Women with Children - more strongly worded advice

[TheTraveler]

Try to explain it in a way he will see it as it revolves around him so he will make the right choice and tell her she is going back home.

gator took care of that...

jmana, if Alina requires therapy, it can cost easily $100,000 over a couple of years.  And most insurance plans reimburse little of the expense.

[Slumba]

Sorry, but I don't see how standing there watching some old guy repeat chants and hymns over and over for 4 hours "spending time as a family".  It's not like we'd be talking to each other.  It'd be no better than sitting in a movie theater for 4 hours.  Besides, I don't think she wanted me to be there because she told me twice that I could drop them off.  I'm assuming it's because she feels uncomfortable doing all the "stuff" in front of me, like going up and kissing the cross (after who knows how many others kissed it) and lighting the candles.  When I did go last week she waited until I went outside with Maria before she did all that stuff.

I have 2 issues in responding:

1. I know from personal experience, how a post made on the forum can be mis-interpreted, and people can think that they know the situation from your words, but they don't.

2. I am myself, not a good Christian, but am still Christian, so, I am a little biased when it comes to religious topics.

That said, your post shows the attitude of someone who frankly doesn't know anything about Russia or Orthodoxy (sorry). 

It is a religious ritual, of course it has meaning to the participants!  And you wouldn't even go into the church with her - bluntly, it is a test that you 100% failed.  If she is religious then it is all the more likely that she is expecting you to LEAD as head of the (proposed, expected to be) family.   

What you should have done, is told her that "of course" you would be attending with her, that if it was important to her, it was also important to you. That, she should understand that you don't know anything about it, but since it is a part of who she is, you wanted to know more, experience it with her, etc.   You can honestly tell her that you do not get the spiritual side of it, but, you can at least know what goes on.

The Orthodox Church has been in existence for 2000 years. Its liturgy (the structure and content of the service) is ancient, was written 1600 years ago by this guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Chrysostom and Orthodoxy has been a part of Russia from the very beginning.  Am I to understand, that you have absolutely no curiousity about Russia's culture or history?

I wasn't there, so couldn't tell you if the reason she did things alone was because 1) she was actually embarassed or 2) when she lights candles, etc. it is a time of private contemplation - so not having any distractions including the 4yo around, is just normal behavior.

[jmana]

I have 2 issues in responding:

1. I know from personal experience, how a post made on the forum can be mis-interpreted, and people can think that they know the situation from your words, but they don't.

2. I am myself, not a good Christian, but am still Christian, so, I am a little biased when it comes to religious topics.

That said, your post shows the attitude of someone who frankly doesn't know anything about Russia or Orthodoxy (sorry). 

It is a religious ritual, of course it has meaning to the participants!  And you wouldn't even go into the church with her - bluntly, it is a test that you 100% failed.  If she is religious then it is all the more likely that she is expecting you to LEAD as head of the (proposed, expected to be) family.   

What you should have done, is told her that "of course" you would be attending with her, that if it was important to her, it was also important to you. That, she should understand that you don't know anything about it, but since it is a part of who she is, you wanted to know more, experience it with her, etc.   You can honestly tell her that you do not get the spiritual side of it, but, you can at least know what goes on.

The Orthodox Church has been in existence for 2000 years. Its liturgy (the structure and content of the service) is ancient, was written 1600 years ago by this guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Chrysostom and Orthodoxy has been a part of Russia from the very beginning.  Am I to understand, that you have absolutely no curiousity about Russia's culture or history?

I wasn't there, so couldn't tell you if the reason she did things alone was because 1) she was actually embarassed or 2) when she lights candles, etc. it is a time of private contemplation - so not having any distractions including the 4yo around, is just normal behavior.

No you're right, and I plan to go, it's just that I am only one person who is being expected to do everything for 3 people (not including myself).  I have to cook, clean, do laundry, work 40 hours, etc..  I am up till midnight every night while she's in bed by 9:30.  Every minute is precious to me, and the thought of standing there for hours knowing that's going to make me stay awake even later trying to get things done just isn't a very positive thought. 

[Slumba]

No you're right, and I plan to go, it's just that I am only one person who is being expected to do everything for 3 people (not including myself).  I have to cook, clean, do laundry, work 40 hours, etc..  I am up till midnight every night while she's in bed by 9:30.  Every minute is precious to me, and the thought of standing there for hours knowing that's going to make me stay awake even later trying to get things done just isn't a very positive thought.

What part of the daily chores is she handling?  Can she not cook or do laundry?  How did she survive with a kid in StP?

