Protesters in Ukraine remind us of the priceless benefits of being EU members

[Dewed]

Russia/Putin certainly isn't the only country/government to censor their citizens access to truthful information. The problem is, they just aren't very good at it. All you need to do is look and one might see how much dis-information and flat out lies they are peddling, but I fear impartial news sources are going to be a thing of the past for that part of the world..  Not only did Ukraine get smaller, so did the Russian version of the internet.

If you are in that part of the world, you may want to locate and use an impartial DNS server, if you are allowed, otherwise it is very likely a large percent of the internet will mysteriously become unavailable to you... 

not news, just a free DNS server to ensure you get the REAL uncensored internet (until they block external DNS traffic anyways) ..  http://www.opendns.com/network-map/

[die_cast]

You miss the point.  Where was the option to remain part of Ukraine?  It wasn't on option 2. 

Crimea wasn't usual region of Ukraine, they already had some independence. I understand why Crimean people didn't want to be a part of Ukraine, there are reasons for it. I can't agree to blame only Russia, Ukrainians also did some mistakes, they literally "woke up" Crimeans, they made them wish more independence.
I understand why Russian people (in Russia) want to get Crimea back. Crimea was a part of Ukraine by mistake, it's Russian land, if SU collapse wasn't that fast, Crimea would stay a Russian region. For most Russians (not just pro-Putins, but opposition too) it was and it is Russian land, covered by Russian blood, with Russian people living there. The only thing that different people in Russia can not agree about - the way we are getting it back, nobody wants to have a war. But at the same time, there is no legal ground for it anyway.
I personaly would prefer to see Crimea as independent state, but I realize that it will be better for people to became a Russian region. Right now Russia can't afford it, even without any sanctions we are going to have a budget deficit this year.

[Dewed]

I suspect Crimea would quickly go broke if they became independent. Even if the vote wasn't rigged, given only the 2 options, there was really only one choice, which makes this "vote" pretty meaningless.. There is not a choice at all.

[JayH]

Crimea wasn't usual region of Ukraine, they already had some independence. I understand why Crimean people didn't want to be a part of Ukraine, there are reasons for it. I can't agree to blame only Russia, Ukrainians also did some mistakes, they literally "woke up" Crimeans, they made them wish more independence.
I understand why Russian people (in Russia) want to get Crimea back. Crimea was a part of Ukraine by mistake, it's Russian land, if SU collapse wasn't that fast, Crimea would stay a Russian region. For most Russians (not just pro-Putins, but opposition too) it was and it is Russian land, covered by Russian blood, with Russian people living there. The only thing that different people in Russia can not agree about - the way we are getting it back, nobody wants to have a war. But at the same time, there is no legal ground for it anyway.
I personaly would prefer to see Crimea as independent state, but I realize that it will be better for people to became a Russian region. Right now Russia can't afford it, even without any sanctions we are going to have a budget deficit this year.

You cannot and do not know what Crimeans want. The  poll was not a free and fair test of anything. In the same way Putin is trying to convince Russians that Kiev is now led by Nazis which is totally false--the Crimean situation has been repeatedly misrepresented. Regardless-- it was part of Ukrainian territory universally recognised-- and a poll conducted at the point of Russian guns is meaningless in assessing what Crimeans think or want.
Lets face it-- lets take any part of Russia and  occupy it with USA forces and ask the locals what country they want to be part of? Lots of promises-- a fixed ballot-- sure they would go with what they think will be a better life--but it would not alter the fact that it was still a part of Russian territory.
The truly crazy part of this is it is an era where boundaries are being reduced and removed-- now Putin wants to erect a huge barrier to a peaceful future.

[die_cast]

You seem intent on making sure everyone knows that you are !!

You know, I don't have any problems with it. It's not real life, it's internet, Jay!  Things we are writing here change nothing , if you prefer to think that I'm little naive silly girl, I'm fine with it, it doesn't affect my life anyway.

