Protesters in Ukraine remind us of the priceless benefits of being EU members

[Muzh]

ML,

To answer your question, JustMe100 stated that the Russian people admire Putin for lying to the world.  I found her answer to be in line with old Soviet doctrine.  She believed that if Putin spit in the face of everyone listening to him, that he would be raised in the esteem of those he represented.

Now we have members here justifying the lies. 

And finally, we have a member here, who in his sober moments is usually very careful in what he says, calling for the elimination of the free press in Russia, claiming that the Moscow Times spreads lies and should be banned.  (Still can't figure how this rationalization came about.)

These are certainly unusual times in which we live.  If someone would have told me at the start of the Sochi Olympics that we would be here, now, I would have thought the person totally bereft of reality.

*********

Ahem, careful. Someone might say that you are being brainwashed by the Angela Merkel's propaganda machine. 

[Muzh]

Complete withdrawal of American forces from western Europe. Transfer them to Poland, Czech Republic and Baltic nations, where the real threat exists.

That's your solution, eh? Let's duke it out?
 
You may have been a marine, but you were nothing but a grunt.
 
Thank God!!!
 
 

[Gator]

BIG PICTURE, LONG-TERM

In the past, Russia seemed placated with Ukraine  provided pro-Russian candidates were in power, or at least had enough constituents to negate extreme measures such as Ukraine joining NATO.   Crimea becoming part of Russia, a fait accompli,  changes this.  Election outcomes in Ukraine will change dramatically now that Crimea will no longer vote.   

Future elections without the pro-Russian Crimean voters will pull Ukraine more to the West.  Putin will not like the pro-western outcome and its implications, eventually compelling him to takeover western Ukraine.  The question is not if but when does Russia move into western Ukraine, and how much territory do they consolidate with Crimea.  

When this happens, I imagine Europe will become very proactive in rebuilding the economy of eastern Ukraine.   This will cost Europe far less in aid than if Europe tried to rebuild all of Ukraine. Of greater significance, Europe will have an even more pro-western ally between it and Russia. 

So maybe Europe is doing nothing substantive today to challenge Putin because a reduced Ukraine is best for Europe over the long term.  The European protests today are merely Uncle Remus's Brer Rabbit pleading, "Brer Fox, please don't throw me into the briar patch."

The Soviets and West divided Germany in 1945, and we know the economic result.  Does the same fate await Crimea and western Ukraine? 

 

[Muzh]

The reality is that some have no ability to think independently and rely on cheap propaganda fed to them.



By the way I find offensive any connection between desire of many Ukrainians live in independent state and political movements seeking to revive Nazism.

What happens when there is a lack of facts on a debate, the best way to put down a dissenting opinion is by issuing offensive labels. This way the argument is steered somewhere else, as in defending against the label.
 
Edit to add: Open letter of Ukrainian Jews to Russian Federation President Vladimir Putin

[Gator]

JayH,

I sense your zeal and outrage.  There is little that the West can do to compel Russia to withdraw from Crimea even if Putin were reasonable.  And Putin is not reasonable.

Furthermore, Europe will benefit from a smaller Ukraine:

1.  A smaller Ukraine will cost much less in aid to rebuild the economy.

2.  A smaller Ukraine will be become a close ally with Europe.

I explain the above here:   http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17005.msg360762#msg360762

[Muzh]

No, I did not joke, I red Constitution of Ukraine and know the legal wayS to transfer power. Specially for you I remind them:
1) Election. Opposition prefered to hire snipers than wait a few months  to remove Yanukovich
 

Now, who's spreading propaganda? Did you bother reading the Estonian was disccussing possible scenarioS with Ms. Ashton? Did you also read where the Ukrainian Doctor denied ever saying such to the Estonian envoy and that she ONLY treated the demonstrators NOT the police?
 
Small details, eh? Who cares if they get in the way of a good rumor?
 

2) Voluntary resignation. Very likely way if opposition stopped casting threats to president.
2) Impeachment. Procedure was not done as written in Constitution.
3) Death. Easiest way to settle legal problems but Yanukovich seems to not agree.