[Misha]

the thought of standing there for hours knowing that's going to make me stay awake even later trying to get things done just isn't a very positive thought.

I don't quite understand why the service would be hours long. Our service begins at 10am and is finished by 12. There is fellowship afterwards, but one is not obliged to go.

[jmana]

I don't quite understand why the service would be hours long. Our service begins at 10am and is finished by 12. There is fellowship afterwards, but one is not obliged to go.

I don't know either, it starts at 8am and is over at 12.  I don't think the stuff before 10 is anything she would have to go to.  When I went with her last weekend we got there around 11 so it wasn't bad.  I think she just has to decide on how long she wants to be there, if it's less than 2 hours I will stay, anything more than that I will leave and come back towards the end. 

[Misha]

I don't know either, it starts at 8am and is over at 12.  I don't think the stuff before 10 is anything she would have to go to.  When I went with her last weekend we got there around 11 so it wasn't bad.  I think she just has to decide on how long she wants to be there, if it's less than 2 hours I will stay, anything more than that I will leave and come back towards the end.

Usually, confessions is before the church service (at our church it starts at 9:30). The important part of the ceremony is the service itself and that does not usually last more than two hours.

[jmana]

What part of the daily chores is she handling?  Can she not cook or do laundry?  How did she survive with a kid in StP?

She said she can "cook anything", but hasn't offered to do so.  I told her many times I'd like to try her cooking.  Not sure what else to do to get her to cook something?  I don't know what to say about laundry.  She doesn't generate any so I hate to ask her to do it.  The only clothing of their's that I wash is her daughter's, which isn't much, and alina's socks.  I don't know how the rest of her clothes get clean, magic perhaps?!

[Misha]

She said she can "cook anything", but hasn't offered to do so.  I told her many times I'd like to try her cooking.  Not sure what else to do to get her to cook something?

Have you asked to cook something with her? Perhaps you could ask if she could show you how to cook borscht. I personally don't like cooking with anybody else, but in this case it might be a good way for you two to actually interact. It is hard to read or surf the web while chopping vegetables :p

[size=78%]I don't know what to say about laundry.  She doesn't generate any so I hate to ask her to do it.  The only clothing of their's that I wash is her daughter's, which isn't much, and alina's socks.  I don't know how the rest of her clothes get clean, magic perhaps?![/size]

How long does laundry really take to do in a day? I am assuming you have a washer and dryer and not obsessive about ironing 

[jmana]

Have you asked to cook something with her? Perhaps you could ask if she could show you how to cook borscht. I personally don't like cooking with anybody else, but in this case it might be a good way for you two to actually interact. It is hard to read or surf the web while chopping vegetables :p




How long does laundry really take to do in a day? I am assuming you have a washer and dryer and not obsessive about ironing 

Yeah I need to try that. 
It's not the washing that takes long, it's the folding and putting away part that I hate    And no, I don't iron anything. 

[Wayne]

Washing machines in Russia are usually very small, and they usually don't have a dryer. Therefore, they probably don't wash their clothes as often. She might wash underware by hand. You need to show her how to use your machines.
 
You need to buy them some more clothes. They probably have certain things they just wear around the house.
 
There should be a Russian grocery store, and you need to take Alina there because she needs special items to cook with. Also, most Russian flats have a small two burner gas stove, with tiny oven. Your stove is probably a mistery to her.

[Misha]

There should be a Russian grocery store, and you need to take Alina there because she needs special items to cook with.

What special items would these be? The only thing that our local grocery store did not carry was kefir and we make our own. I believe jmana is now doing the same. Other than that, the Russian stores are good for some delicacies, but everything that you need to cook with is readily available in most grocery stores. My wife and I are perfectly capable of making any Russian recipe without going to a Russian store.

[BillyB]

I have to cook, clean, do laundry, work 40 hours, etc..  I am up till midnight every night while she's in bed by 9:30. 

Alina has trained you well. Here at this forum you're trying to figure out how to change her ways but she has successfully done a better job of molding you into the husband she wants. You've even become a mother to her daughter. If you didn't cook, would she allow her daughter to starve? Maybe not, but she'll probably cook just enough for her and her daughter and let you and your son starve.


She contributes nothing to the family and home as she does to the internet. She may have even been a pig back in St. Petersburg. She is showing you how she'd behave in a family environment yet you seem to keep finding reasons to hold on to her even making the excuse you're not into sex all that much so that makes you two a good match. It's not difficult to figure out, if most men were around a lazy and grump personality like Alina, their sex drive would decrease and die too. She's killing your libido on purpose.

