Protesters in Ukraine remind us of the priceless benefits of being EU members

[pokerintherear]

Obama the prankster (Russian official words)............ With list of 11 sanctioned Russian, Ukrainian officials

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2014/03/russian-deputy-pm-laughs-at-obamas-sanctions/ 

[BillyB]

Russia will sanction US Senators

No Russian girls for those guys.

Obama the prankster (Russian official words)............ With list of 11 sanctioned Russian, Ukrainian officials

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2014/03/russian-deputy-pm-laughs-at-obamas-sanctions/ 

Obama's sanctions are supposed to scare those guys into backing off, not make them laugh. These are the "costs" Obama has been warning about. I have a feeling Russia will be laughing all the way to west Ukraine.

[pokerintherear]

Obama's sanctions are supposed to scare those guys into backing off, not make them laugh. These are the "costs" Obama has been warning about. I have a feeling Russia will be laughing all the way to west Ukraine.

I think this is just the start of things around the world. Leaders who want to exercise actions, which they normally would not do, know they have about 2.5 years to accomplish their goals.

There is no strength to stop it at this point in time. A bully on the playground will respect strength and conduct himself accordingly. When he is the strongest he will act out until somebody bloodies his nose. 

[Dewed]

I agree, this is just the start, many counties, even some that have palatable hatred for the US will also be imposing their own sanctions. I don't know all the details.. but I really wish these were presented as UN actions, not just the US... I guess they'll get around to it eventually..  almost as useless as US congress IMHO

[justme100]

 I have a feeling Russia will be laughing all the way to west Ukraine.

I have a great suspicion Russia will say again - who?No, not me)
For this moment Crimea is an Independent Republic, an idependent state. With it's own army...and fleet. And with great desire to help people of south-west

[GQBlues]

Don't kid yourselves, folks. EU will sink as we know 'em if any substantial form of economic sanction is ever levied against Russia.

Frankly, the EU can hardly afford it and Putin knows this very well....he's got 'em by their balls. No mineral/gas/oil export from Russia, then no manufacturing work in the EU. Already they're strap with their deficits as it is...

LOL. Love to be a fly-on-the-proverbial-wall in these EU meetings lately...


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26436291


Russia ain't Libya, baby.

[BillyB]

For this moment Crimea is an Independent Republic, an idependent state.

No government can please everybody but I'm glad you're happy Justme100 in having your wishes come true. But if some American man claims you for his own and steals you from Crimea, you should hope your and your children's future home, America remains strong by pursuing their interests around the world.

the EU can hardly afford it and Putin knows this very well....he's got 'em by their balls.

EU has balls? I think Putin is still looking for them.

[fathertime]

Obama's sanctions are supposed to scare those guys into backing off, not make them laugh. These are the "costs" Obama has been warning about. I have a feeling Russia will be laughing all the way to west Ukraine.

Trying to read  the language within the language, those sanctions were just soooo weak that it is almost encouraging Putin to move forward...makes me think it will be a bear trap if he does....like the western nations want more of a reason to 'act' or want to see a civil war in Ukraine with the Ukrainians on the front lines.  I think the realty is most of them don't care THAT much, but feel they have to go through the motions that they do care.  Realty is most of those Crimeans DO want to be aligned with Russia, and so just letting them go isn't that hard to do.     


To this point I think Obama has done about all the majority of the American public would agree to, so I don't blame him. 
 


It is interesting to see the difference between how Putin acts and Obama talks....Speak softy but a carry a big stick vs..all talk little action... 


Fathertime! 

[Faux Pas]

C'mon FT, Obama is "the" leader of the free world and the most powerful military might in the world bar none. The only thing Obama doesn't have is a backbone. He doesn't have the nerve and he doesn't have the ability to get America up for a response. One would have to be deaf, dumb and blind to enter into a conflict where he was leading the march. Oh well, at least Jimmy Carter can breathe a sign of relief

[southernX]

just me    I have a great suspicion Russia will say again - who?No, not me)
For this moment Crimea is an Independent Republic, an idependent state. With it's own army...and fleet. And with great desire to help people of south-west

that is a distinct possibility ,

this type of scenario will make it very difficult  for ukraine /other countries who use an ethical code of conduct to act quickly or in unison if putin again takes on this strategy of using the crimean forces to move further into ukraine

people may not be so blindsided or bewildered in respect of what  action to take second time around though hopefully if it where to happen

SX

[die_cast]

Isn't that like Fox News here? 

Well, I have no idea what is Fox news like, but I can see in what direction you prefer to keep the conversation, so... Yes, it's exactly like Fox News!  It's a main Kremlin brain-washing tool. 