Oh Puh leeze. Cry me a river. He was scared out of the country? Sure. A ha. Along with his entourage and billion$$$ and expensive cars and his girlfriend and..., well, all the goodies most dictators run away with when the people get pissed off at them.
 

I would like to see truly independent Ukraine, and Russian leaders claimed it many times. Russia is interested to have economically strong partner who is able to pay his debts.  I saw no russian troops in Ukraine for the last  23 years to prevent people from the path they choose. 

Truly independent, eh? Like it was before, right?
 

I also hope you're not expecting Putin should suppress these meetings. Enough, that he does not support them:

Donetsk, 9 March 2014



Lugansk, 9 March 2014



Kharkov, 8 March 2014

I didn't know Belogrod was part of Donetsk. 

[Muzh]

BIG PICTURE, LONG-TERM

In the past, Russia seemed placated with Ukraine  provided pro-Russian candidates were in power, or at least had enough constituents to negate extreme measures such as Ukraine joining NATO.   Crimea becoming part of Russia, a fait accompli,  changes this.  Election outcomes in Ukraine will change dramatically now that Crimea will no longer vote.   

Future elections without the pro-Russian Crimean voters will pull Ukraine more to the West.  Putin will not like the pro-western outcome and its implications, eventually compelling him to takeover western Ukraine.  The question is not if but when does Russia move into western Ukraine, and how much territory do they consolidate with Crimea.

When this happens, I imagine Europe will become very proactive in rebuilding the economy of eastern Ukraine.   This will cost Europe far less in aid than if Europe tried to rebuild all of Ukraine. Of greater significance, Europe will have an even more pro-western ally between it and Russia. 

So maybe Europe is doing nothing substantive today to challenge Putin because a reduced Ukraine is best for Europe over the long term.  The European protests today are merely Uncle Remus's Brer Rabbit pleading, "Brer Fox, please don't throw me into the briar patch."

The Soviets and West divided Germany in 1945, and we know the economic result.  Does the same fate await Crimea and western Ukraine?

Psst. Try the old switheroo. Russia will move to eastern Ukraine and Europe will become very proactive in rebuilding the economy of western Ukraine.

[Muzh]

JayH,

I sense your zeal and outrage.  There is little that the West can do to compel Russia to withdraw from Crimea even if Putin were reasonable.  And Putin is not reasonable.

Furthermore, Europe will benefit from a smaller Ukraine:

1.  A smaller Ukraine will cost much less in aid to rebuild the economy.

2.  A smaller Ukraine will be become a close ally with Europe.

I explain the above here:   http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17005.msg360762#msg360762

True.
 
Still it will not soothe the pain in many Ukrainians.

[Gator]

True.
 
Still it will not soothe the pain in many Ukrainians.

You are correct for Ukrainians living in Crimea and eastern Ukraine.  And it is harmful to Russians also. 

For Ukrainians living in east Ukraine, life will improve.  I cite East Germany vs. West Germany.   And more recently, Cyprus.  Time has a way of washing away the initial tears of those aligned with the West.

As far as the Ukrainians living in Russian controlled Ukraine, life will not be as good.  Some could contend that Russia could make Crimea a tourist attraction, yet after spending $50 billion in Sochi, does Russia have the funds for such. 

Can the industrial base in west Ukraine compete in free trade without much upgrading, and will Russia invest there vs. mother Russia?  Seemingly the agricultural base of Ukraine probably will benefit from European investments.  I don't know if this is true, and I would appreciate any insights regarding economic potential of west Ukraine, east Ukraine and Crimea.

For sure Putin is nudging Russia towards isolation when the world is becoming more interconnected.  That is not good for Russians, especially as fracking of shale gas in Poland and other initiatives reduce Europe's reliance on Russian gas.  Putin's vision is shortsighted, yet it keeps him in power, enabling he and his cronies to enrich themselves to unearthly levels over the short term.