By declining to look at links and information here-- you are showing how closed your mind is.

I'm able to find information myself without any help, I don't need your links, I have sources to form my opinion and I know where I can't find opinions of people who I respect. I don't look at your links because I see your posts as a spam, you don't respect readers, why I should respect you and read what you are posting? I don't see things in only black and white like you, life is much more complicated that that, in my opinion the one who is closed-minded is you.

Think of Germany prior to WW2 as Hitler dragged the world into a war--Putin is risking exactly that.

As I said before, you probably don't know much about Hitler, guys. But I understand how impressive this analogy sounds for you, so keep enjoying it.

What right does Russia have to invade another country? To interfere in Ukraine's internal affairs?

Same as other countreis. As you said - none. But others did it. USA did it. NATO did it. It doesn't surprise me, that now came that day when one more country just did the same, today it's Russia, who will be next? The problem is that there are no rules or if they are, we see them constantly broken. One of the reasons I see why all this is happening now, is Putin's message for USA after Libya and Syria, which is not simple also: first of all, he didn't like that Russian opinion was ignored, then they cause more damage than was supposed, and last one - US participation in Ukrainian politic games.

[Dewed]

Die_cast, could you share a link to a site you consider a reliable news source ?  I don't want to debate their content, but I am curious to see some other perceptions of the events..

I get my news from .. http://news.google.com/  (avoiding US TV stations, ABC, NBC, MSNBC, CNN, Fox.. or I read them all and compare, each has their own agenda)    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/     for the most part, seems impartial as well

and I agree, this site is not, and should not act as a news source. That isn't it's purpose.

[JayH]

You know, I don't have any problems with it. It's not real life, it's internet, Jay!

You know I do not accept the "it's just the internet" excuse-- I spend real time here-there are real people here-some we even interact with in real life- some even become friends. So no--the "it is just the internet" excuse ------ it is  "real life" !!   

[lonedrake]

die_cast,

 What do you think will happen in eastern Ukraine? How much more of Ukraine will Russia take over? How much of Ukraine do the majority of Russians want?

 Basically, is Crimea the end or just the start?

 I know these things are hard to predict. 

[die_cast]

The  poll was not a free and fair test of anything.

Well, I know exactly how voting usually go in Russia. And I know that when I'm making my choice, nobody stands next to me saying what I have to choose. Once I even took home my voting paper, it was first voting here without column "Against all", so I went there just to take it so nobody else could vote instead of me. Just ignoring the voting has no sense.

and a poll conducted at the point of Russian guns is meaningless in assessing what Crimeans think or want.

Can I ask how do you imagine it yourself?  The guy with a gun checking every paper before he let you to put it into voting box? Seriously. I completely don't understand how, for example, presence of any military (in case with Crimea, friendly military) in my region, can force me (personally) to vote against my views.

Lets face it-- lets take any part of Russia and  occupy it with USA forces and ask the locals what country they want to be part of?

Bad example. First of all, even with real threat of death Russians wouldn't vote for USA. Second, it's not that what happened in Crimea... that's why we can't understand each other... it's not like USA and Russia... it's like Nevada and California. 

[die_cast]

I spend real time here-... So no--the "it is just the internet" excuse ------ it is  "real life" !!   

That's your choice, right? I'm not making "excuses", Jay, I'm explaining for those who are willing to listen and understand.  And this is your choice also.

[die_cast]

Die_cast, could you share a link to a site you consider a reliable news source ?

http://www.echo.msk.ru/
It's on Russian. It's Russian radio.

[die_cast]

I suspect Crimea would quickly go broke if they became independent.

Unfortunatelly, I have to agree with it.

[die_cast]

How much of Ukraine do the majority of Russians want? 

None. If we are speaking about Russian people - we want none of it. But it's not about that what Russians want...

Basically, is Crimea the end or just the start?

