation of support and guidance of a child or adolescent ,is little  different than those of an adult?

I certainly am supportive of my wife in every way,
I hardly treat her like a I do my son though.As certainly she is no child and has a much more developed idea of self, of who she is, and what she wants.

Also,  your heavier hand would work very well with some children,( i likely lean towards that,but try tio stay open minded) and yet not as well with others.
My fathers own heavy hand made me more rebellious than i likely would have been , so while i loved and greatly admire the man to this day, his approach softened a bit would have had me more in tune to be successful at an earlier age.Ultimately it was me, my personality that reacted, my brother reacted differently,and more positively.I take full responsibility for my own actions of when i listened to his guidance, or not.
Anyway the proof of such differences is the multitude of brother and sisters from the same family that turn out at polar opposite ends of any given spectrum.
Now ,would that not be true , or even more dynamic, in whats supposed to be a relationship between adults?

I do agree the husband should support his wife, regardless age, in her aspirations and life.Age seems irrelevant in  that topic.
Does a younger person require more guidance or support?Generally yes, but certainly not true of all cases.Nor is there any real evidence they would get such,  married to any random  man closer their own age or younger , which are the other options as well.
I also do not see any husbands here that did not support their wives or guide them towards success in their wishes.
The comparisons seem invalid.
This whole line of *questioning* spun out of mere speculation of what some individual wanted out of a relationship, or life.When none here knew.
Then went on to further  speculation on changes in such life goals, and priorities.
Wow!! that would be breaking news isn't it? 
That never happens in marriages of the same age or culture...nope never heard of it.

How do we know what supporting hand any older husband has in the younger wife's choices, ambition ,or life goals?
None of the examples used  here are actually known what the husbands did, or did not do, to support what the younger wife actually wanted in life. No one knows what the younger wives feel or felt, wanted ,or aspired to.Regardless the claims to the contrary ,only the people in those relationships know.

So the speculation should not be presented as factual.
It's why I asked we  move more appropriately to general musings on the topic.
Seems  to be working a bit,shouldn't be that hard really.

[HiTech]

With the way this thread went,I wish I  would not have posted in it.

HiTech

[Jumper]

I have an idea........Make this a private forum and you can control all aspects of participation........I think all problems would be solved and all parties would be happy.

To clarify:
The simple idea is for members to honor their agreements when they signed up, if they wish to post on this public forum.

Now that said ,
I would love if they would further that fundamental idea,
and discussion could retain the amount of respect generally given others in public. (not just virtual)
As if sitting around the table at a cafe.

I'll not dare hope for that utopia

In the meantime, I fail to see why dropping the insults, or even the disparaging innuendo , would really concern anyone or discourage their participation or enjoyment here.
 

[Jumper]

With the way this thread went,I wish I  would not have posted in it.

HiTech

I'm glad you updated us, and the family photos were great.
You have a beautiful family HiTech.

[Muzh]

The implication seems the situation of support and guidance of a child or adolescent ,is little  different than those of an adult?

I certainly am supportive of my wife in every way,
I hardly treat her like a I do my son though.As certainly she is no child and has a much more developed idea of self, of who she is, and what she wants.

Also,  your heavier hand would work very well with some children,( i likely lean towards that,but try tio stay open minded) and yet not as well with others.
My fathers own heavy hand made me more rebellious than i likely would have been , so while i loved and greatly admire the man to this day, his approach softened a bit would have had me more in tune to be successful at an earlier age.Ultimately it was me, my personality that reacted, my brother reacted differently,and more positively.I take full responsibility for my own actions of when i listened to his guidance, or not.
Anyway the proof of such differences is the multitude of brother and sisters from the same family that turn out at polar opposite ends of any given spectrum.
Now ,would that not be true , or even more dynamic, in whats supposed to be a relationship between adults?

I do agree the husband should support his wife, regardless age, in her aspirations and life.Age seems irrelevant in  that topic.
Does a younger person require more guidance or support?Generally yes, but certainly not true of all cases.Nor is there any real evidence they would get such,  married to any random  man closer their own age or younger , which are the other options as well.
I also do not see any husbands here that did not support their wives or guide them towards success in their wishes.
The comparisons seem invalid.
This whole line of *questioning* spun out of mere speculation of what some individual wanted out of a relationship, or life.When none here knew.
Then went on to further  speculation on changes in such life goals, and priorities.
Wow!! that would be breaking news isn't it? 
That never happens in marriages of the same age or culture...nope never heard of it.

