Protesters in Ukraine remind us of the priceless benefits of being EU members

[Larry1]

The elections of which you speak are widely reported and believed to have been corrupt with lots of ballet box stuffing and mysterious ballet box disappearances.  There were even reports of election officials sleeping on top of ballot boxes to try to protect them.  The Ukrainian elections were not like anything an American or other Westerner would recognize as legitimate.

Except maybe in Chicago.

[SteveOR]

Except maybe in Chicago.

Chicago and Illinois do indeed have a few "issues" with political corruption.  On the positive side at least one Illinois Governor and maybe a Chicago mayor or two have served time for corruption (somebody from Illinois help me out with the hard facts here).  So at least some are held accountable.
 

[Jumper]

Here is the problem. So, to get rid of a "corrupt government" you wait for an election run by the "corrupt government". The people know this and they are not naive.

agreed,
 the last election was a choice between two criminals.The entire bureaucracy is morally and ethically bankrupt.

Most Ukrainian  people realized this was coming, someday,
only a matter of time.

Perhaps an underlying feeling, not unlike a lot of Americans may share.

[Anotherkiwi]

I just don't understand why everyone thinks the protestors are the ones that are right.  They are destroying private and public property when they became violent.  The protestors started a lot of the violence in the past week, not the government. If everyone believes otherwise then the western media is spinning it as usual.

Brillynt, don't be naïve.  Of course protesters are destroying public property - they have to get the regime to take notice that they are serious, because nothing that they have done in the last three months has made any impression at all on Yanukovich.  Nobody will argue with you on this point, but you have to go back to the root cause of why they feel it's necessary to escalate the protests to this level.

I know the flames will be coming my way, but I got tired of just seeing the "Oh the poor poor protestors are being hurt" posts.

When the protests first started, I was on the protestors side of the argument. But this last week has shown to me that they are nothing more then common criminals.

Do you really think that little old ladies who have caught trains and buses to Kyiv from every corner of the country, so that they can be part of the protests in Kyiv, are "nothing more than common criminals?"  Do you think that people who are now fighting for their lives to try to create a better country are "nothing more than common criminals?"

Seriously?

[lonedrake]

This really is tragic. I only see things getting worse.

http://focus.ua/incident/298023/

[SteveOR]

 
Although the mainstream media are stuck on reporting about snipers, the Kyiv Post has reported some interesting developments:
 
The protestors have retaken some ground.  They have pushed the lines back to close to European Square and back up the hill to the October Palace and are rebuilding barricades.
 
At least 60 police and "their hired help" have been captured.  Many are 18 to 19 years old.  They are reporting that they haven't eaten in more than 24 hours.
 
"city administrator Volodymyr Makeenko has announced that he has quit the Party of Regions and is giving an order to open the metro."
 
"According to Interfax-Ukraine news, at least a dozen members of parliament from the pro-presidential Party of Regions have announced their support for "the people of Ukraine" and called on police officers to stop attacking protesters."
 
It's of course a very fluid situation but events like these may (emphasizing "may") mean that the tide is starting to turn. . .
 
 

[Larry1]

Chicago and Illinois do indeed have a few "issues" with political corruption.  On the positive side at least one Illinois Governor and maybe a Chicago mayor or two have served time for corruption (somebody from Illinois help me out with the hard facts here).  So at least some are held accountable.

I think two successive Illinois governors went to jail for corruption.  One was Rod Blagoevich (sp?), who was caught on tape auctioning off the Senate seat Obama vacated when he became president.  I don't remember any Chicago mayors being convicted, but I don't keep close touch with that so there may be one I don't know about.

On the Ukraine situation, this is more ominous news:

WASHINGTON, February 20 (RIA Novosti) – The United States on Thursday harshly condemned Ukrainian authorities’ reported use of automatic weapons against protesters in fresh clashes that have left dozens of people dead.

“We are outraged by the images of Ukrainian security forces firing automatic weapons on their own people,” White House spokesman Jay Carney said in a statement. The statement came amid reports from Kiev that both anti-government protesters and police officers have been shot dead in ongoing violence in which at least 50 people have reportedly been killed.

Eyewitnesses on Twitter and other social media have posted numerous photos apparently showing police officers wielding automatic and sniper rifles. The photographs could not be independently verified.

http://en.ria.ru/world/20140220/187729878/US-Outraged-by-Reports-of-Police-Shooting-at-Protesters-in.html

If the government is deploying snipers and police with automatic weapons with orders to shoot, I'm not sure how a bloodbath can be avoided.  Perhaps Yanukovych should reflect upon the example of Nicolae Ceaucescu in neighboring Romania:



Videotape of the firing squad begins at the 4:30 mark.