Crimea is Crimea. Crimea is a Russian Naval base in the Black Sea, Crimea is the place where NATO would like to have their base too, so there are too many "unknowns" to say anything, while it's obvious that it's a start... keep in mind that USA and EU have their own interests in Ukraine (and their purpose is not to help simple Ukrainians to have better life), so it's not about Russia only... we can just hope that everything goes to peace negotiations.
There is one more issue with Crimea... it's a peninsula and it depends very much on mainland.

[justme100]

Izvinitye Pazhalista.  I read that incorrectly.  What I am hearing from you is that only 65% of the people showed up for this amazingly important referendum.  That means 35% didn't show up.  Well, we know which 35% didn't show up.  It alters the shape of my comments, not the content.

Check the time I was writing this))

[justme100]

I wonder how the whole Crimean economy will be affected,as going by the fact many Ukrainians consider the Crimeans as traitors,i can see tourism being badly affected.

Be careful what you wish for.

Have you ever been to Crimea? Ukrainian tourists come here with bags full of food, they bring potatoes, cereals with them as prices here are higher especially in summer. Have you ever been on beach in summer here?Ukrainians eat borsh they bring with them in order not to pay for food in beach bar wich is really expensive. I worked as a guide some time ago, so I aslo know howm "many" Ukrainians visit excursions. The list can be prolonged)So, don't make me laugh telling me about their impact in the tourism here.

[justme100]

that Kiev is now led by Nazis which is totally false-

absolute truth!!

[justme100]

I'm able to find information myself without any help, I don't need your links, I have sources to form my opinion and I know where I can't find opinions of people who I respect. I don't look at your links because I see your posts as a spam,

strange you don't want to read his links, cherry picked from the best garbage places of the net Doesn't matter these are only words, that can't be prooved by any video.
Sevastopol was dancing till the morning this night)I have absolutely no voice now, as we were signing songs.See in all Ukrainian media today - Crimean people were forced by evil Putin to feel happy and celebrate till the morning with the guns at their heads
By the way, yesterday on the central square there was a competition in the crowd to find the "5 channel" operators Too many people wanted to give them "an interview"

[justme100]

while it's obvious that it's a start...

agree...

[fathertime]

I suspect Crimea would quickly go broke if they became independent

Hey Dewed!



  It would seem to me that the wise move for RUssia to make would be to spend a disproportionate amount of money on Crimea.  Improve the people’s lives in a very obvious way.  Make it a first class region.   IF that were to be done, and most of the people were clearly satisfied several years later this annexation would be viewed positively in the area.   If the US were to impose sanctions they could easily be viewed as the bad guy, in that part of the world. We (The US) have the option to sit it out... Upon looking at the footage and reading more, it seems clear enough to me that the majority of people in Crimea DID NOT want to be under Ukraine governing.  I have a hard time believing it was 97percent though…clearly a lot of people knew their vote wouldn't make a difference and sat it out.       

die_cast,

 What do you think will happen in eastern Ukraine? How much more of Ukraine will Russia take over? How much of Ukraine do the majority of Russians want?

 

Hi LD,

   I get the feeling if he pushes it much further; he is going to run headlong into a shooting war or nightmare insurgency.  I think his best move is to stop now while he is ahead and little blood has been shed.  Obviously Mr Putin has his own opinions!

Fathertime! 

[Gator]

I was recently looking at some numbers and here is why Vladimir Putin has to invade Eastern Ukraine.....Why would Putin be so stupid as to wind up with a pissed off Ukraine with a skewed population base?  His real only option is to invade.

I posted this exact opinion one week ago, stating the issue was WHEN will Russia invade eastern Ukraine, not IF.  Muzh, whose opinions I respect, wrote that Russia would not envelop eastern Ukraine.    He did not convince me.   

Russia is isolating itself from Europe and America.  And it will harm Russia's economy, explaining why their stock market and currency are down significantly.  To a smaller degree, it will affect the global economy.    A reasonable leader would not shoot himself in the foot, nor cut off his nose to spite his face.  Does the ordinary Russian recognize this?  If not now, they soon will. 

