Poll for the unmarried men

[Turboguy]

The very best lessons and advice one gets in life do not come sugar-coated. Some taste of P and vinegar and gunpowder.

If one is to know himself, does one also sugar-coat that also?

TG,  I think it is more cruel to agree with a fool than to point out the faults of his inexperienced thinking.  The married guys all offer valid points, though lite on the sugar.

Tim, there is a difference between sugar coating the truth and being hurtful and cruel.  As far as your statement about agreeing with a fool.  First the use of the word fool is insulting to anyone and being a newby does not make someone a fool.  Someone who consideres someone like photoguy who asked for help and was making his first trip and first meeting with an FSU woman a fool rather than a newby has a poor attitude.  I never said we should have agreed with photo guy.  I said we should have given him advice instead of insults.

I said in my last post I had voted for " I was going to do what I wanted no mater what they said'  I want to talk about that a little more and try to relate it to Photoguy.  To make my point, I have to talk about my business a little.

16 years ago I started a small manufacturing business.  I had gone though a few bad things and was very undercapitalized.   I made up for that by working around the clock and trying to do as much as I could myself.  I would often work 72 hours without stopping and averaged 120-130 hours of work a week.  It started to have some small successes.  

Once it started to go a bit I was working on coming out with my first nice sales brocure to show my product.  Our sales at that point were about $ 100,000.  I put a lot of effort into laying out something that answered peoples questions and presented my product in a good way.  One of the guys who sold for me had a good frfriendho was an advertising expert.  He looked at my brocure and said it was terrible.  He said there were far to many details and it read more like an operators manual and that sales brochures should not have real information in them.  At that time in my life, I did not have a lot of self confidence about a lot of the things I did in my business.  If someone who knew what they were doing said you should not do that, I just assumed they knew more than I did and blindly followed their advice.  If an advertising executive said my brocure was bad, I would normally have trashed it.  If jb ad said you should dump a gal who didn't kiss you, I would have dumped her.   I thought long and hard about that brochure.  I finally was conviced enough that the information needed to be there that I went ahead with my version.  The first year we had that new brocure, our sales went up 300%  the following year they doubled.  If I had listened to his advice, I might not be in business today.  As it is we are not the biggest in dollar sales but we sell more units than any other company in the world.

What does this have to do with Doug or with me saying I voted for what I did.  This is where it fits.  I can think of no life worse than living life by someone other persons ideas of what is right and wrong.   If Doug had listened to the advice and dumped Larisa and went through life wondering if he had made the biggest mistake of his life because Anono thought she was unglier than a junk yard dog and jb thought she was low classed trailer trash I think he could be haunted forever.  As it is, right or wrong, he acted like a man and made his own decisions.  If they are wrong, he will find out and learn from it.  If they are right, he will have found his happiness.  One way or the other he will have no doubts and can go on with his life with his head held high wherever that life takes him.

The same applies to me.  I will listen hard to whatever advice anyone offers.  I will think hard about any concepts they put forth and do my best to learn from the mistakes of others when I see them.  Then I will asses my needs and what is right for me and do exactly what seems to be right for me and if it does or doesn't work out, they will be my mistakes or my right decisions and I will live with whatever consequences they bring to me good or bad.

[Turboguy]

That not getting kissed in my mind was the deciding factor that created a lot of the controversy.  Photoguy never posted anything about it but told me in confidence the whole story.  I am not going to repeat it becuase it is private and I was not asked to, but I will say that there was more to it and I will go this far.  He did something that pissed her off and that is why he didn't get kissed.  If you know the whole story it was not that big a deal.  If I were her, I would not have kissed him either.  Being me, I most certainly wouldn't.

[Son of Clyde]

Son of Clyde,

I assume you are one of the;¦nbsp; "doesn't matter, I will do what I want to do anyway" votes, since you never listened to a single word any of the old married men said.¦nbsp; Ever.

I was waiting for that.

JB, I made a response to JP's remark. i have seen one picture of him at a RWG meeting somewhere. He is a total mystery man having exposed nothing of his past on RWG. I never thought of JP as an old married guy. He was a good moderator, I will give him credit for that. He was always neutral which is a pretty good quality when things get out of control. I speak in the third person because it is how he acknowledged me.

[Jack]

 Should already married men be allowed to post in areas predominated by newbies and other unmarried men?

At first when I read this question I thought it was a joke, but see it is a real question.