[Gator]

I am up till midnight every night while she's in bed by 9:30.

What time does she awaken?

[jmana]

What time does she awaken?

Today 10am

[Gator]

People with depression tend to sleep little at night yet are sleepy much of the day.  You do not sleep with her so you do not know if she sleeps soundly or has some sort of sleep disorder where she needs to be in bed 12 hours just to get the equivalent of 8-10 hours of sleep.

Whatever, it is not normal.  Is there anything about Alina that is normal?

[southernX]

along the lines of their posts, my theory:

he told her in russia that his was a marriage proposal.  and now that she has arrived at his home, he is showing no signs of commitment nor progress toward marriage.  she is feeling humiliated that she is being evaluated during a test drive period.  during this period, she has no freedom/independent transportation, no cash, no access to medical care for her motion sickness problem.  hell, he didn't even meet her when she arrived in the usa.  she has also declared no sex until marriage.  and while most non-virgin rw who are certain of their man's intention to marry would have long ago jumped into the sack -- she sounds too proud to put her bedroom skills up for evaluation, too.  frankly i don't blame her.

what is surreal to me is that the forum here is actually wondering whether *she* has the mental health problem?  sure, according to jmana she sounds like a head case.  but can his words be trusted?  he already lied on the k1 visa application.

i believe that alina recognizes now that it is a mistake.  she is on a 'silent strike', as willowtree so aptly phrased.  unfortunately, with only $200 in her pocket, she cannot return home until the hero decides that her evaluation period is over, and he buys her a return plane ticket.  sad.

gotta agree with you as well

jmana , you have made everything else a priority but your new family , you keep making excuses , dancing all around the place trying to defend the indefensible mate ,

this is your second crack at this and you have right royally F***ED it so far , imho
you seem clueless as to whats important to her
basically you seem to have learnt  very little from your first experiences ,

even less have you reflected on your own mistakes and set about improving yourself and growing into that which you desire

my guess is alina has been evaluating you since she arrived , you dont meet the mark expected and she now is on silent strike , waiting , hopeing , trying to see which way the future will go , and what she can do to improve her situation , probably blames herself for being so trusting and stupid to put herself in such a position

im sure alina is a pretty normal person , who had no negative intentions, she trusted your picture story book words that she heard on your visit etc etc ,

in anormal setting with aguy she loved im sure she would flourish and work hard for the family in all ways
your not seeing it as she has shut you out

i can only think she now has decided to  stop wasting her energy on anything to do with you , as she cannot see a good outcome unless somehting changes fast ,

hence she has withdrawn from you in the home in all ways available to her ,
all her other actions are a sign to me she is trying to kill time as best as she can , silent endurance , FSU women are masters at this tactic ,
you will only get her to to talk with you WHEN SHE DECIDES IT IS OK 

i can totally understand her position , you have been examined , tested and fell below the pass mark jmana
you have failed to understand what is needed at each hurdle , and you think she has the issues that need fixing , even her faith is not respected , all of this she has read from your actions

you should talk with her asap and and discuss options for the future , what she wants to do and then help her to to do it

dont take it too personally , jmho , you have been honest and that is a good thing for others to read from and learn , this whole thread is a huge learning chapter if someone wants to learn and change
SX

[Misha]

How long has Alina been in the USA? It takes at least 2 to 3 weeks to recover from jetlag. Jetlag leaves people sleepy along with the stress of moving to a new country...

[BillyB]

she now is on silent strike ,

Maybe jmana needs to go on silent strike too. Quit working, quit cleaning, quit cooking, quit talking and maybe he'll get lucky with a neglected, hungry Alina begging him to return her home. Doesn't really matter if jmana or Alina is to blame for the direction the relationship is going. The bottom line is that it needs to end. It'll be healthy for everybody, especially for the kids, to get out of this situation.


jmana, we feel Alina doesn't want to bond with you but does she give your son as much care and attention with the purpose of bonding with him as you are doing with her daughter? Did she ever ask him if he was hungry and assist him in any way? Kids are innocent and there's no reason for her to go on a silent strike with your son.