[Muzh]

As far as the Ukrainians living in Russian controlled Ukraine, life will not be as good.  Some could contend that Russia could make Crimea a tourist attraction, yet after spending $50 billion in Sochi, does Russia have the funds for such. 

Even today, Sochi is still "undiscovered" and it appears it will stay that way. I read recently that the Olympics did not generate the same attaction to Sochi as it has done in previous Olympic venues. And now with this debacle.
 
Annexation of Crimea will incite the volatile and unpredictable jihadists. The Black Sea will most probably turn to a war zone. Be forewarned that tensions between Russia and Turkey will get hot if there's unrest in that area.
 

Can the industrial base in east Ukraine compete in free trade without much upgrading, and will Russia invest there vs. mother Russia?  Seemingly the agricultural base of Ukraine probably will benefit from European investments.  I don't know if this is true, and I would appreciate any insights regarding economic potential of west Ukraine, east Ukraine and Crimea.
 

Under the assumption that Russia will envelop eastern Ukraine (which they will not) if that were to happen, most if not all the heavy industry in Ukraine will follow the same path as the heavy industries in central and eastern Russia. Basically, non-existent. So they have to kiss free trade with anyone good bye.
 
BTW, that was funny. Russia investing in industries? Hilarious.

 

For sure Putin is nudging Russia towards isolation when the world is becoming more interconnected. That is not good for Russians, especially as fracking of shale gas in Poland and other initiatives reduce Europe's reliance on Russian gas.  Putin's vision is shortsighted, yet it keeps him in power, enabling he and his cronies to enrich themselves to unearthly levels over the short term.

Yep. Can you say propaganda? And it is not in Russia proper. It seems Scandinavia and the low countries are swallowing it whole.
 
It's funny. There's an intern here from Europe and we were discussing some of these issues. As he says, there are people in Europe who will lose a leg in some action that will annoy the USA and they will gladly give the other leg to make sure it really annoy us.

[jone]

Eastern Ukraine will not be part of Russia!

I have said this many times before, but the key event in the timeline for Eastern Ukraine was when the Donetsk Parliament was surrounded by pro-Russian forces and forced to issue a call for a referendum. 

Leadership could have acquiesced and done so.  BUT.  This is the KEY to all of Eastern Ukraine (as Donetsk is the bedrock of Russian nationalism.)

The Donetsk leadership decided that they did NOT want to be annexed at the point of a gun.  So they called for a referendum with no date and not specifying what it was for.  Russia has NO pretense to go into Eastern Ukraine. 

Already the crowds are much smaller than they previously were.  Ukraine is beginning to sort out those people who are agitators brought in from Russia.  Absent some blatant aggression, much more blatant than the strategist Putin has heretofore considered, Eastern Ukraine is safe from a Russian invasion. 

[Gator]

Be forewarned that tensions between Russia and Turkey will get hot if there's unrest in that area.

Another charge of the light brigade.   

 

Under the assumption that Russia will envelop eastern Ukraine (which they will not)

What are the differences between Crimea and western Ukraine other than the Donetsk parliament did not acquiesce?  Maybe Putin recognizes it as a rust belt.  Someone please tell Putin that he can have Detroit. 
 

As he says, there are people in Europe who will lose a leg in some action that will annoy the USA and they will gladly give the other leg to make sure it really annoy us.

     Akin to cutting off nose to spite face. 

They still feel the same after Obama replaced Bush?   Obama placated our past antagonists.   

Actually, the US does not pay as much attention to Europeans as in the past.  We are preoccupied with China and our internal affairs.  And Europe is too expensive for us downsized Americans to visit. 

[jone]

I was thinking we could give him Western Kentucky.  Kinda even sounds the same.

[Gator]

I was thinking we could give him Western Kentucky.  Kinda even sounds the same.

Easy, as a young kid I lived in Hoptown for a couple of years.  35 kids in my first grade, including a 9-yo who was my friend and protector.

[Muzh]

 Be forewarned that tensions between Russia and Turkey will get hot if there's unrest in that area.
 

Another charge of the light brigade.   
 

