Protesters in Ukraine remind us of the priceless benefits of being EU members

[Muzh]

Off topic, but my MIL was just now talking to her other daughter in Moscow and her husband in the background. Now, I don't speak any Russian and they not much English (but I'm pretty surprised how much English and Norwegian my MIL has picked up over the past months she's been here), but the daughter said "I love Putin" and her husband said "Moscow never sleeps", hehe. By  the way, they're Crimeans by birth.

Heh. Why don't you ask your MIL how the Russians from the far east feel about this?

[Muzh]

The stakes are high indeed, and located far away from Europe. Global game is going on.
China begins to seek allies: http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/846263.shtml#.Uxl7Hts4zQF

Is this before or after the massive land grab?

[Gylden]

Actually this is a "lead in" to Japan getting back the Kuril, China getting back a part of Siberia and Germany getting back Konigsberg.

 

[Muzh]

Actually this is a "lead in" to Japan getting back the Kuril, China getting back a part of Siberia and Germany getting back Konigsberg.

 

 
Shhh! Someone might hear you. 

[Belvis]

The haste with which this all came together reminds me, quite honestly, of stabbing your best friend in the back because he owes you $50.00 and smells like the 1991 Coup that deposed Gorbachev.  The repercussions of having a government in Kyiv that hates Russia's intervention will be a continuing thorn in Putin's side. 

A thorn in Putin's side would appear only if blood  has been shed in this conflict. Otherwise many ukrainians with anti russian sentiment would like to get rid of Crimea because they view its population as a threat and barrier to united pro-European Ukraine. At least I heard such arguments in discussions with ukrainians at fora.

[Belvis]

Actually this is a "lead in" to Japan getting back the Kuril, China getting back a part of Siberia and Germany getting back Konigsberg.

 

Well, the world is imperfect indeed. And Germany has the rights on Konigsberg, no doubts.

[Muzh]

A thorn in Putin's side would appear only if blood  has been shed in this conflict. Otherwise many ukrainians with anti russian sentiment would like to get rid of Crimea because they view its population as a threat and barrier to united pro-European Ukraine. At least I heard such arguments in discussions with ukrainians at fora.

Well, that says a lot.

[jone]

I can actually agree with the hodgepodge of opinions here but, at the end of the day the dilemma and the answer to it is pretty simplistic. The dilemma is, Putin wants Ukraine to answer to him. Unlikely he will back down from this point/demand and withdraw on his own. The answer is, to let him have it or drive him out. I don't see anyone winning in that scenario unless Ukraine and the West back off and let him have it. Then the only winner in Putin. The alternative is that nobody wins.

FP,

I think you're mixing your arguments.

Putin wants Kyiv to answer to him:  Therefore he put together a hurried campaign to annex Crimea? 

Ans:  There is no logic there.  If he takes Crimea at the point of a sword, there is no chance in the world that Kyiv will EVER answer to him.  Kyiv may be intimidated by him, but anyone who has been to Ukraine will tell you that  these people will unify in the face of aggression. 

A better analogy would be:

By taking Crimea, Putin is demonstrating to Ukraine that it's continued existence depends on Russia's goodwill.  This dovetails with his continued disruption through agitators in Eastern Ukraine (whom I believe will be weeded out).  My ongoing belief is that there will be SIGNIFICANT push back when the story is finally outed.  This is not Hungary or Czechoslovakia.  Ukraine is an independent country with a substantial military presence.  When the bloom is off the rose and the rest of Ukraine finds out exactly how Crimea was taken over, the country will not be too friendly to Russia any more. 

Imagine the US grabbing Victoria and Vancouver Island from Canada?  Canada would no longer be friendly to the US.  Make all the analogies you want.  Many Ukrainians had vacation homes and plans in Crimea.  They are going to be pretty upset.

[Noch1]

What is amusing, because of Russia's interference, Ukraine will get more far faster than they every imagined from the west. Money, better, faster trade deal, possible, even visa's free travel to Europe.
They don't need sanctions, yes Russia, will end up with Kyrm, Kiev will advance far quicker than
anyone could imagine.

[Faux Pas]

FP,

I think you're mixing your arguments.

Putin wants Kyiv to answer to him:  Therefore he put together a hurried campaign to annex Crimea? 

Ans:  There is no logic there.  If he takes Crimea at the point of a sword, there is no chance in the world that Kyiv will EVER answer to him.  Kyiv may be intimidated by him, but anyone who has been to Ukraine will tell you that  these people will unify in the face of aggression. 