How do we know what supporting hand any older husband has in the younger wife's choices, ambition ,or life goals?
None of the examples used  here are actually known what the husbands did, or did not do, to support what the younger wife actually wanted in life. No one knows what the younger wives feel or felt, wanted ,or aspired to.Regardless the claims to the contrary ,only the people in those relationships know.

So the speculation should not be presented as factual.
It's why I asked we  move more appropriately to general musings on the topic.
Seems  to be working a bit,shouldn't be that hard really.

Not even close to what I was saying.
 
Let's say you are 45+ yo. No matter how much you wish it for a 21 yo woman, compared to you, is not an adult in the same league as you. I hope.
 
I was just talking to a good friend who just became a grandma. She is very sad because her daughter-in-law appears to be an emotional basket case from hell. As she told me, She is only 23 so I attribute it to immaturity. Her husband (my friend's son) is 32. And the guy is just another zero to the right of the decimal point.
 
I really feel sorry for my friend since this is her first grandchild and she would like to be an integral part of this baby's life. It seems she has an uphill battle ahead of her.
 
So, the new mother is an adult because she had good sex and gave birth to a child. Right?

[jone]

Absolutely not.  We both know the answer to that, Muzh.

The simple fact is that emotional maturity comes at any age but is usually achieved as we grow older.  However I have seen some people my age who are off the proverbial farm when it comes to maturity (some on this forum) but I would gauge both of my children to have an extreme amount of maturity.

And maturity is meted in different fashions.  Some people have social skills that cannot be equaled.  Others, and I maintain young people, have maturity that they choose not to date until they have met initial financial goals.  Both of these attributes displayed are considered to be emotional maturity.  And both are, hopefully, found in our spouse.  We expect that he/she will be considerate of other people.  And we also hope that a spouse will not go out and spend the mortgage on a new dress or a prized shotgun.

Unfortunately, part of the American society today is that of entitlement.  "I am owed the perfect spouse."  or "I am owed this standard of living."

There is absolutely no dispute that an age disparate marriage faces challenges that two people who grew up to the same favorite music artists will not experience.   But there is a possibility of success.  And I would honor the ability to decide and handle that risk to those involved.

And just so you know, one of my favorite bands growing up was Oingo Boingo.  Any takers?

[Muzh]

I know you get it. 

[Jumper]

Not even close to what I was saying.
 
Let's say you are 45+ yo. No matter how much you wish it for a 21 yo woman, compared to you, is not an adult in the same league as you. I hope.
 
I was just talking to a good friend who just became a grandma. She is very sad because her daughter-in-law appears to be an emotional basket case from hell. As she told me, She is only 23 so I attribute it to immaturity. Her husband (my friend's son) is 32. And the guy is just another zero to the right of the decimal point.
 
I really feel sorry for my friend since this is her first grandchild and she would like to be an integral part of this baby's life. It seems she has an uphill battle ahead of her.
 
So, the new mother is an adult because she had good sex and gave birth to a child. Right?

So the 32 year old man is?


Muzh, I do see you're point, its certainly valid.
You seem to be missing mine though..
*shrugs*


I never stated that the older man in such a relationship shouldn't be supportive, or add valuable guidance.
(I actually stated that is the case  regardless his wifes age )
I said i see little to  no indication that a husband here hasn't been that way,
and equally no indication here that any *given* young woman would find it in a man more her age, or be truly open to it, regardless her husbands age.

[BillyB]

I honestly don't care what AW or AM or RM or other RW think of me and my choices in life, cause if I did I could of never be as happy as I am.

Lots of speculation here. People are hungry for facts so here they are. I remember reading Lena's posts, including the one above, and in her posts I could see intelligence, pride in living in America, and a satisfaction with her choices in life that led to her happiness. I've never read her as a negative and unhappy person. She's even defended her husband and is proud he comes here to help others. How she acted here should be a reflection of what went on in her real life.


 I believe Ken when he said he had many happy years with Lena. With that chapter in their lives closed, we should let Ken and Lena move on with their lives in peace without stirring the pot any further. Ken originally came to this thread to share his happiness with his new wife. Instead he had to defend his previous marriage and watch his ex wife get beat down and labeled.

[TheTraveler]

Lots of speculation here. People are hungry for facts so here they are. I remember reading Lena's posts, including the one above, and in her posts I could see intelligence, pride in living in America, and a satisfaction with her choices in life that led to her happiness. I've never read her as a negative and unhappy person. She's even defended her husband and is proud he comes here to help others. How she acted here should be a reflection of what went on in her real life.