I think this board would lose a lot if the married, experienced members of this board were restricted to any degree. Those offended by the clue bat I think will have a harder time of it until the learn to wear a batting helmet. One has to be open to a lot of things including listening to others and then try to make educated decisions based on his own beliefs and feelings but at the least, learn from the mistakes others have made.

As an unmarried man I am trying to learn as much as I can from these married guys.

[Jet]

It was because of his willingness to impart this information to me that I was as well prepared for my trip as I was.  Did I follow his advice?  For the most part, I did until I had enough experience to make my own informed decisions.

Any man that even considers a RW or therefore, any foreign woman, as a potential mate, is somewhat of a rebel or a nonconformist any way.  He is willing to follow the beat of his own drummer.  I know I fall into that category.  But I am also smart enough to listen and learn all that I can before I jump into anything in which I have little or no knowledge or experience.

When I originally found "the other board" I had already met my wife. At first it was somewhat reassuring to find out that I had handled phase 1 in a similar manner to what the collective wisdom of vetraveteransested. I did a ton of reading before I ever made my first post. The wisdom of those who went before me, and their willingness to share it, eliminated the need for me to ask a lot of "dumba$$ newbie questions", but when the time came that my situation was sufficiently complex that I couldn't find the information I sought, I started posting, and guys like jb, Leslie, Witchdoctor, B/B, AndrewFi, and Wineglass, were there to offer opinions that I valued GREATLY. They helped me through some uncertain times with much appreciated guidance. They didn't always agree, and I didn't always use everything that was offered up, but them and many others helped me to formulate an informed gameplan that worked for me.

I don't recall ever being a "clue bat" victim, but I also tried hard not to waste the valuable time of others with silly or inarticulate questions, and I didn't see anything productive coming out of arguing points I couldn't defend with people who had "been there and done that".

[Jumper]

jb-

why would the unmaried guys  be *cruising* the married section to find your poll?
especially the ones that would answer it..
(or it seems mostly just the ones that would answer that they WANTED the married guys advice right? )

I think you polled in here to squew the dang results!!
something smells fishy in Helisinki!!
 Â and i want a recount! heh!

 
Hey just thought i'd give you some grief!  hadn't seen you in awhile! LOL

i'm feeling rather "old and married" and nostalgic looking at all the names *here*!!

[Joe Kerr]

I've pursued the same strategy of "watch and learn" as a preliminary research step.  This international/Internet scene is only in its early stages so you guinea pig married guys pioneered your way to Russia and back to tell the tale. 

I am so cautious after reading all I could about finding a chick behind the old Iron Curtain.  Now, I'm ready to start writing and see how this goes. 

I detect a schism between the married, divorced and never married guys.  The divorced ones who have learned the downside of marriage are leery making the same mistake twice.  The married are satisfied they made a good choice in a spouse.  The nevermarried guys like me figure its time to take a calculated risk as time ticks away into middle age.  I'll give it a shot since I've always wanted to see Russia and 30 days in Siberia (?) would be worth it. 

It doesn't seem as if too many of you are married to Siberian women.  What's the reputed character of women from the Wild East?       

[jb]

T/G;

I dunno if Larrisa and Doug are still together or not, I suspect the 90 day visa has by now expired, and that means one of two things; a,) they are married, or; b.) she caught a eastbound plane.  Either way, I never wished any bad or evil things off on them, amazed and appalled at some of the insanity that passes for logic, yes, but never hoping for them to fail.  However, if anyone ever wanted to write a theme based story, "How to have a train wreck", I'd say Doug's original T/R would have been a good outline for the book.

[Son of Clyde]

However, if anyone ever wanted to write a theme based story, "How to have a train wreck", I'd say Doug's original T/R would have been a good outline for the book.

jb, I think it is time to let it be. Doug will post here if he feels it is necessary. I really don't think using his T'R would be a good idea there are many other stories. Doug's is one scenerio and lets hope it is not over. And there are things we will never know and shouldn't know about the situation.

[jb]

AJ, is that really you???