[jone]

Yanukovich is insulated in his control of Ukraine.  The Rada had passed various laws reducing the role of the elected representatives from the regions, yielding an almost dictatorial role for the President of Ukraine.  It would be commiserate with the idea of having the Senate and the House only able to rubber stamp what Obama decides.  Accordingly, one of the active debates right now is whether the Rada will re-assume those responsibilities.   The ruling party argues that it no longer has the constitutional right to re-assume them.  While the opposition says that the constitution has been changed by legislation that the country did not agree to.  This is only one of the points of conflict in the conflagration.

Some interesting things I found out:

1.  Yanukovich (or Yanukovych depending on the spelling) is a giant of a man.  He stands 6'4" and towers over other leaders.  Anyone seeing a picture of him with Putin will be amazed at the disparity.

2.  Yanukovich spent time in jail in his late teens and early 20's.  He was arrested and sent to prison for being a thug.  (One member of this forum has taken to calling him Yanuconvict.)

3.  Yanukovich hails from the Donetsk area of Ukraine, but he is really from an outlying area.  This area is firmly in the 'Russian heritage' section of Ukraine.

4.  Yanukovich was a Communist Party member.  Under the old regime he rose fast after his time in prison, giving some the idea that he was secretly a member of the (former) KGB.

[The Natural]

I just don't understand why everyone thinks the protestors are the ones that are right.  They are destroying private and public property when they became violent.  The protestors started a lot of the violence in the past week, not the government. If everyone believes otherwise then the western media is spinning it as usual. 

Think about all the police that are being captured and beaten/killed.  These are young men, husbands and fathers as well.  I am not saying the government is not at fault as well. But to me it looks like the protestors have just become thugs and criminals. This is seeing the local news and watching with my wife here in Ukraine.  Not from the biased western media.

What would happen in the US if the same thing was happening?  You know the government would shut down the violence any way they could.  Remember  the Occupy protestors from last year? What did the US government/ City governments do?  Remember back to the Vietnam era when the police went after the college students and protestors?

Yesterday the protestors took the Ivano-Franco oblast govenor and put him on a stage with a noose next to him while they handcuffed and let the crowd throw things at him. He has not been seen since.  All that because he would not resign from office as they demanded. This is just the ways of terrorists and thugs, to try to intimidate people.

Kerry, Obama and McCain need to shut their stupid mouths as they have no idea of what is really happening.

So to me it seems like the west just wants to change the government to get Ukraine away from Russia.  This really has nothing to do with saving the protestors, it is all politics as usual.

I know the flames will be coming my way, but I got tired of just seeing the "Oh the poor poor protestors are being hurt" posts.

When the protests first started, I was on the protestors side of the argument. But this last week has shown to me that they are nothing more then common criminals.

It might surprise you on this site, but I agree with you. May I presume that you, like me, have an Ukrainian wife of Russian origin and that we view things in light of that. It's only natural. I don't pretend to know all aspects and history behind what is happening now, but I do disagree with the one-sided view that most members here hold. And on this, that's akin to a foreigner criticizing anything USA, hehe.

I have not seen any US coverage of Ukraine lately, but a little from here in Norway which is also a western country. Most side with the protesters of course, as I view it as a power struggle with Russian, really. But as time has gone by, which is also the case in other conflicts, the comments tend to get more perspective and I have heard commentators from Kiev speaking of the valid point that Yanukovich IS the elected president and that there are a hardcore gang of thugs there in Kiev that wants no compromise, only mayhem.

That doesn't mean that I think the current regime is all good boys and that there hasn't been election fraud and that things need to change. But I get the feeling that the west will be quite comfortable with election fraud that get someone in office that are obedient to western interests. It's a can of worms to discuss here as you mentioned, as people tend to resort to labelling and namecalling instead of using arguments.

If they cannot work out a compromise, perhaps it's better that Ukraine be divided in two. One part that will be rescued by the west and another part rescued by Russia. I feel fortunate not to find my wife in Kiev but in Russia-dominated Crimea. But my wife worries about the muslims there who she say side with the protesters (which should tell you something).

[Hammer2722]

No worries Roy, it looks like Crimea might just declare its independence soon.

[lonedrake]

[The Natural]

No worries Roy, it looks like Crimea might just declare its independence soon.

Good. Ehhhh, independence from whom? Hope it will be under Russian protection though. Can't understand it if Putin will not draw the line on western interference on Russian sphere of interest in Crimea with it's Black sea navy station in Sevastopol. A balance needs to be in place in my opinion, between the west and Russia.

[Carolyn]

I just don't understand why everyone thinks the protestors are the ones that are right.  They are destroying private and public property when they became violent.  The protestors started a lot of the violence in the past week, not the government. If everyone believes otherwise then the western media is spinning it as usual. 