A better analogy would be:

By taking Crimea, Putin is demonstrating to Ukraine that it's continued existence depends on Russia's goodwill.  This dovetails with his continued disruption through agitators in Eastern Ukraine (whom I believe will be weeded out).  My ongoing belief is that there will be SIGNIFICANT push back when the story is finally outed.  This is not Hungary or Czechoslovakia.  Ukraine is an independent country with a substantial military presence.  When the bloom is off the rose and the rest of Ukraine finds out exactly how Crimea was taken over, the country will not be too friendly to Russia any more. 

Imagine the US grabbing Victoria and Vancouver Island from Canada?  Canada would no longer be friendly to the US.  Make all the analogies you want.  Many Ukrainians had vacation homes and plans in Crimea.  They are going to be pretty upset.

What makes you think Putin will stop at Crimea or that he gives one wit what the Ukrainians think of him or Russia. The Ukrainian military has no chance to ward off or defeat a Russian military. IMHO, Putin is testing the waters. If he can get away with Crimea, he can get it all and he knows it.

Furthermore IMHO, Putin wants his will emphasized in Kiev as well as Crimea. Whatever it takes for him to achieve that end is what he'll do.

[lordtiberius]

Putin has miscalculated.  He does not have the home front or can fight the way Hitler did 70 years ago.  He can barely invade Georgia.  Its what happens when you bubble up

[The Natural]

What is amusing, because of Russia's interference, Ukraine will get more far faster than they every imagined from the west. Money, better, faster trade deal, possible, even visa's free travel to Europe.
They don't need sanctions, yes Russia, will end up with Kyrm, Kiev will advance far quicker than
anyone could imagine.

Not so amusing as you think, I think. Ukraine will get more business, sure. But it will be business from foreigners that will profit from the land and the money, it will be expensive money paid in interest by the Ukrainians for decades to come. Visa free travels for the well-off, taxes to be paid for foreign loans for everybody else.

What makes you think Putin will stop at Crimea or that he gives one wit what the Ukrainians think of him or Russia.

And what makes anybody think the US gives one wit about Ukraine? It's just a stepping stone necessary to get to the greatest prize of all, Russia.

[fathertime]

So how do you read a head of state questioning the 'sense of reality' of another head of state very publicly?
 
Just another member of a forum ranting off her mouth?
 
Seriously, what is that you see when wearing his shoes?

 
I think you have mischaracterized what Merkel actually said.  I think you are repeating something propaganda that was 'leaked' by someone in Obama's office. Although if you can provide me her quote in context, that could change my opinion. 


By implying that Putin is crazy, it becomes 'label time' here again and it also provides an excuse to brush aside the real issues. 


Fathertime! 

[jone]

FP,

Let's take a step back.  What we are seeing is the Russian backlash against a nation that changed its course away from Russian political hegemony.  While Russia may maintain cultural hegemony with Ukraine, I doubt that it will, in the future, have dominance over what Kyiv does or says.  Europe and the US are now paying for the debts incurred by Ukraine for energy.  So the leverage that Russia has over Ukraine is its military advantage. 

I think that advantage is played out now.  Assuming Krim alligns with Russia, then there would have to be action by one of the parliaments in the Eastern regions to have Russia send in troops.  Ain't gonna happen.  Russia is left with saber rattling.

Ukraine, on the other hand, is now pushed by the precipitous actions of Russia into a pro-Western stance.  Assuming that Ukraine remembers what has happened this month, I don't see them veering from this stance.  Especially without the Russian voters from Krim.

Ultimately, Ukraine becomes another Poland.  While it may not be active in a NATO environment, it will be ever vigilant to protect its citizenry from the bear next door.

I see the entire exercise of annexing Krim into Russia as a wake-up call for a nation that will now do everything to make sure something like this doesn't happen again.  Like a person who has lost a limb to cancer, Ukraine will never stop worrying that it will lose another limb and make sure it goes in to the doctor for regular checkups. 

[fathertime]

A thorn in Putin's side would appear only if blood  has been shed in this conflict. Otherwise many ukrainians with anti russian sentiment would like to get rid of Crimea because they view its population as a threat and barrier to united pro-European Ukraine. At least I heard such arguments in discussions with ukrainians at fora.

This is along the lines of my thinking.  I can see how it would be in Ukraine's interests to let Crimea go.  Then Russia has to deal with the ensuing unrest. 