It's great to see you here, hope things are going well for you guys.  BTW, did you change phone numbers on me?  I've tried several time to call and never connected.  I'm thinking the last time we talked was when we were going to Robinson, Illinois for the funeral of that AM/RW couple who died in the car crash.  Or,,, have you seriously wrecked another crotch rocket lately?  I figured one of the reason I couldn't reach you may have been because you tested a too much horsepower motorbike without your helmet again. :noidea:

I see you picked up on the "tongue-in-cheek" nature of the poll, you know me too well, I was trying to point up the outlandish nature of some posters.  Also highlighting the differences between the fantasy seeker and the men in the trenches is sometimes necessary.  You've been married long enough to qualify as an "old married" guy, with Gawd only knows how many times you've been across the pond to the FSU. 

In any case I hope you'll stick around, KenC, Jet, Leslie, and me could use another friend around here.

[Turboguy]

jb, you are right.  Larisa's visa is over or about over and one of two things happened. They either got married or she went back.   I really bebelieveou wished them the best.  I can agree it was very likely a train wreck waiting to happen.  Doug did some things in ways that may not have been the way it should have been done.  I agree he should have made follow up trips and perhaps he should have made one more before he decided on the K-1.  I don't have a bit of problem with any of that.  If they married, I hope they find happiness together.  If she returned, I hope Doug has learned from this board and from his experiences and will not make the same mistake twice.  To be honest, I know which way it went but I am not telling.  Which ever way it went, I surmise we have seen the last of Doug.

When, with a little help from Dan, I found this board it has been one of the biggest assets in my search for the right FSU woman for me.  I have learned a lot from everyone and I have made a few friends that are really great people.  I feel I am much better prepaired to go about my search than I was before RWD.  

I have butted heads with you more than a few times.  Many times it was over Doug.  It wasn't so much that I thought Doug was right or that you were wrong.  You are a very intelligent person with a lot of experience and good ideas and Doug was a newbie making some mistakes.   The reason I jumped in was only partially because I cared about Doug and his hopes.  It was just as much that I cared about RWD.   My objection was the way the "help" was dispensed.  

I had a member PM me yestereday about something and I am not going to say anything in detail except that in his PM he mentionded he was thmentionedgiving up on RWD because he was tired of the nasty remarks and the guys who think they have all the answers and use the clue bat to display thier superiority._|theirt seems to me that a lot of the people who come here fall into two (maybe 3) catagories,   We havcategories guys here who are very knowledgable and rather direct in their approach, blunt if you will and you, Andrewfin, Leslie, Ken C, and BC are in that group.  There are another group who tends to be a little more laid back and lets say more gentile in their approach to things.  I will put myself in the group, Doug would have been, Ken from Virginia, Clyde, and lots more.  There is probably a third group actually who is knowlegable, will say it like it is but is considerate in how they say it.  I will put Jet in that group as well as many others.  

To me the danger is that if those who are direct drive off the ones who are more conserate such as Doug and the others who get tired of the BS then this place is going to go to pot.  Newbies who come here a little curious and needing help the most will be very turned off if all they see the worst of RWD.  I think the board needs to be a place where we can share our feelings and our ideas.  I think it needs to be a place that is where we can help people like Doug from making mistakes.  I think it needs to be a helpful place.   I don't want it to be moderated, to be where someone sits there and decides what we can say.  I think it needs to be a place where we all use a little common sense and courtesy when we try to help others.   I don't think we need to be driving off anyone.  If it becomes a place controlled by the clue batters it is not going to be what it can be.  Too many people will just find someplace where people are helpful and friendly.

You might say this won't happen.  I have seen it happen.  In my industry there was a trade association whose forum got taken over by clue batters.  In that forum your counterpart was a guy from Phonix named Rick,  Leslies was a guy PhoenixShaun.  It became a place whose main purpose was to beat the newbies with the clue bat.  Before long there were no newbies.  It was a forum for the trade association for my industry.  Today not only the forum but the association is gone.  Yes, there is a new Association and a new forum where that stuff is not tolerated.  Incidentally I started the new association and the forum is mine and Rick, your counterpart is actually a valuable contributor but he knows he has to leave the clue bat in the closet.  

I just think we can all help each other more and make RWD the place it can be if we treat people the way we would want them to treat us.



 

[Son of Clyde]

Turbo that is a nice post. The one thing we have to remember is that personalities take years to develop and the person has to be willing to try different approaches.

I received many PM's from Doug just asking me how I was doing or asking a question about something he did not want to post on the board. Mostly it was question about timelines.

Doug is a bus driver and I must say he can be a very articulate guy. Bus driver's are not all Ralph Kramden types. My grandfather retired as a bus driver. My father's people were farmers and some tried other jobs. My mother's people were Italian immigrants and her father had his own construction company. My generation was the first to attend college.