Over the long term Western policies will emerge and prevail in Ukraine unless Putin stops it by taking (in the short term)  more and more of Ukraine.  One would think Europe and particularly NATO needs to move fast in Ukraine to deter Putin.  Europe's rhetoric and inaction over the past few months allowed Putin to take Crimea.  Does Europe have the backbone to stand up to Putin?  So far, the answer is "no."  Hence, invasion of eastern Ukraine.

BTW, IIRC the split between ethnic Russians and Ukrainians in eastern Ukraine is more like 50-50; however, I don't have hard data.  Some ethnic Russians identify with Ukraine, not Russia.  I was in Kharkov in 2006 when Ukraine played in the World Cup.  Everyone, Russian or Ukrainian, took immense pride in seeing the blue and yellow flag on TV.  So maybe this is Muzh's point, much of eastern Ukraine does not want Russia.

[Gator]

Right now Russia can't afford it, even without any sanctions we are going to have a budget deficit this year.

Excellent point.  Life will not improve in Crimea.  However, it will in the remainder of Ukraine with European aid and IF the new Ukrainian government can rid itself of corruption, and that includes the oligarch system.  very big IF. 

[Gator]

If we are speaking about Russian people - we want none of it (ed. Ukraine). But it's not about that what Russians want...

Now that is a very insightful statement coming from a Russian, and it echoes what my Russian wife and her Russian friends say. 

OTOH, it is apparent that many Russians take great patriotic pride in the swagger of Putin's bold moves.     

[justme100]

  It would seem to me that the wise move for RUssia to make would be to spend a disproportionate amount of money on Crimea.  Improve the people’s lives in a very obvious way.

It's already done in fact. Even before referendum Sevastopol got from Moscow 60 units of technique, computer sets for schools, and what is more important a very expensive equipment for being able to sustain life of children who were born premature. We were gathering signs and asking Ukrainian goverment for this equipment for 4 years!
The results of the referendum were just announced but our salaries in headquarters were already set twice higher thn we got from Ukraine.
Meanwhile in Ukraine people are forced to give 10% from their salaries for rebuilding Mayadan. Is it fair? People were totally against Maydan and now they have to pay for what these vandals did there!!
Meanwhile Ukrainian goverment asks everybody to help Ukrainian army.Send sms in order they can buy some food for their soldiers(((




At the same time, at this very difficult moment for Ukraine, Kiev istead of thinking how to improve economic situation in country and go our of bakruptcy, keeps taking VERY important laws((

[Gator]

The results of the referendum were just announced but our salaries in headquarters were already set twice higher thn we got from Ukraine.

I assume on par with Russian salaries.

Meanwhile in Ukraine people are forced to give 10% from their salaries for rebuilding Mayadan. Is it fair? People were totally against Maydan and now they have to pay for what these vandals did there!!
Meanwhile Ukrainian goverment asks everybody to help Ukrainian army.Send sms in order they can buy some food for their soldiers((( 

Thanks for sharing this information.  It is something I did not know.  This is the type of void that the EU, et al need to fill.  Now, not after conferences and rhetoric.  Be as decisive as Putin. 

I do understand the IMF has a team in Ukraine developing a comprehensive list of Ukraine's needs.  So maybe something will happen soon.   

[pokerintherear]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-15/crimea-referendum-looms-as-kerry-fails-to-sway-russia.html

""As the West threatens to ratchet up sanctions if Russia doesn’t back down from annexing Crimea, Russia has deployed about 60,000 troops along the Ukrainian border, the government in Kiev said. Ukraine closed border crossings to Russia and will mobilize as many as 15,000 volunteers in the next 15 days to defend the nation, officials said today.""

Does anybody know the "real situation" at the border and airports? Are you free to travel to and from Crimea?