 I believe Ken when he said he had many happy years with Lena. With that chapter in their lives closed, we should let Ken and Lena move on with their lives in peace without stirring the pot any further. Ken originally came to this thread to share his happiness with his new wife. Instead he had to defend his previous marriage and watch his ex wife get beat down and labeled.

a really great, great post, billy!

[GregfromGa]

a really great, great post, billy!

+1.   You hit the nail on the head.   Ken would bring more to this place with a couple of posts than some here in their entire miserable existence here. There are just a few here that bring absolutely nothing to the table. They are not informative, not funny, not remotely entertaining in any way.

[fathertime]

+1.   You hit the nail on the head.   Ken would bring more to this place with a couple of posts than some here in their entire miserable existence here. There are just a few here that bring absolutely nothing to the table. They are not informative, not funny, not remotely entertaining in any way.

I hope KenC continues his posting also, he brings a very good and unique perspective.   Yeah it really is disgusting that a few posters decided to intentionally attempt to deride his past relationship.  Once the door is opened I could see bringing up legit issues, but clearly that wasn't the intention of several angry posters. 


Based on what he has posted it sounded like he had a nice long relationship that eventually ran it's course.  People move on and start anew as it sounds like happened here.


Fathertime!   

[GregfromGa]

I hope KenC continues his posting also, he brings a very good and unique perspective.   Yeah it really is disgusting that a few posters decided to intentionally attempt to deride his past relationship.  Once the door is opened I could see bringing up legit issues, but clearly that wasn't the intention of several angry posters. 


Based on what he has posted it sounded like he had a nice long relationship that eventually ran it's course.  People move on and start anew as it sounds like happened here.


Fathertime!   

There certainly is no science to this. I do hope that KenC hangs around here. Granted me and him didn't always see eye to eye some 7 or 8 years ago but I always respected him and his efforts to help open unsuspecting eyes to this endeavor. Unless you have actually lived with a RW/UW in the USA then it's really hard to weigh in on some of these matters.

[Misha]

The implication seems the situation of support and guidance of a child or adolescent ,is little  different than those of an adult?

I certainly am supportive of my wife in every way,
 I hardly treat her like a I do my son though.As certainly she is no child and has a much more developed idea of self, of who she is, and what she wants.

Exactly. One can support, provide guidance, explain why you believe one option is better than the other, but at the end of a day, she has the right to decide to do what she wants and that is true if she is 21, 31, 41, 51 or 101. If she disagrees, what is a husband supposed do, send her to her room for a time-out?

Does a younger person require more guidance or support?Generally yes, but certainly not true of all cases.

Yes, and trying to impose "guidance" on a young woman because you believe her to be immature simply because she is young would come across as a combination of paternalism, chauvinism, sexism...

I also do not see any husbands here that did not support their wives or guide them towards success in their wishes.
The comparisons seem invalid.

I agree wholeheartedly. You can support, you can provide your point of view, but you can't dictate what another adult no matter her age will do. By extension, then, to blame one for what another adult failed to do is quite a stretch IMVHO.

[Faux Pas]

Of course I don't have any figures, I've no idea where they might be found but, a fair number of women that marry a foreigner  even the much younger ones are already divorced from a RM or UM. Those women count or no, as far as diminished value?

[Wayne]

I agree with what Billy wrote! It seems like Lena and Ken were both happy together for most of their years together. If I remember what Ken told me correctly, they moved away from the Detroit area and into Southern California. I think he also moved his business. He changed his lifestyle to make things better for the both of them. [/font][/size]
 
I am glad to see that Ken is doing better and happy with his new wife. I always thought that Lena is a good and honest person, and I wish her well.

[vwrw]

Relax guys. Ken is not that type of person who would be discouraged from participating by a few people who do not approve his choice. He have been fighting the opposition for years. He knows how to deal with it .  So relax.

[Muzh]

Exactly. One can support, provide guidance, explain why you believe one option is better than the other, but at the end of a day, she has the right to decide to do what she wants and that is true if she is 21, 31, 41, 51 or 101. If she disagrees, what is a husband supposed do, send her to her room for a time-out?
 

Doesn't she? Of course she does. Now, don't go sending anyone to her room.

Yes, and trying to impose "guidance" on a young woman because you believe her to be immature simply because she is young would come across as a combination of paternalism, chauvinism, sexism...