US Navy's aircraft carrier George Bush arrives in Turkey
 
 

Under the assumption that Russia will envelop eastern Ukraine (which they will not)

What are the differences between Crimea and western Ukraine other than the Donetsk parliament did not acquiesce?  Maybe Putin recognizes it as a rust belt.  Someone please tell Putin that he can have Detroit. 

Maybe because Donetsk is in Eastern Ukraine? And it would be all hell breaking loose Putin rolling tanks into Western Ukraine. As in WWIII. Now, his ruse in Donetsk did NOT work, as Jone's been saying.
 
Here's an interesting article explaining one of the reasons Donetsk Ukrainians saw what was laying ahead. Putin's Neo-Nazi Helpers
 

[GQBlues]

In response to the ever-growing crisis in Ukraine and Russia's continued defiance to Washington's redline ultimatum, the US had taken the first bold step to this crisis. Annoyed the crisis caused a missed appearance in Jimmy Fallon's requested appearance in 'The Tonight Show', President Barrack Obama woke up and gave immediate order to the newly-appointed General Joseph Biden to dispatch the United States most lethal ship to the Black Sea.

The USS Barry Obama:

[Muzh]

In response to the ever-growing crisis in Ukraine and Russia's continued defiance to Washington's redline ultimatum, the US had taken the first bold step to this crisis. Annoyed the crisis caused a missed appearance in Jimmy Fallon's requested appearance in 'The Tonight Show', President Barrack Obama woke up and gave immediate order to the newly-appointed General Joseph Biden to dispatch the United States most lethal ship to the Black Sea.

The USS Barry Obama:

 
 
 

[Gator]

Maybe because Donetsk is in Eastern Ukraine? And it would be all hell breaking loose Putin rolling tanks into Western Ukraine. As in WWIII. Now, his ruse in Donetsk did NOT work, as Jone's been saying.

   Not the first time I made that mistake.  I grew up in the cold war, thinking east was the enemy.  Maybe I am dyslexic.   

[jone]

Easy, as a young kid I lived in Hoptown for a couple of years.  35 kids in my first grade, including a 9-yo who was my friend and protector.

Were you guys the same age?   

[cc3]

That's your solution, eh? Let's duke it out?
 
You may have been a marine, but you were nothing but a grunt.
 
Thank God!!!

Actually an aviator, but to be a Marine grunt would be an honor. Last time I checked, those nations were our NATO allies. Putin has displayed illegal aggression upon a sovereign, unaligned nation. It is not unreasonable to suppose that he will extend his insane behavior to the Baltic nations, who have significant Russian speaking minorities.

Keeping our forces in UK, Germany, and Italy, hundreds of miles west of a possible Russian invasion front, is absurd. Your lack of strategic perspective is not surprising. Your one-liners, in your post, show a certain intellectual dysfunction also. I thought you were more intelligent than your inane post now shows you to be. Or possibly...your philosophical pacifism trumps all other considerations?

[jone]

In response to the ever-growing crisis in Ukraine and Russia's continued defiance to Washington's redline ultimatum, the US had taken the first bold step to this crisis. Annoyed the crisis caused a missed appearance in Jimmy Fallon's requested appearance in 'The Tonight Show', President Barrack Obama woke up and gave immediate order to the newly-appointed General Joseph Biden to dispatch the United States most lethal ship to the Black Sea.

The USS Barry Obama:

I think that this ship might just possibly fit through the Bosphorus Straight.

[Muzh]

Actually an aviator, but to be a Marine grunt would be an honor. Last time I checked, those nations were our NATO allies. Putin has displayed illegal aggression upon a sovereign, unaligned nation. It is not unreasonable to suppose that he will extend his insane behavior to the Baltic nations, who have significant Russian speaking minorities.
 

Do you have an estimated date when Putin will invade Brighton Beach?

Keeping our forces in UK, Germany, and Italy, hundreds of miles west of a possible Russian invasion front, is absurd. Your lack of strategic perspective is not surprising. Your one-liners, in your post, show a certain intellectual dysfunction also. I thought you were more intelligent than your inane post now shows you to be. Or possibly...your philosophical pacifism trumps all other considerations?