Fathertime! 

[The Natural]

My wife is angry about the anti Russian propaganda and so is her mother. She ask me why is all the world against Russia. I tell her China support Russia. She replies: "That's not enough", hehe. I understand. And long before I met her, I understood that Our ally, the USA, is not anymore the Picture Perfect example of virtues of what we should strive for, like in the movies. Maybe it was in the 50's. Maybe it even was under the Kennedy administration, I think so. It certainly wasn't from the Johnston administration and forward as it grew like a monster into THE EMPIRE.

Nixon With his increased efforts to an outside enemy and internial wiretaps. Then the US somehow regained it's senses With the intelligent and diplomatic president of Jimmy Carter, but no... that could not stand. They needed a strong and nationalistic leader so they voted in Ronald Reagan. After a period of tough talking even he realized more was at stake and he started to talk to the evil empire and we got rid of the Soviet Union. But then what did we get? We got the Bush Family. Hell bent on using the greatest military force on Earth to create Mayhem around the world and making fortunes for his friends. Clinton is obviously charismatic and a likeable figure but Bush junior was a disaster for USA. This prat continued what his father left and as a result the entire arabic world now hates USA. Now the US complains it has a weak president! It has a black (he's half white) president and many thinks him weak because he don't send war ships to the Crimea!!!!

Listen all Americans: we in the west of Europe has for many decades jumped when ordered from Washington because they are the big boy in the class. Maybe, just maybe, another big boy in another class, has decided not to jump, but to fight. I wait in anticipation to see which Americans might be humble enough to realize that they don't have a monopoly of what's wrong or right.
I don't want the Russian system in my own country With it's corruption, but I neither want the American system of getting goodies from familiar sources, use the info and stick it to the workers!

[lordtiberius]

This entire discussion assumes both Russia and Crimea or at least Russo-Crimea is on board with Putin.  We don't know that they are instead we have increasing evidence that they are not.

I ask both reader and commentator to consider the consequences and morality of Putin's action that he does not have popular support.

[Gylden]

Hi Natural,

Your wife is right and I said it before myself. Some people are trying to make all of this a Russia against Ukraine thing. It's not, It is all about corruption and cronyism. This is the old diversion trick, to choose up sides.
I believe MOST Ukrainians and Russians really like and identify with each other. It is the leaders who have absconded with plenty of the peoples money in very corrupt ways which is the core issue here.
Look at the politicians net worth both before and after their respective political carriers (and their families/friends).

[The Natural]

Hi Natural,

Your wife is right and I said it before myself. Some people are trying to make all of this a Russia against Ukraine thing. It's not, It is all about corruption and cronyism. This is the old diversion trick, to choose up sides.
I believe MOST Ukrainians and Russians really like and identify with each other. It is the leaders who have absconded with plenty of the peoples money in very corrupt ways which is the core issue here.
Look at the politicians net worth both before and after their respective political carriers (and their families/friends).

Yes, sometimes I mix up things and it's Ukraine, Russia and all mixed up together. Not talking on behalf of my wife though, I want to say this though, my good American/Norwegian friend:

1. We are fed up With the western style propaganda and how the media always poirtrays the happenings like the politicians want
2. We are fed up With the world improvers, the US, always meddling in everybody's affairs
3. We are fed up of foreigners talking about corruption when they are supporting equally corrupt individuals in Kiev

I know you Gylden as a reasonable man. Whatever you may think of this situation, I'm pretty sure some of this rings true to you.

[JayH]

Yes, sometimes I mix up things and it's Ukraine, Russia and all mixed up together. Not talking on behalf of my wife though, I want to say this though, my good American/Norwegian friend:

1. We are fed up With the western style propaganda and how the media always poirtrays the happenings like the politicians want
Being fed up does not have anything to do with current situation-do you not understand that Russian media is portraying totally distorted view of what has happened in the Crimea ?
2. We are fed up With the world improvers, the US, always meddling in everybody's affairs
The US had very little to do with Putin invading Ukraine--now the US has obligations under nuclear disarmament programs to fulfill ie preserve Ukraine borders-- an agreement the Russians just broke.
3. We are fed up of foreigners talking about corruption when they are supporting equally corrupt individuals in Kiev
Recent events have seen a new direction and a real chance for change-- you would have to be joking if you believe Moscow is any better historically with corruption rampant.

I know you Gylden as a reasonable man. Whatever you may think of this situation, I'm pretty sure some of this rings true to you.