Doug had an innocent naive quality that I tend to have and he had never been married either.

I have no problem with jb, KenC, ConnerVt, Leslie or anyone from that group of "organized" types. I will tell you, I am not very organized but I managed to file the AOS without an attorney and the only problems were with DHS and SSA.

Tough love, clue bats are ok if you can back them up with a little compassion from time to time.

[jb]

T/G,

Should I surmise that was your effort to "clue bat" me regards board etiquette? 

Maybe I shouldn't speak the way I do, however I was raised and educated to call a spade, well,,, a spade.  I do not subscribe to the notion that one should hand a child a cookie with one hand and then punish with the other.  That's dishonest.  You may not like what I have to say, but I won't hang noodles from your ears (that's a Russian expression meaning to "sugarcoat") before I get to the point of the conversation.

As I've told you before, I don't care who you marry, or even if you marry, but I often shake my head in amazement at your antics.  You have the ability to behave in the most ludicrous fashion.  You have spent a small fortune on this venture and I've yet to see evidence that you've learned anything from this board or any other.  You tell us you are a man pushing 60, yet you are still enthralled with the notion of a 20's y.o. girl in your bed.  Do you not realize there was a reason why the age difference question has been hammered to death so many times on every board out there?  I don't recall you ever discussing qualities you think are admirable in a wife, or even if you know how to extract that kind of information from a girl you've dated, hence you also question the wisdom of not dating young girls you cannot talk to.  You further continue to argue with the common logic offered by all the married men who post here.  You pay little but lip service to the roadmap laid out for you by men who have gone before you. You bought and paid for a K-1 girl younger than your own children and was disappointed when she balked at marrying you, duh,,, talk about your luke warm IQ's.

I have never said I have all the answers, or that mine was the right path to follow, you couldn't follow in my footsteps even if you tried.  I do post from experience those ideas that I feel will help a man reduce or minimize his risks in an already risky business, you may choose to use this information, or not.  Your choice.  However, do not try to lay the blame for Doug, or any other newbie for that matter, not frequenting the board any longer at my doorstep or at the doorstep of any other board member who pointed out his follies.   I would expect any newbie who comes here to read some of these threads, and say to himself; "My God~!  This ain't gonna be as easy as I thought".   

That's the value of a board such as this

[BC]

Just out of curiosity I just visited a couple of other boards.  A popular one with newbies has become quite a hard hitter, even tolerating folks that were not tolerated here.  The other is well.. quite 'blank' with few regular posters, uses a webaddress similar to this one but quite PC at first sight.

When it comes to overall balance and thought inducing atmosphere - RWD has it, notches above the rest.

[Leslie]

TG,

Yet another long post on tolerance and politeness which has so many logical inconsistencies if I list them you will make yet another accusation of me being rude.

I will take one point -

"I think it needs to be a place that is where we can help people like Doug from making mistakes. I think it needs to be a helpful place."

I tried to help Doug. Later I advised him not to start the thread in no holds barred where he predictably got torn to shreds. Doug was beyond the help of any internet board. He was only looking for validation of his own delusions. The ever more strident tone of the posts designed to shake him out of his thinking only made him retire further into his own world. I made a final attempt to get everyone to "lay off" Doug on his still open thread on his experiences with Larissa after she had arrived in the USA. Of course I failed.

I reckon Larissa has decided to go back to Ukraine. She was the person calling the shots right from the beginning. Doug wanted to marry her before they even met. The community at RWD tried to help him but he simply would not listen. Doug is a lonely "hole in the soul" type who lived his wish fulfillment fantasies. He was not a bad guy. I never wished him ill but he should never have got involved in this process. The problem is Doug not the community here.

The main question you pose is one of inclusion.

Should RWD be so tolerant as to include everyone?? IMHO NO.

Over the 6 years I have been involved in this process I have come to realize that a large percentage of the guys are "nutcases". Definitely not the sort of people I would ever associate with socially in the real world. These guys don't have what it takes to succeed and pile driving them with the clue bat won't help. Nowadays I usually agnore them. I will only intervene in a couple of circumstances. First, if someone offers ludicrous advice. Post sh*t and I will tell you it stinks! The second is if a guy is abusive to FSU women e.g. Sonar

You decided to take that lying scumbag's side and in doing so demonstrated appalling judgement. Guy's like that have no place in our community. Neither do middle aged sex tourists.