[die_cast]

Wow, what a generous gift. I don't think that would buy a Mayor's seat in a small US city. But.... Wait until the rest of the Russian cities start demanding the same equipment.

Most Russian cities already have it. Even when I was a school girl we already had computers at school.

[die_cast]

At the same time, at this very difficult moment for Ukraine, Kiev istead of thinking how to improve economic situation in country and go our of bakruptcy, keeps taking VERY important laws((

They just have no idea how to do anything about economics, they were fighting for power without any plan what to do when they will get it. Crimea is a plausible excuse now why they do nothing, they are too busy fighting with Russia.

[jone]

They just have no idea how to do anything about economics, they were fighting for power without any plan what to do when they will get it. Crimea is a plausible excuse now why they do nothing, they are too busy fighting with Russia.

Glad to see that you're sitting in on the Rada and can tell us exactly what has been accomplished.

The real problem is that Ukraine will do exactly what it needs to do to break out the Malaise that has surrounded it, along side of Russia all of these years.  It will mirror what the Poles have done with their economy.  Of course that is just my opinion now, but because you both now are experts on Ukrainian politics, consider this a dissenting view.

Keep in mind, as a business man, I have done Business in both countries.  I will not offend my Russian business partners by describing all that I have observed.  But suffice it to say that if you do not figure that 30% of any investment will be dedicated to graft and corruption in Russia, you are condemning your endeavor to failure.

[die_cast]

Life will not improve in Crimea.

Actually, I think it will. Another thing is that how much it will cost us. I guess we will have a repartition of federal budget and some other regions' budgets wil be choped.
One more "another thing", our goverment underrates an amount of investments Crimea will require. It will be literally trillions of rubles. 

[die_cast]

The real problem is that Ukraine will do exactly what it needs ...

I think we will see very soon what Ukraine will do, so let's just wait a little. 

[jone]

Die_Cast, doesn't it bother you that Poland and Latvia and Lithuania and Estonia all have higher standards of living than does Russia?  Even though under the Soviet boot, they had virtually no income?  And that Russia has all of the natural resources?

It would bother the hell out of me.  It bothered all of the Ukrainians that I have met.  They look across the Border and see the standard of living being much better.  The farms are all running with modern equipment.  The people are happy and full of pride in their country.

I have news for you.  They were looking across the Polish border, not the Russian one.
 

[JayH]

They just have no idea how to do anything about economics, they were fighting for power without any plan what to do when they will get it. Crimea is a plausible excuse now why they do nothing, they are too busy fighting with Russia.

No idea about economics? They would be the Moscow puppett Yanukovytch  stealing from the Ukrainian people-- and cutting his Moscow mates in on the spoils. When you wake up to the fact he was Moscows incompetent agent in Kiev-tehn you will be on a path to learn some truths.
Speaking of counting and incompetence-- did you read where about 484000 votes wre filed in Crimean area with 368000 on the electoral roll !!  Overall the reports are that 123% of the population voted !! Remarkable in itself!!
A little video to help you get it!! Votes 3 times with no real checks to prevent this--

[GQBlues]

Die_Cast, doesn't it bother you that Poland and Latvia and Lithuania and Estonia all have higher standards of living than does Russia?  Even though under the Soviet boot, they had virtually no income?  And that Russia has all of the natural resources?

It would bother the hell out of me.  It bothered all of the Ukrainians that I have met.  They look across the Border and see the standard of living being much better.  The farms are all running with modern equipment.  The people are happy and full of pride in their country.

I have news for you.  They were looking across the Polish border, not the Russian one.
 

So I looked it up. I used St Petersburg v Tallin (Andrew likely would know this first hand since he lived in both cities, and currently in Tallin. Cheap bastid  ).

But anyway...SP vs. Tallin:

http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Estonia&country2=Russia&city1=Tallinn&city2=Saint+Petersburg

There isn't much difference when all is said and done. The difference in wages is offset by the disparity in the cost of living.

Note: I purposely didn't compare this to Moscow since comparing Moscow to Tallin will like be like comparing Pasadena to Beverly Hills.

[jone]

I would be the first to agree with you, GQ.  The problem is that all of the wealth of Russia is in the two federal cities. I can tell you that if you live in Moscow or St. Petersburg, your life is much better than living in Ivanovo or a Siberian city based on your standard of living.  (I just had a friend who visited Siberia in January and he shared with me how they lived there.)

Compare, say, Krakow, Poland, with Ivanovo, Russia.  I know both cities. 

Look at the comparison:

http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Poland&city1=Krakow+%28Cracow%29&country2=Russia&city2=Ivanovo&displayCurrency=USD

Income is three times higher in Krakow.  While a citizen of Ivanovo has local purchasing power 65% lower. 