LMAO
 
Couldn't say it better.
 

I agree wholeheartedly. You can support, you can provide your point of view, but you can't dictate what another adult no matter her age will do. By extension, then, to blame one for what another adult failed to do is quite a stretch IMVHO.

Yep, but it happens. Just look at the trainwrecks describing how "bad" she was, which are plenty on these forums.
 
I read all these queries from them guys buying into the MOB fallacy about how to protect themselves when the shit hits the fan and how the mavens come to their rescue by instructing them how to protect themselves and I can't help but to scratch my head when the issue is raised somewhere else and suddenly there is 'no problem,' it is just a misunderstanding. Or better yet, a nice swim in the waters of that Egyptian river.

[Misha]

Yep, but it happens. Just look at the trainwrecks describing how "bad" she was, which are plenty on these forums.

Yes, and the train wreck happens if the woman is young or if she is not quite so young. And, the unrealistic expectations are not solely limited to the men either in my experience, based not solely on fora but also interacting with both men and women who married overseas.
 

I read all these queries from them guys buying into the MOB fallacy about how to protect themselves when the shit hits the fan and how the mavens come to their rescue by instructing them how to protect themselves and I can't help but to scratch my head when the issue is raised somewhere else and suddenly there is 'no problem,' it is just a misunderstanding. Or better yet, a nice swim in the waters of that Egyptian river.

I don't really see how this is tied to anything that is under discussion. What was implied is that somehow women don't make choices are that there is only one ideal path to success and happiness that must be defined in a very narrow way.

[Muzh]

Yes, and the train wreck happens if the woman is young or if she is not quite so young. And, the unrealistic expectations are not solely limited to the men either in my experience, based not solely on fora but also interacting with both men and women who married overseas.
 

Of course. It is not the men only who have unrealistic expectations.

Actually, I blame all women for having unrealistic expectations. Why on earth would they be brought up thinking they would grow up to be married and live happily ever after? DUH! Talk about being oblivious.

I don't really see how this is tied to anything that is under discussion. What was implied is that somehow women don't make choices are that there is only one ideal path to success and happiness that must be defined in a very narrow way.

I'm getting a little concerned here. Lately, you have been unable to grasp what you previously wrote. Get some rest.
 

[Misha]

Of course. It is not the men only who have unrealistic expectations.

Actually, I blame all women for having unrealistic expectations. Why on earth would they be brought up thinking they would grow up to be married and live happily ever after? DUH! Talk about being oblivious.

Sure, if their goals were defined as finding a good husband and striving together to live a happy life, then that would be reasonable. However, in once obvious case that I know, she has many provisos added to the mix including that he be very tall, attractive, her age, rich, capable of entertaining her that would include a few trips to tropical destinations per year.... Russian friends tried to set her up, but they were never perfect, and consequently she is still single and calls my wife every so often to complain about how bad her life is...

 

I'm getting a little concerned here. Lately, you have been unable to grasp what you previously wrote. Get some rest.

I have no problems understanding what I write, but it is sometimes a challenge to cut through the implied innuendo mixed in with veiled sarcasm and derision that too often characterizes what is posted by some here...

[KenC]

Thanks Billy, you said it all correctly.

Yep, but it happens. Just look at the trainwrecks describing how "bad" she was, which are plenty on these forums.

Interestingly, I got a ton of crap because I refused to do this.  I think people just enjoy hearing the bad and ignore the good.

[Muzh]

Thanks Billy, you said it all correctly.Interestingly, I got a ton of crap because I refused to do this.  I think people just enjoy hearing the bad and ignore the good.

Heh, how can you miss it when they write in 18 size font and highlight it in blazing red?
 
Edit: Let me clarify. I am not saying you wrote in 18 size font and highlighted it in blazing red. I really don't know much of your story and I have no desire in going back to read a saga. However, there are plenty of newbies that should really not be doing this at all. They have some serious social issues at home so imagine how it would be when you throw in the complexities of another set of cultural values and a foreign language.

[Jumper]

I'll not bother with explaining why the posts were removed.



Size 18 red font should make it clear enough.
 

[fathertime]

Thanks Billy, you said it all correctly.Interestingly, I got a ton of crap because I refused to do this.  I think people just enjoy hearing the bad and ignore the good.

I  have to agree...lots of focus on any story that can be spun negatively...just a bad habit...I'd say most stories/experiences are positive, and most people go into this with good intentions...even when a divorce occurs...


Fathertime!