I don't think any community can be that tolerant and have integrity.
 

[KenC]

If you really think about it, "clue batting" is oh so very Russian I often wonder how these "sensitive" men will handle things when their RW verbally smacks them upside the head?

I also don't buy into the concept that the jb's, Leslie's, or BC's are the terrible ogres many here portray them (us?) to be. I have seen these guys go through many a hoop to try and help someone in need. They are the most compassionate men posting here. As I have said before the clue bat comes out when the newbie is using some flawed logic in his decision making or erroneously discounts the advice given. I know my personal bugaboo is when an uninformed or an inexperience poster's bullsheet advice is given the same credence as advice coming from posters that really do know what is going on. ALL ADVICES OFFERED ARE NOT EQUAL. Of course everyone in entitled to an opinion, but opinions are not necessarily good advice. Like my Father used to say, "opinions are like a$$holes, everyone has one."
KenC

[jb]

Les said:

I don't think any community can be that tolerant and have integrity.

I agree wholeheartedly.  Integrity is a word not often seen these days, but those men who have it, guard it fiercely.  As a community we have to set bounds within which we can operate and still look ourselves in the eye come shaving time tomorrow, Sonar exceeded those bounds, SmothOperator sometimes sets foot over the line with his "PP" dialogue and doesn't seem to realize that by doing so he marginalizes his own thoughts.  There are others we could dredge up, but those immediately come to mind.

I guess the question a man has to ask himself is; "How serious do I want people to see the real me?"  Posting far fetched fantasy wish fulfillment driven dreams will not endear a man to me.  I enjoy seeing a man with realistic goals pursue a path of well informed decisions, seeing someone struggle with learning Russian, seeing someone's impression after a trip, hearing of the delight at discovering the inherent sweeetness of Russians.  It's almost as if I can relive my own experience though someone else's eyes.  If a man goes at it like a middle aged pedophile looking for the 30+'s year age gap and he will earn my disrespect.  I will not validate those kinds of wish fulfillment.

But that's just me.

[Turboguy]

Oh, I think I stirred up a hornets nest.  it will be fun anyway.

Ok jb, first off,  Yes, you definately call a spade a spade.  You spent a lot of your post talking about me.  There wasn't much in my post that refered to me.  I am not sure what my choice in women has to do with being civil to people.  But as far as being enthralled with the notion of a 20 something year old gal in my bed, If I was only concerned about what the gal was like in my bed I would be just has happy with a 30 or 40 year old.  They all have the same plumbing and the older ones are sometimes more experienced.  The bedroom has little to do with my choice of women.

As far as Sonar Leslie,  I have to agree that any guy who leaves his gal sit in a truck alone for hours and then sends her back in 5 days is not someone to emulate, however I sort of got in the habit of defeding someone who gets attacked and sometimes habits are hard to break.  Sometimes what we hear that sounds outlandish is not quite the same if you actually live it.   Sonar may well have been a jerk and perhaps it was just the gal.  One way or the other it is ancient history.  

Ken, I was not saying you guys are terrible ogres.  I am saying you are direct, sometimes blunt and sometimes a little too blunt to do the good that you want to do.  I think you are all very intelligent, guys who want to help people.  I think you all have a lot of knowlege that most guys would benefit from.  I just think you need to work on your delivery a bit.  

Jb, look up pedophile in the dictionary.  Gals in their late 20's to early 40's are not innocent children.  Actually some of the AM might be " nnocent" compared to some of the fsu women in that age.

[Ste]

I too have been skirting around the other boards like BC and even posting a bit. I can't beleive some of the threads though, one guy goes off East and gets engaged to his 'Lady' after six days face time (actually proposed after two) and gets pats on the back from the regulars. OK there's being nice and wishing people luck but sometimes it needs to said, not nastily, step back, think, go again etc. So I said it and suddenly I'm a pessimist and there's 'always one' etc.

I also agree with Leslie (I think leslie said it) and go a bit further to say you have to a bit lacking somewhere to go abroad to find a wife, IN MOST CASES, before I get jumped on.

I dunno if it's a mistaken impression but it seems to me most here have RW's mostly by some sort of accident and not via the agency route. Certainly my case - I don't know a thing about agencies except I wouldn't go near one.

Gonna stop now and have a think!

