Women with Children - more strongly worded advice

[Ranetka]

My, what a convoluted thread. The odds are not good, and this is certainly not the way I would have gone about it, but one must try to make the best of a bad situation. Jmana, you may have done this, but I am curious as to whether you have tried to do something as a "family" outside where laptops would be awkward and perhaps WiFi would not be an option? I am thinking a day spent with Maria and Alina at a swimming pool, playground, or some other venue where Maria could play and Alina and you could simply chit-chat while out with Maria. You could even do smalltalk about the weather if need be. It could be as simple as going out together and walking to the nearest playground.

+1

[Gator]

Patience? You think he's paitient? You are kidding me, right? What other good qualities do you think you've deduced from his posts, pray tell? I'm really very curious.

Some good qualities:

He impresses me as a patient man, perhaps overly optimistically patient -  believing doubts and storms could eventually pass.

He is unpretentious, recognizing early that he has a serious problem and needs insights and advice from helpful, experienced members.

Although he wrongly focused on the daughter, he quickly recognized from the RWD input that the problem is his fiancée.    To enlighten us, he had the courage to disclose some highly personal information, knowing it would make him subject to ridicule by miserable posters not interested in helping.   

Finally, he has determination to follow his dream.  He still has emotional feelings for Alina, and while it would be easy and safe to ask her to return to Russia, he is not ready to let her go. 

We do not have to discuss his mistakes (spilled milk) nor his limitations.

[Gator]

Ade, it seems that your advice to jmana is to forget forever about marrying RW because of his limited social skills.   

You say the same about most men.  So your advice is not tailored to jmana's situation, but merely a repeat of your sweeping conclusion about men in general - stay away from the FSU.

[Gator]

Why is it that I am the only one drawing negative conclusions here?  Have I gone over to the dark side?  The worst that could happen is what happens when Social Services do not become involved.  The resentment grows until the pressure cooker blows.  Draw your own conclusions.

You are not alone.  Many see that jmana and Alina are not compatible.  Some here harbor doubts about Alina.  I personally question her commitment and her sincerity.  However, you neglect one very important point.  jmana still has emotional feelings for Alina.  Rightly or wrongly, he is not ready to give up on achieving his dream.

[jone]

Oh, I am well aware that jmana has feelings for Alina. 

But, in a forum, people read about life choices and they opine.  I believe that even if these two came together and got married, they would both be miserable.   Alina has done nothing to demonstrate that she can make a happy home.

I would suggest to you that jmana is infatuated with an illusion of what he wants life to be and while trying to deal with what is, he is ignoring the true signals that are being sent out here.  And there is a significant risk that this gal will bring out the frustration in our hero to the point where something really bad happens.

My friends always tell me that I'm too choosy when it comes to women.  The simple reality is that I have to gauge who I can live with and who will make me happy.    This woman has done nothing to indicate that she can make this guy happy.  He is in danger of creating a living hell for himself that becomes a ticking time bomb.   And he hasn't demonstrated the astute social skills to understand that she has nothing to offer.

Choosing not to keep the charade up is the first step towards normalacy.  One needs to find happiness in oneself before one can honestly find it in others.   

[jmana]

My, what a convoluted thread. The odds are not good, and this is certainly not the way I would have gone about it, but one must try to make the best of a bad situation. Jmana, you may have done this, but I am curious as to whether you have tried to do something as a "family" outside where laptops would be awkward and perhaps WiFi would not be an option? I am thinking a day spent with Maria and Alina at a swimming pool, playground, or some other venue where Maria could play and Alina and you could simply chit-chat while out with Maria. You could even do smalltalk about the weather if need be. It could be as simple as going out together and walking to the nearest playground.

Oh yeah, we've definitely spent as much time doing things like that as possible, unfortunately the weather has been spotty here since she's arrived (I think she brought the Russian weather with her).  But she's not very talkative by nature.  Plus her daughter or my son interject every few minutes whenever we do have an actual conversation.  To make matters worse she's been reading a book she's really into and so that's taking up a lot of her time, and I don't want to complain because I'd much rather her read a book than look at Japanese tennis boys for 5 hours straight    I did ask her when she plans to go from sleeping on the 3rd floor to sleeping in my room, and her blunt reply was "after marriage", so at least I know she isn't planning on that being a permanent thing.  I asked her before about her personality, why she always seems to be grumpy, and she said that's the Russian way to be "gloomy".  I just think it's a depression issue that has never been addressed, or has been and she refuses to treat it.  Maybe that's the reason for the anime/Japanese addiction, maybe that's her escape.  Or maybe I'm just grasping at straws trying to make excuses for her bad behavior.