Sorry, my intellectual dysfunction is fine, thank you. Just because I do not agree that WE (USA) have to punish everyone that does not behave according to OUR scriptures doesn't make me less intelligent.
 
Actually, an itelligent person would sit down and analyze the situation AND use force as a last resort which basically says volumes of yours.
 
Here's a little fact for you, if you are not aware. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
 
The USA has the world largest and most lethal army. THEREFORE, we do NOT need to flex our muscles just to show we are strong. That is childish behavior. I'm a strong proponent that IF you have to use force, use it to inflict as much hurt, casualties, death, destruction you can inflict. AND since we can do all of the above and MORE, that is why we should be very INTELLIGENT about our approach.
 

[jone]

ACTUALLY .....

China's active military forces are MUCH larger than the US's.   2.285,000 compared to 1,429,995.  Add in the 850,000 active reservists and then you can claim largest in the world.  However, China also has 385,821,101 eligible for service.  So.  There you go.

In comparison:  Russia has 776,000 active and Ukraine has around 130,000 active, but is calling up its reserves.

I would be the first to agree, however, that the US armed forces are the most powerful in the world. 

Source:  Jane's and Wikipedia.

[LAman]

ACTUALLY .....

China's active military forces are MUCH larger than the US's.   2.285,000 compared to 1,429,995.  Add in the 850,000 active reservists and then you can claim largest in the world.  However, China also has 385,821,101 eligible for service.  So.  There you go.

In comparison:  Russia has 776,000 active and Ukraine has around 130,000 active, but is calling up its reserves.

I would be the first to agree, however, that the US armed forces are the most powerful in the world. 

Source:  Jane's and Wikipedia.

Much larger??? Well if using height as a component...that would drop the Chinese forces down ~32.8% 

[dogspot]

Ukraine Deploys Gay Men to Scare Off Russians

Ukraine is planning to march large numbers of gay men into Crimea in hopes of scaring off Russian soldiers currently occupying the territory.

According to local reports this “gay army” will be unarmed and its mission will be to act as flamboyantly homosexual as possible, causing the deeply prejudiced occupying force to flee back to its homeland.

“Russia is one of the most homophobic nations on Earth,” says Ukrainian defense minister Boris Grishenko. “We’re planning to use that fact to our advantage and take back our land.

“Ukraine is a small country. We don’t have a lot of tanks or battleships. And we stupidly gave up our nuclear weapons in the 1990s. But we still have plenty of gays, and if there’s one thing Russians fear more than atomic warfare it’s explicit displays of homosexuality.

“It will start small. Just a simple parade with a few hundred shirtless men. But once the Lady Gaga starts blasting, things are gonna get wild. Hopefully all the pumping, grinding and gyrating will have them headed for the hills.”

In the Navy

Russian soldiers have occupied the Crimean peninsula  following a revolution in Ukraine which swept a pro-European government to power.

Ukraine and the West believe Russia is unlawfully occupying another nation’s territory. Moscow claims it is simply safeguarding the interests of the Russian-speaking population amid the recent turmoil.

Efforts to end the crisis though diplomacy have so far come to naught, as European and American sanctions appear to be having little effect. But interviews with the occupying forces suggest that Ukraine's new strategy just might do the trick.

“It’s not worth it. I’m leaving," says one soldier. "I can take bullets. I can take bombs. But if Ukraine sends any gay people my way I’m going home. I didn't sign up for this shit."

Recruitment for the campaign has reportedly been strong, with nearly half of Kiev's gay male community signed up for the patriotic task of retaking Crimea.

"Fighting homophobia and Putin at the same time? Sign me up," says Victor, a 34-year-old hairdresser. "My partner and I are marching together and we're bringing the full set of butt plugs. I can't wait."

http://dailycurrant.com/2014/03/07/ukraine-deploys-gay-men-to-scare-off-russians/