[Faux Pas]

Not so amusing as you think, I think. Ukraine will get more business, sure. But it will be business from foreigners that will profit from the land and the money, it will be expensive money paid in interest by the Ukrainians for decades to come. Visa free travels for the well-off, taxes to be paid for foreign loans for everybody else.

And what makes anybody think the US gives one wit about Ukraine? It's just a stepping stone necessary to get to the greatest prize of all, Russia.

Roy, are you implying that the U.S. wishes to invade Russia?

Yes, sometimes I mix up things and it's Ukraine, Russia and all mixed up together. Not talking on behalf of my wife though, I want to say this though, my good American/Norwegian friend:

1. We are fed up With the western style propaganda and how the media always poirtrays the happenings like the politicians want
2. We are fed up With the world improvers, the US, always meddling in everybody's affairs
3. We are fed up of foreigners talking about corruption when they are supporting equally corrupt individuals in Kiev

I know you Gylden as a reasonable man. Whatever you may think of this situation, I'm pretty sure some of this rings true to you.

Roy you seem to be going over the deep end there old friend. Put down the kool-aid and back away there guy.
All national and international news media nowadays is propaganda for one cause or the other. People believe what they choose to believe. If you choose to believe the Putin's side of events, there's nothing I can or wish to do to change that. Get you some 

[GQBlues]

This is the hardly seen/heard interview of Vlad. Putin explaining in details that activities surrounding the present events in Ukraine from his/Russia's POV that most western media didn't show.


http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2014/03/04/full_video_vladimir_putin_holds_press_conference_on_ukraine_crisis.html

[pitbull]

The first really thought out analysis I've encountered on the topic to date. The voice of reason, finally


http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/henry-kissinger-to-settle-the-ukraine-crisis-start-at-the-end/2014/03/05/46dad868-a496-11e3-8466-d34c451760b9_story.html

[JayH]

This is the hardly seen/heard interview of Vlad. Putin explaining in details that activities surrounding the present events in Ukraine from his/Russia's POV that most western media didn't show.


http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2014/03/04/full_video_vladimir_putin_holds_press_conference_on_ukraine_crisis.html

The first really thought out analysis I've encountered on the topic to date. The voice of reason, finally


http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/henry-kissinger-to-settle-the-ukraine-crisis-start-at-the-end/2014/03/05/46dad868-a496-11e3-8466-d34c451760b9_story.html

Both stories and links have been posted earlier in the thread.
I urge those coming to the thread to read earlier posts-there  is a lot of material and links already posted-- and often discussion of them.

[cc3]

My wife is angry about the anti Russian propaganda and so is her mother. She ask me why is all the world against Russia. I tell her China support Russia. She replies: "That's not enough", hehe. I understand. And long before I met her, I understood that Our ally, the USA, is not anymore the Picture Perfect example of virtues of what we should strive for, like in the movies. Maybe it was in the 50's. Maybe it even was under the Kennedy administration, I think so. It certainly wasn't from the Johnston administration and forward as it grew like a monster into THE EMPIRE.

Nixon With his increased efforts to an outside enemy and internial wiretaps. Then the US somehow regained it's senses With the intelligent and diplomatic president of Jimmy Carter, but no... that could not stand. They needed a strong and nationalistic leader so they voted in Ronald Reagan. After a period of tough talking even he realized more was at stake and he started to talk to the evil empire and we got rid of the Soviet Union. But then what did we get? We got the Bush Family. Hell bent on using the greatest military force on Earth to create Mayhem around the world and making fortunes for his friends. Clinton is obviously charismatic and a likeable figure but Bush junior was a disaster for USA. This prat continued what his father left and as a result the entire arabic world now hates USA. Now the US complains it has a weak president! It has a black (he's half white) president and many thinks him weak because he don't send war ships to the Crimea!!!!

Listen all Americans: we in the west of Europe has for many decades jumped when ordered from Washington because they are the big boy in the class. Maybe, just maybe, another big boy in another class, has decided not to jump, but to fight. I wait in anticipation to see which Americans might be humble enough to realize that they don't have a monopoly of what's wrong or right.
I don't want the Russian system in my own country With it's corruption, but I neither want the American system of getting goodies from familiar sources, use the info and stick it to the workers!

Most of your diatribe is almost always anti-American. You deserve the Russian domination coming your way if the US reverts to full isolationism, totally separated from Europe.