[jmana]

You are not alone.  Many see that jmana and Alina are not compatible.  Some here harbor doubts about Alina.  I personally question her commitment and her sincerity.  However, you neglect one very important point.  jmana still has emotional feelings for Alina.  Rightly or wrongly, he is not ready to give up on achieving his dream.

I was ready to admit that she had zero feelings for me and never would and therefore we weren't compatible.  But then yesterday I was reading a book on the bed to her daughter and she came upstairs to find out where Maria was, and when she realized what was going on she smiled and was fighting back tears.  So there is something there, I just don't know how to get her to let it out. 

[Ade]

I am just a little dog who ponders about what he reads. Contrary to others I have no opinion about you, other than that you seem to feel the need to post negative about others, possibly to bring up your own self-esteem.

See, there you go again. Now, try not to be a hypocrite and tell me what saw in him - I'm not even asking for negatives here, just the positives you said you saw, you know, in the content of a previous post of yours.

[Shadow]

See, there you go again. Now, try not to be a hypocrite and tell me what saw in him - I'm not even asking for negatives here, just the positives you said you saw, you know, in the content of a previous post of yours.

Can you stop trying to sideline things by making it personal?

[Ade]

Ade, it seems that your advice to jmana is to forget forever about marrying RW because of his limited social skills.   

You say the same about most men.  So your advice is not tailored to jmana's situation, but merely a repeat of your sweeping conclusion about men in general - stay away from the FSU.

Actually, my advice to him is to learn how to interact with the opposite sex before ever thinking of marrying again.

My advice to you is to read what I write and not twist my words to what you want them to say.

Also, are you shadow in disguise?

Some good qualities:

He impresses me as a patient man, perhaps overly optimistically patient -  believing doubts and storms could eventually pass.

He is unpretentious, recognizing early that he has a serious problem and needs insights and advice from helpful, experienced members.

Although he wrongly focused on the daughter, he quickly recognized from the RWD input that the problem is his fiancée.    To enlighten us, he had the courage to disclose some highly personal information, knowing it would make him subject to ridicule by miserable posters not interested in helping.   

Finally, he has determination to follow his dream.  He still has emotional feelings for Alina, and while it would be easy and safe to ask her to return to Russia, he is not ready to let her go. 

We do not have to discuss his mistakes (spilled milk) nor his limitations.

[Ade]

Can you stop trying to sideline things by making it personal?

You made a statement, I asked you to clarify, you then said you don't do that while doing exactly that about me - a quip about my self esteem for instance. And you are saying that I'm making this personal?

[Shadow]

  Or maybe I'm just grasping at straws trying to make excuses for her bad behavior.

That.

As I mentioned before, she should be on her best behaviour right now.
She probably has caught on that you are contemplating not accepting how things are going, and is trying to give you as low amount of encouragement needed in order to get to her goal of marriage.
Even if you do marry her, my view is that it will not last any longer as she finds necessary. You will save yourself a lot of trouble and money if you start understanding this is not how someone behaves that is in to you.

[Shadow]

You made a statement, I asked you to clarify, you then said you don't do that while doing exactly that about me - a quip about my self esteem for instance. And you are saying that I'm making this personal?

Yes.

[BillyB]

I asked her before about her personality, why she always seems to be grumpy, and she said that's the Russian way to be "gloomy". 

Think about the grumpy, negative, and pessimistic posters here? Would you want to marry one? She's giving you fair warning that it's a Russian character trait that's beyond her control. Ready for a lifetime of that?

  I did ask her when she plans to go from sleeping on the 3rd floor to sleeping in my room, and her blunt reply was "after marriage", so at least I know she isn't planning on that being a permanent thing.