[southernX]

jmana, we feel Alina doesn't want to bond with you but does she give your son as much care and attention with the purpose of bonding with him as you are doing with her daughter? Did she ever ask him if he was hungry and assist him in any way? Kids are innocent and there's no reason for her to go on a silent strike with your son.

my guess billy would be that the answer is no she doesnt

logic /her possible perspective is why would she ??  no sense to waste her energy on bonding when she cannot see any future with his dad , it would just make the situation worse later for her and her child when /if they leave


pretty cut and dried , but true

SX

[lonedrake]

[die_cast]

along the lines of their posts, my theory:

he told her in russia that his was a marriage proposal.  and now that she has arrived at his home, he is showing no signs of commitment nor progress toward marriage.  she is feeling humiliated that she is being evaluated during a test drive period.  during this period, she has no freedom/independent transportation, no cash, no access to medical care for her motion sickness problem.  hell, he didn't even meet her when she arrived in the usa.  she has also declared no sex until marriage.  and while most non-virgin rw who are certain of their man's intention to marry would have long ago jumped into the sack -- she sounds too proud to put her bedroom skills up for evaluation, too.  frankly i don't blame her.

i believe that alina recognizes now that it is a mistake.  she is on a 'silent strike', as willowtree so aptly phrased.  unfortunately, with only $200 in her pocket, she cannot return home until the hero decides that her evaluation period is over, and he buys her a return plane ticket.  sad.

I have to say, I love how we are reading this and assume that she is a victim.  I don't see any victims there.
She had nothing in St.-P. except her backround, that she really left there and should sorry about. She had no good job (career) - last time she actually had no any job, she had no her own flat, her child didn't go to daycare. She has a mother and a stepdad, who didn't really help her and expect her to live by her own. And she wasn't really good in it, probably she is a passive one. What she really needed is to find a man, who would take care of her, support her, bring up her child, etc. And she found one!  Why do you feel sorry for her? Now she has a man, lives in his house, he earns money for her and her child, he cooks, he cleans, he wash clothes, he pay attention to her child, he doesn't force her to do anything, he doesn't want to have sex with her, she is free to do whatever she wants! She is just a lucky one!  She got a provider and she hasn't give anything in return!
No independent transportation? But does she need it? Where will she go? She spends her days with her laptop, guys, it's a winter, where is she supposed to go?
No cash? What would she buy and where? If she really need anything - she would ask about it.
No access to medical declared for her motion sickness problem? What Russians would go to the doctor because of car sickness really?
It's not a mistake for her. At least I don't see anything like that. She probably doesn't like USA at all, but she have a stability now, which she didn't have in her home city and which she was looking for. Don't feel sorry for her, she is fine. 

[Gator]

Don't feel sorry for her, she is fine. 

I appreciate your perspective and I agree with you.  Not 100% agreement because I do not believe "she is fine."  Her behavior is not normal, so something is wrong.  For sure she is not in love.   

So we should say "her life is better, but not fine."   

And if she returned to Russia I assert her prospects for a better life would not be good if her behavior with jmana is her true nature. 


We can only speculate why she listed herself with an agency to attract foreign men.  She has found a man, and was attracted to him enough to state in writing she wanted to marry him (requirement of the fiancée visa petition).  And upon arrival in  America this man (jmana) seems IMO to be doing much more right than wrong.  If so, why is she not closing the deal?  Why is she driving jmana away from her rather than drawing him closer?

[jmana]

I appreciate your perspective and I agree with you.  Not 100% agreement because I do not believe "she is fine."  Her behavior is not normal, so something is wrong.  For sure she is not in love.   

So we should say "her life is better, but not fine."   

And if she returned to Russia I assert her prospects for a better life would not be good if her behavior with jmana is her true nature. 


We can only speculate why she listed herself with an agency to attract foreign men.  She has found a man, and was attracted to him enough to state in writing she wanted to marry him (requirement of the fiancée visa petition).  And upon arrival in  America this man (jmana) seems IMO to be doing much more right than wrong.  If so, why is she not closing the deal?  Why is she driving jmana away from her rather than drawing him closer?

Actually it wasn't an "agency" and she didn't state that she was looking for a foreign man.  It was an international dating site (I can't remember which one) and she had put that she was open to dating someone from outside of russsia, which is why she came up on my search results, but she certainly wasn't seeking out someone from outside her country.  That was one of the reasons I wrote to her to begin with.  I always question the motives of girls who specifically search out men from specific countries.  I always find it funny when I see the ones who put that they want a man from France, Paris preferably    You'd be surprised how many I saw that were that specific. 

[Muzh]

Maybe jmana needs to go on silent strike too. Quit working, quit cleaning, quit cooking, quit talking and maybe he'll get lucky with a neglected, hungry Alina begging him to return her home. Doesn't really matter if jmana or Alina is to blame for the direction the relationship is going. The bottom line is that it needs to end. It'll be healthy for everybody, especially for the kids, to get out of this situation.

Wow, the most mature advice to date. Excellent!!!
 
There you have it Jmana, be two peas in a pod.