NOW YOU UNDERSTAND WHY THESE PEOPLE LOOK TO THE WEST!

This is reality. 

[jone]

Just as an aside, I was looking at some pictures in Poland, and I absolutely love the "Train to Heaven" sculpture.  Here it is for your viewing pleasure:

[jone]

One more:

Here is Krakow compared to Mykolaiv.  Two cities that, until recently could have been compared as typical Eastern European cities:

http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Poland&city1=Krakow+%28Cracow%29&country2=Ukraine&city2=Mykolayiv&displayCurrency=USD

Krakow has four times the income and Mykolaiv has 65% less purchasing power.

We can do this all day long.  The simple reality is that Krim will go the way of Russia.  Moreover, with the border stopped up, and no bridge in Kerch, Krim is in for some tough times.  Especially after Sochi was made into the Mecca of the Black Sea by V.V. with 50 Billion US.  You can bet he won't put that into Crimea.

When Poland really gained freedom from the Malaise and Lassitude of the Soviet structure, it took the country about fifteen years to really pull themselves together.  The Baltic countries were a little quicker.  But now that the standards are in place, the people, as a whole, are very, very happy. 

Pokeintherear talked about 'buyer's remorse'.  I don't think that Crimea will experience such.  They are a prideful people.  But these same people will see the changes that begin to occur in Ukraine, the same way they did in Poland and there will be envy.

What is ironic is that Krim should have been the ultimate beneficiary of Ukraine breaking with Russia.  As soon as the country had disposable income, the beachfront cities would have prospered.  Now, they have no one who will chance coming to the beach.  When there are other locations where the locals don't hate the Ukrainians.

[GQBlues]

Look at the search link in your post...to get a comparative summary you ought to look and see the Tallin/SP/Prague bar chart at the bottom for the cost of living.

It isn't fair to compare Krakow to the city of brides. Ivanovo is hardly on the same scale. that'll be like comparing Moscow to Banska Bystrica, LOL. Heck...make it Bratislava since we want to keep it 'federal'.

These things are all relative, you know.

Anyway...I digress.

Whether we like it or not, the west left Putin with no choice. The EU (US) should not have meddle in Ukraine. If the EU is looking for more bodies to tax, they should go ahead allow Turkey in. Hell, it's right there by the Black Sea.

It seem rather silly to me that Angela Merkel (EU) reasons for not admitting Turkey is their allege 'slow decay of free democracy'.

How stupid is that considering their (EU) involvement in Ukraine right now. They just helped overthrew a legitimate government by force and ousted an elected president. If that isn't 'decay' of free democracy, man I don't know what is. IMO, that puppy is decomposed if not mummified.

Moreover, Ukraine doesn't even use it's territory (yet) to house missiles to keep Russia at bay the way Turkey had stuck out its neck all these years for the western hemisphere.

All of these is mere political BS with people dying. It's about $$$ and who gets to tax whom. The EU's overall deficit/GDP is in Defcon 4. Take every individual country and look at their debt's % GDP. The UK, France, Germany, Italy, etc...and these are countries who aren't as neck deep in muck as the likes of Spain, Portugal, Greece, yadayadayada.

They creating all kinds of ways to find a way to tax anyone, someone...Obama is going to find himself sold-out by these guys and he'll be left standing there looking like a stooge, if he isn't yet already. The EU can ill afford any prolonged serious sanctions against Russia. Not now.

[jone]

I, too, have never been an advocate of the US sticking their nose in Eastern Europe.  The only real purpose would be to tweak the Russians. 

I am a student of history.  Those who remember the Ottoman Empire and the way it operated can agree that corruption was rampant and that bribes were the norm.  The Russian economy seems to have taken a play from the Ottoman Empire playbook where graft and corruption hinder true small business development.  It is also the reason for the new Oligarchs that are the modern day captains of industry with unimaginable wealth.

Other Eastern European countries have shed this standard way of doing business. 

So Ukraine must find its way out of the darkness that was the rule for the past twenty years.  Anyone who thinks Tymoshenko was any better than Yanukovych needs to understand how Yulia obtained her wealth.

But upon a revolution, like that seen in Prague - and people totally dedicated to the models of other Eastern European nations - and the paths they have taken - there is great hope that Ukraine can emerge from the current situation, now unfettered by the militant Russian communities in Krim.  (After all where did the bulk of the Berkut come from?)

In the words of Vaclav Havel:  "Words and ideas are capable of shaking the entire structure of government, in which the words are mightier than ten military divisions."