Ste

[tim 360]

Tim, there is a difference between sugar coating the truth and being hurtful and cruel. ¦nbsp;As far as your statement about agreeing with a fool. ¦nbsp;First the use of the word fool is insulting to anyone and being a newby does not make someone a fool. ¦nbsp;Someone who consideres someone like photoguy who asked for help and was making his first trip and first meeting with an FSU woman a fool rather than a newby has a poor attitude. ¦nbsp;I never said we should have agreed with photo guy. ¦nbsp;I said we should have given him advice instead of insults.

I said in my last post I had voted for " I was going to do what I wanted no mater what they said' ¦nbsp;I want to talk about that a little more and try to relate it to Photoguy. ¦nbsp;To make my point, I have to talk about my business a little.

16 years ago I started a small manufacturing business. ¦nbsp;I had gone though a few bad things and was very undercapitalized. ¦nbsp; I made up for that by working around the clock and trying to do as much as I could myself. ¦nbsp;I would often work 72 hours without stopping and averaged 120-130 hours of work a week. ¦nbsp;It started to have some small successes. ¦nbsp;

Once it started to go a bit I was working on coming out with my first nice sales brocure to show my product. ¦nbsp;Our sales at that point were about $ 100,000. ¦nbsp;I put a lot of effort into laying out something that answered peoples questions and presented my product in a good way. ¦nbsp;One of the guys who sold for me had a good frfriendho was an advertising expert. ¦nbsp;He looked at my brocure and said it was terrible. ¦nbsp;He said there were far to many details and it read more like an operators manual and that sales brochures should not have real information in them. ¦nbsp;At that time in my life, I did not have a lot of self confidence about a lot of the things I did in my business. ¦nbsp;If someone who knew what they were doing said you should not do that, I just assumed they knew more than I did and blindly followed their advice. ¦nbsp;If an advertising executive said my brocure was bad, I would normally have trashed it. ¦nbsp;If jb ad said you should dump a gal who didn't kiss you, I would have dumped her. ¦nbsp; I thought long and hard about that brochure. ¦nbsp;I finally was conviced enough that the information needed to be there that I went ahead with my version. ¦nbsp;The first year we had that new brocure, our sales went up 300% ¦nbsp;the following year they doubled. ¦nbsp;If I had listened to his advice, I might not be in business today. ¦nbsp;As it is we are not the biggest in dollar sales but we sell more units than any other company in the world.

What does this have to do with Doug or with me saying I voted for what I did. ¦nbsp;This is where it fits. ¦nbsp;I can think of no life worse than living life by someone other persons ideas of what is right and wrong. ¦nbsp; If Doug had listened to the advice and dumped Larisa and went through life wondering if he had made the biggest mistake of his life because Anono thought she was unglier than a junk yard dog and jb thought she was low classed trailer trash I think he could be haunted forever. ¦nbsp;As it is, right or wrong, he acted like a man and made his own decisions. ¦nbsp;If they are wrong, he will find out and learn from it. ¦nbsp;If they are right, he will have found his happiness. ¦nbsp;One way or the other he will have no doubts and can go on with his life with his head held high wherever that life takes him.

The same applies to me. ¦nbsp;I will listen hard to whatever advice anyone offers. ¦nbsp;I will think hard about any concepts they put forth and do my best to learn from the mistakes of others when I see them. ¦nbsp;Then I will asses my needs and what is right for me and do exactly what seems to be right for me and if it does or doesn't work out, they will be my mistakes or my right decisions and I will live with whatever consequences they bring to me good or bad.

TurboGuy,  Firstly,I hate to tell you this but there are fools in this world as politically incorrect as that may sound to you. Secondly,I did not even mention the name of Doug or PG at all in any context or in any inference. In fact I don't post about him or even think about him. So where all this comes from I am at a lack to understand the above. Maybe you are thinking overmuch about him, but I can assure you I am not. But it does bring to mind a local fool who learned a good lesson the hard way.

A local auto mechanic (not on my car) decides to build his own house despite that fact that he has zero experience. He buys a set of plans and reads a book on building and gets his buddies together and they build a kinda nice looking 2 story cape over the warm season. It almost looks good. But its a little crooked and slants off to the right. The locals have to admit it looks surprisingly like a well-built house...except for being crooked. But it is nicely painted. In November a little sag appears in the middle of the roof. It snows 2 feet and the roof crashes into the second floor and continues to the first floor taking all the snow and lumber with it. Luckily no one was home. So yes there are fools. Ciao, Tim

[Turboguy]

Ok Tim,  I was answering about three posts at one time so I am sorry if I misread your post.  I can agree there are fools in the world.  A long time ago, I did the same thing.  Bought some plans and a book and built a house.  Turned out just fine.