Sounds like a big gamble you'd have to make. Ask yourself, did Alina have her child only after marriage with the child's father?  If not, ask yourself why the rules for you are tougher?

[Shadow]

Think about the grumpy, negative, and pessimistic posters here? Would you want to marry one?

Most of them are males, I guess you know the answer to that one. 

[jone]

Sounds like a big gamble you'd have to make. Ask yourself, did Alina have her child only after marriage with the child's father?  If not, ask yourself why the rules for you are tougher?

Let's look at this objectively.  Have you ever even kissed this woman?  She is NOT giving herself to you.  She is using you as an escape from a life she obviously didn't like in Russia, either.  One has to consider why a woman leaves her homeland, her friends, to be in another country and considers living there. 

In this case, the woman probably didn't have any suitors and no options.  Having a wife like this would be a living hell for me.

[calmissile]

This is the craziest (non) love story I have read to date.  From what I have gathered.....
1.  These two met and planned to get married without adequate time together to get to know each other in a 'family environment'.  Common trait for those of us that are/were in a rush to find a FSU wife.
2.  The OP suffers what some of us also went through in this journey..... The inability to let go when all the signs point in that direction.  After making a huge emotional and financial investment in a dream, it is very difficult to admit defeat and throw in the towel, even when common sense would suggest it is the best thing.
3.  The probability of this couple changing behaviours, dreams, personalities, etc.to make a successful marriage is nearly zero.
4.  There are tens of thousands of opportunities for better matches and continuing this relationship is a waste of time, emotions and money.
5.  The sooner she is returned to her home country the better for both parties.
6.  There is no need to assign blame ......just end it!

[Gator]

But then yesterday I was reading a book on the bed to her daughter and she came upstairs to find out where Maria was, and when she realized what was going on she smiled and was fighting back tears.  So there is something there, I just don't know how to get her to let it out.

Talk to her now about what made her cry.  Do not let her avoid this.  She needs to open up before you decide to marry her.

She has to change in many ways, but talking freely about her feelings is at the top.

 

[jone]

Yeah, if there is a woman who can make Calmissile happy, there's someone for everyone.  After all, he's the grumpiest guy on the forum.  Now he acts like a 16 year old school boy married to a wonderful woman.

Before, though, he was in a relationship he knew wouldn't work.  And he was not happy.  (Can you say Irina?)  He would not have found happiness if he hadn't let the previous one go.

[calmissile]

Think about the grumpy, negative, and pessimistic posters here? Would you want to marry one? She's giving you fair warning that it's a Russian character trait that's beyond her control. Ready for a lifetime of that?

Your words are golden! 

The stereotypical negative personality of many FSUW is widespread, but not universal.  My experience revealed that this is mostly in women over 35-40 years and even there you can find women that are generally happy and pleasant to be with.  You just need to search for someone compatible with your own personality and put the glamor, boobs, and legs on a lower priority.

I also noticed that woman in their younger years (below 30) do not exhibit this characteristic.  I suspect that it has to do with the history of a repressive government over generations and the newer generations are more optimistic about their future.   Just my guess.

The bottom line is that newbies should consider this personality and behavior issue carefully before falling in love with a dream.  Living together for life warrants a carefull consideration of how you will interact on a day to day basis.

[Gator]

I did ask her when she plans to go from sleeping on the 3rd floor to sleeping in my room, and her blunt reply was "after marriage", so at least I know she isn't planning on that being a permanent thing.

Unacceptable IMO. 

I asked her before about her personality, why she always seems to be grumpy, and she said that's the Russian way to be "gloomy".  I just think it's a depression issue that has never been addressed, or has been and she refuses to treat it.  Maybe that's the reason for the anime/Japanese addiction, maybe that's her escape.  Or maybe I'm just grasping at straws trying to make excuses for her bad behavior.

It could be an explanation for her behavior, yet it is not acceptable.   I was married to a clinically depressed AW who never was as bad as you described Alina, yet living with her was dreadful.  It became worse over time.  Can you imagine Alina becoming even worse.  It could happen.

I assert that few RW are grumpy most of the time.   If with a man whom they appreciate, they are just the opposite.  That is why we say you will know when a RW likes you.