Think about all the police that are being captured and beaten/killed.  These are young men, husbands and fathers as well.  I am not saying the government is not at fault as well. But to me it looks like the protestors have just become thugs and criminals. This is seeing the local news and watching with my wife here in Ukraine.  Not from the biased western media.

What would happen in the US if the same thing was happening?  You know the government would shut down the violence any way they could.  Remember  the Occupy protestors from last year? What did the US government/ City governments do?  Remember back to the Vietnam era when the police went after the college students and protestors?

Yesterday the protestors took the Ivano-Franco oblast govenor and put him on a stage with a noose next to him while they handcuffed and let the crowd throw things at him. He has not been seen since.  All that because he would not resign from office as they demanded. This is just the ways of terrorists and thugs, to try to intimidate people.

Kerry, Obama and McCain need to shut their stupid mouths as they have no idea of what is really happening.

So to me it seems like the west just wants to change the government to get Ukraine away from Russia.  This really has nothing to do with saving the protestors, it is all politics as usual.

I know the flames will be coming my way, but I got tired of just seeing the "Oh the poor poor protestors are being hurt" posts.

When the protests first started, I was on the protestors side of the argument. But this last week has shown to me that they are nothing more then common criminals.

A very legit opinion on the situation in Ukraine.

If they cannot work out a compromise, perhaps it's better that Ukraine be divided in two. One part that will be rescued by the west and another part rescued by Russia. I feel fortunate not to find my wife in Kiev but in Russia-dominated Crimea. But my wife worries about the muslims there who she say side with the protesters (which should tell you something).

Those Crimean Tatars have a long history of violence against the non-muslim population  
Here's one of the recent stories: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1392454/Muslim-girl-Katya-Koren-19-stoned-death-beauty-contest-Ukraine.html
The tabloid is wrong about Katya's confession-she was Orthodox Christian.

[Chelseaboy]

21  year-old girl medic shot and killed by police sniper today..as the snipers target the medics trying to treat wounded and dying protesters ...just been reported on Sky News by Sky reporters at the scene in Kiev.

Nice guys these "young men,husband and father" Police eh ?

[CDW]

21  year-old girl medic shot and killed by police sniper today..as the snipers target the medics trying to treat wounded and dying protesters ...just been reported on Sky News by Sky reporters at the scene in Kiev.

Nice guys these "young men,husband and father" Police eh ?

What a murderous bastard!!!   Killing a medic girl who isn't involved!  WTF!!!

[pokerintherear]

A very legit opinion on the situation in Ukraine.

Carolyn, Can you explain your point of view?

The times I traveled to Ukraine I usually met many people including men, women, families and all. My understanding was they were unhappy with the situation of the governing in Ukraine. They would always say it made life difficult and hard to live. It seems everyday in their company something would come up about the corruption and bribes needed to live. Of course I did not meet all people but the ones I did had a negative view. Although I was never in the far eastern part of the country

Your comments seem the opposite. What do you see? All is good and change would be for the worse?

[Ranetka]

Carolyn, Can you explain your point of view?

The times I traveled to Ukraine I usually met many people including men, women, families and all. My understanding was they were unhappy with the situation of the governing in Ukraine. They would always say it made life difficult and hard to live. It seems everyday in their company something would come up about the corruption and bribes needed to live. Of course I did not meet all people but the ones I did had a negative view. Although I was never in the far eastern part of the country

Your comments seem the opposite. What do you see? All is good and change would be for the worse?

It does not matter how bad the government is civil war is much worse.

[pokerintherear]

It does not matter how bad the government is civil war is much worse.

Duh. Why is there civil war?

[Hammer2722]

Duh. Why is there civil war?

Ohh, let me guess, its because the governments bad? 

[Ranetka]

Ohh, let me guess, its because the governments bad? 

Why is not relevant when one is dead or lost everything. You wouldn't get my point of view as the only consequence for you is more available uw.

[pokerintherear]

Ohh, let me guess, its because the governments bad? 

Well probably, but I think stories have 2 sides. Sometimes people support different causes for different reasons.

[Ranetka]

Ohh, let me guess, its because the governments bad? 

i see your gf is Belarusian. fancy same happening to her? On her street?

[Ranetka]

Ohh, let me guess, its because the governments bad?  :E

[Chelseaboy]

Protestors clashing with military Police in Kharkiv today..also huge protests in Poltava..looks like the anger against the Ukrainian government and Police is spreading to the Eastern part of Ukraine now...despite what the pro-Government/Police supporters on here are saying.

[SteveOR]

Protestors clashing with military Police in Kharkiv today..also huge protests in Poltava..looks like the anger against the Ukrainian government and Police is spreading to the Eastern part of Ukraine now...despite what the pro-Government/Police supporters on here are saying.

That's very interesting.  What is your source for this information?