A few years ago I tried to help my former son in law build a 2800 sq ft victorian.  I was supposed to show him how and let him do most of the work (I did my share).  I pointed out a lot of things that he was not doing the way he should but he really didn't seem to listen.  Well, the house has had it's problems.  Not to disagree with myself but perhaps I should have used the clue bat.

[catzenmouse]

I think in many ways the "clue bat" is equal to a "reality check" but with a bit more bruise factor to it. It can be used mercifully or cruelly. Some who are out of touch with reality will react well to one way and some to another. It boils down to "Will they step back and listen to what is said or get stubborn and fight back without looking at what truth there is in the beating they get". If it is the latter then no matter what is said or how it is said will make any difference to how they will act or react.

 For me personally if I was just getting into this adventure my first reaction to a beating would be to feel that the person was just a jerk and maybe get snippy back with them. But, I (at least I hope I am) not so pig headed to not be able to look back and see that there is knowledge to be had and lessons to be learned from those who have been doing this for some time. And to come back to those who beat me and let them know that my reaction was out of line and that their time and experience are appreciated.

 This type of relationship is not for the wimpy of nature or the easily bruised ego. FSUW are strong, hard, and very blunt at times. This is part of what makes them so special and keeps them going when many WM would have folded under the pressure. I'm still learning a LOT about how this works and about myself and about Elena. I see this as a very good thing. I keep an eye on a couple of other boards but not very often anymore as the depth of information here is filled with more than enough information and ideas to fill my little pointy head to the brim and to overflowing.

 If I was in a situation where I needed some straight up advice, the real and often dirty truth, I would not hesitate to contact jb, Leslie, BC, or KenC as I know that even though I have been at odds with them on things in the past that they will tell me what I need to know directly without any fluff. I respect that as I do them. I don't always agree with how they post as I am sure that there are many here who think unkindly thoughts towards me. I don't worry about that or them as I have a life to live and a family to take care of. That is my reality and the most important thing in my life. There are other situations where the advice I would be looking for would come from other sources here who are in similar timeframes and situations to my own. In those cases I contact those people who I trust to also tell me the truth but in a more situational comparitive way. Each way has value depending upon the situation and need.

 We are all just doing the best we can with what we have. I make my share (and more) of mistakes and if something I post here is of help to someone then all the better. Enough rambling.

Ken

[Jumper]

jb- yeap it's me!

Been a coupla years and everything is great
actually T's in Ukraine right now visiting her family , hence me having any time to read or post .. here or anywhere !
as far as crashing LOL !  I was just in Socal doing some testing last week actually, but its all in the dirt, no street stuff   My cell probably did change? as i'm sure i switched plans over the coupla'  years, so i'll trade you contact info..
i had tried to call you when I was in houston last month for the supercross race,but i dint seem to have the correct number anymore =/

Les! holy cow! it's been a longer time than when i've seen jb around..
and looks like things are going well!

I do see so many names,, BC, Ken , Jet, Maxx , fred, jack ,etc etc etc
i feel  a bit bad i've been out of touch,, but just been so busy with everything, work, life in general, no real time for net browsing..
 

[jb]

Jb, look up pedophile in the dictionary.

I know full well the definition of "Pedophile",  my point was to illustrate the relative wrong headedness of a 60 y.o. man chasing a 20's y.o. girl.  She is, comparitively speaking, a mere child compared to a grandfatherly figure such as yourself.  That's why a lot of my post was about you.  You are one of the biggest offenders when it comes to arguing with, or ignoring, all of the collective wisdom of the board.  Continue as you are with your own fantasy and wish fulfillment driven desires and one day we will be holding your case up as an example of what not to do.

You have a few trips to the Rodina under your belt and as such, are not a "newbie", I shouldn't have to speak softly to you.  You are a fully grown up man, why don't you try acting like one?

[jb]

AJ,

Etna will be headed back home at the end of the month and will be gone til the end of June.  If you are preforming anywhere within striking distance of Texas maybe we can hook up for a visit???

I'd like that a lot.