Also, do you want a grumpy woman being the stepmother of your young son.  You want a happy soul full of life.  Not a miserable leech. 

This weekend you peeled back a couple more layers of this onion named Alina.  As you tell us more,  she becomes more hopeless.  Do you feel your dream slipping away?

Are you feeling sorry for Alina?  That makes you a white knight.   Don't be a white knight.  White knights have a low success rate with RW over the long term. 

Did you ask Alina to write a fantasy story about the four of you?  You need to step up the pace of learning who she is and what she wants. 

jmana, I suggest you give this two more weeks.  Unless she has made some dramatic changes in two weeks, you should ask her to return to Russia.  How you inform her is important.  Be careful.

[calmissile]

Yeah, if there is a woman who can make Calmissile happy, there's someone for everyone.  After all, he's the grumpiest guy on the forum.  Now he acts like a 16 year old school boy married to a wonderful woman.

Before, though, he was in a relationship he knew wouldn't work.  And he was not happy.  (Can you say Irina?)  He would not have found happiness if he hadn't let the previous one go.

True, however the point is that it was difficult to let go of the emotions, financial investment, lost time, etc.  Nevertheless, it had to be done.  I hold no bitterness toward her.  It was my fault for not ending it when I should have recognized the signs.

As a side note.... apparently one of our mutual friends must have told her I got married.  She recently sent me a Skype message congratulating me and thanking me for all the things I did for her and her family.  She also invited me and my wife and kids to visit her and her family if we are in the area in the future.   There is no reason to harbor hate and anger.  Just remember the good times for however long it lasted.

[Daveman]

I'm not sure why anyone would think there should be a relationship where none has been built.  The cart is well before the horse.  Regardless of the steps taken to arrive at the current situation, this is where they are right now.

They are very early in the dating phase at best, relationship wise.  They have two children present.  I'm not surprised at all by the distance indicated between two strangers at this stage in the relationship.  It's more or less what I would imagine the situation to be in the beginning of an "arranged marriage".   

Jmana,
Is there a spark somewhere here? Is there mutual attraction? Is there any reason to believe that there is a basis for a relationship to grow/flourish?

What is good here? What can be built upon? 

Get the pressure of marriage decision off both your shoulders and just be.  Relax and have fun together.  Find the common fun activities you can enjoy together.  Having serious talks about a basically non-existent relationship isn't very productive as who the hell would have answers at this point? 

You took a shortcut to marriage but there are no shortcuts to building the relationship.  You've skipped all the parts which would build feelings from the woman's side - and placing blame on her for not responding to what?  nothing?  Relax.  "Date" the woman.

[Shadow]

I'm not sure why anyone would think there should be a relationship where none has been built.  The cart is well before the horse.  Regardless of the steps taken to arrive at the current situation, this is where they are right now.

Do you think the woman is clueless about what is in her visa as reason for immigration? If yes, would it not be time to make it clear? If no, is this what she considers to be married life?
Should we force them to engage in a situation where it obviously does not come natural knowing chances are it will only delay the train wreck to a later date ?

[Misha]

Oh yeah, we've definitely spent as much time doing things like that as possible, unfortunately the weather has been spotty here since she's arrived (I think she brought the Russian weather with her).

So is that a yes or no? Weather is merely an excuse.

But she's not very talkative by nature.  Plus her daughter or my son interject every few minutes whenever we do have an actual conversation.  To make matters worse she's been reading a book she's really into and so that's taking up a lot of her time, and I don't want to complain because I'd much rather her read a book than look at Japanese tennis boys for 5 hours straight    I did ask her when she plans to go from sleeping on the 3rd floor to sleeping in my room, and her blunt reply was "after marriage", so at least I know she isn't planning on that being a permanent thing.  I asked her before about her personality, why she always seems to be grumpy, and she said that's the Russian way to be "gloomy".  I just think it's a depression issue that has never been addressed, or has been and she refuses to treat it.  Maybe that's the reason for the anime/Japanese addiction, maybe that's her escape.  Or maybe I'm just grasping at straws trying to make excuses for her bad behavior.

Get a sitter! Date. Either she is an extreme introvert or she is really not into you.  If the former, then you have to put more effort into it...