Russia will do everything in its power to stop Ukraine from becoming another Poland, another Czech Republic.  But, ultimately, the Russian people will want for themselves the freedom from the lassitude and malaise that surrounds every day life in Russia. 

I have a great love for the Russian people.  The number of friends I have in Russia is a great number.  I would wish for them the best of all possible things.  Yet, right now, a cloud hangs over the Rodina.  Once again, we hope for light.

[JayH]

How stupid is that considering their (EU) involvement in Ukraine right now. They just helped overthrew a legitimate government by force and ousted an elected president. If that isn't 'decay' of free democracy, man I don't know what is. IMO, that puppy is decomposed if not mummified.

All of these is mere political BS with people dying. It's about $$$ and who gets to tax whom.
.

GQ--  a couple of points-- the legitimate government voted a corrupt leader out legitimately.The protest events provided the catalyst .From that point--the new interim legitimate  government has made steps to enhance the chances of a democratic future for Ukraine-- a chance at a future for Ukrainians. Sure that is idealistic--but it is the simple stuff that has united Ukrainians like never before-- to the point that they are attempting to stare a former super power down to achieve that in the current crisis. We should all be applauding the people of Ukraine-- and doing what we each can to help them. Here are the words of one Ukrainian-----  (apologies for the sketchy translation but you will get the gist clearly--- these words are some important-to any mod-please leave intact--thankyou)
Quoting
"Russian friends need to understand what the "Maidan"!
Maidan is not the place, or organization!
"Maidan" is a phenomenon ... everyone can come to the maidan .. everyone can talk to the people who came to the maidan ... and no matter what is wrong anyone can come and say that "wrong" ...
the people who were "antimaydanom" in marienskom - those silly people who pay (no matter what, just to give money) titushki, selling police Gopnik, thieves, bandits, deceived and nedalekoglyadnye minded old men (who until then SIW ​​not even listen to what they say in America or the EU, because they live still live in the scoop, because there (Europe USA) ENEMIES!), but not those who Donetsk Kharkiv and Luhansk and so want a normal live peacefully!
Everyone in Ukraine should go to Maidan (or what in your town as associated maidan) and not say where he wants to live, and how he wants to live on earth UKRAINIAN proudly calling themselves Ukrainians (no flag, language and other delyugi) ... no flags! without nationalities! without language! and just listen to each other ... no matter who we have to make a good life, it is important that those who want to live honestly (PEOPLE) ruled by those who should give it to them (the authorities) Every good person wants to live in Ukraine! I do not like the word POWER! power - it is an opportunity and the ability to impose its will, affect the activities and behavior of other people, even in spite of their resistance. [1] The essence of power does not depend on what the basis of such a possibility. Power can be based on different methods: the democratic and authoritarian, honest and dishonest, violence and revenge, deceit, provocations, extortion, promotion, promises, etc. The political power - the ability of one person or group of persons to control the behavior of citizens and society, based on the national or national objectives. This definition is valid only in the case if we consider the concept of "government" and "political power" identical. Vlad - word in scho vikoristovuєtsya ukraїnskіy movі for titles kіlkoh rіznih, ale vzaєmopov'yazanih understand that right mozhlivіst keruvati, rozporyadzhatisya chimos abo kimos. Polіtichne panuvannya, polіtichny ustrіy. Reigning Vlad (vessels zakonodavcha, vikonavcha) Vіyskova mіts (vіyskova Vlad) Pomіtno scho nayzagalnіshim that basically є naypershe viznachennya and nastupnі є Yogo spetsifіchnimi vіdobrazhennyami. nayshirshomu In rozumіnnі vlada Tse zdatnіst vplivati ​​on podії that yavischa. In such a wide znachennі not speaking on Til'ky vіdnosini mіzh people ale th on vzaєmodіyu Lyudin s navkolishnіm svіtom (Saying Goes about Vlad Lyudin over nature) chi navіt natural yavisch mіzh him. However, for all the Perche Vlad rozglyadaєtsya yak sotsіalna kategorіya i stosuєtsya stosunkіv mіzh people. WIKIPEDIA IS EVERYTHING WITH ONLY RU and UA ... THINK: Do Russian general there is no place to which they can just quietly vіyti and say I DO NOT LIKE THAT country is so and so and so .... And standing on this until I want to leave! And we have! and every Ukrainian must go at least once in two weeks, with his discontent with the authorities on the area of your city! and it should be the safest and most popular destination for smart, honest, intelligent people who want to offer us how to live better ... what to do to live better ... not only in politics but also in the life of ... legally in legal terms ... in the state system and so on ... (C) Ukrainian people EVERYONE WHO WANTS TO LIVE BETTER MUST MAKE THIS CENSUS! AND SAY IT BY THEIR NAMES!"