LOT refuses boarding!!!!!

[mies]

Mies brings up some interesting points. It really is a mess! 
 
Wife and daughter turned in their applications for the Russian internal passports. They did not take away their old passports at that time. Of course, they need to use the Ukrainian passport until they get the Russian ones. Their passport is the primary means of identification. They use it every day.
 
They don't know when they will start processing the international passports.
 
The whole land ownership problem needs to be solved. First of all, a large percent of Crimea could be public or govenment owned. Perhaps Russia could purchase that land.
 
The most expensive land in Crimea is along the southern coast on the Black Sea. There are some very large, expensive homes that are owned by non-Russians.

Their Ukrainian passports will be taken away when they will be receiving Russian passports. Russia is very clear about this. If a foreign citizen wants to receive a Russian citizenship - (s)he should forgo their foreign citizenship.
Now, if a Russian citizen wants to receive a foreign citizenship - Russia allows him/her to keep both citizenship, it is not required in this case to forgo a Russian citizenship.

[mies]

why not get a hotel-stay-type tourist visa?

those can be had within a few days.

I am not sure whether Russia already has all procedures in place to issue Russian visas into Crimea. Technically, Crimea is recognized as "part of Russia" by 10 countries in the world, and recognized as part of Ukraine by the rest of the countries in the world. UN Assembly also voted on their recent meeting few days ago that Crimea is a part of Ukraine.

[mies]

Can you prove this? Until today the only ones who destroyed their passports by burning them were Crimeans themselves. Nobody takes away your Ukrainian passport.

But of course. Google or read on the Russian embassies web sites the condition for receiving Russian citizenship. The laws of Russia require for a foreign citizen to give away their foreign citizenship the moment they are acquiring the Russian citizenship.

Plus, you wouldn't be that naive to think that Putin is so dumb as to allow the residents of Crimea to keep their Ukrainian citizenship and passports, which might allow Ukraine to insist on having Crimea back, on the pretext that it is defending Ukrainian citizens living in Crimea.

[mies]

You should have seen the faces of these "disgraced" Ukraine Navy officers last week when we all in the headquarters applied our documents for being transferred into Russian Feferation service, check how many officers from the Navy decided to remain Ukrainians and return to mainland. Especially these disgraced people were "upset" with the amount of salary they will get from now on. 

A brother of a good friend of mine is a marine, until recently he served on the naval ship in Crimea. Since the beginning of March, their ship was under constant armed attacks by the Russian navy and pro-russian "activists", they lived for weeks on meager food and water supply, the communications (phone, internet, TV/radio) were cut off by Russians, they had to escape to the sea from the shore because there were continuous attempts to take over the ship. They were offered higher salaries in Russia to commit the act of treason - pledge allegiance/give an oath to serve Russia. But they didn't give in, and stayed on the ship until the last day, when the Ukrainian command finally let them return to Ukraine.

You may not realize this, but switching from "serve Ukraine" to "serve Russia" constitutes the treason under Ukrainian law, and the laws of any civilized country. Giving away military equipment and weapons, ships, and property of the Ukrainian Army & Navy to the Russians, also constitutes the act of treason, as well as a number of other criminal offenses.
There are many American men on this board who served in the US Army and Navy, ask them what they think about the situation when the marines or soldiers are forced and coerced to break their military oath, and commit the treason against their state. What is it if it's not a disgrace?

As for the cadets of the Nahimov Naval Academy in Crimea (the best naval academy in the country), who supposedly cheered joining Russia - please see this video. They didn't cheer, they resigned from the academy, and sang the Anthem of Ukraine while leaving the premises of the academy:
http://censor.net.ua/video_news/276977/neskolko_desyatkov_kursantovmoryakov_v_sevastopole_otkazalis_perehodit_po_flag_rossii_i_v_znak_protesta

make sure you watch till the end of the video - to the 11th minute. See how the Russian orchestra starts playing again to mute the voices of the Ukrainian cadets singing their Anthem. I can't watch this video without tears.
This is a difference between "honor" and "disgrace". Some people just don't understand it.

[mies]

Crimeans already don't pay any attention on all this stuff that is heard on all the fora, word in word the same stated above
I saw photos of empty shop shelves on net, implying there are no products here and we have nothing to eat. [size=78%] About Ukrainian tourists I won't even comment, it's more than funny. Locals know. [/size]
Russia even returns to Ukraine its military techniques at its own expense as Ukraine has no money for doing this itself, and for Russia its cheaper to pay for transporting all this stuff to the mainland , than utilize it.

Let's see how you will start paying attention to this stuff when you will try to obtain a US or EU visa. Or a foreign passport of a Russian citizen. 
Or when you will be offered to "voluntarily relocate during 2014-2016" to Orenburg region, or some other remote and not-so-warm regions of Russia.
 

[ghost of moon goddess]

You should have seen the faces of these "disgraced" Ukraine Navy officers last week when we all in the headquarters applied our documents for being transferred into Russian Feferation service, check how many officers from the Navy decided to remain Ukrainians and return to mainland. Especially these disgraced people were "upset" with the amount of salary they will get from now on. 

They say these servicemen are more likely to be redeployed to remote Russia's Far East Naval headquarters.
Curious to find out whether they are thrilled at the prospect of moving farther from Maidan or dismayed at the prospect of moving closer to Magadan? 

[stilllooking]

Mies brings up some interesting points. It really is a mess! 
 
Wife and daughter turned in their applications for the Russian internal passports. They did not take away their old passports at that time. Of course, they need to use the Ukrainian passport until they get the Russian ones. Their passport is the primary means of identification. They use it every day.
 
They don't know when they will start processing the international passports.
 
The whole land ownership problem needs to be solved. First of all, a large percent of Crimea could be public or govenment owned. Perhaps Russia could purchase that land.
 
The most expensive land in Crimea is along the southern coast on the Black Sea. There are some very large, expensive homes that are owned by non-Russians.

If they change their passports from Ukrainian to Russian will that not cause issues with their Green Cards and the letters extending those past their expiry? Surely those have been handed to a Ukrainian citizen, not a Russian citizen?

[Wayne]

Years ago, I was a policeman in the US Air Force. If anyone had tried to do to our base what was done in Crimea, an alert would have been sounded. Within minutes, if the event was not down graded, every air force base would have been put on alert.
 
Every effort would have been made to quickly get the planes off the ground. Augmentee personnel would have responded, came to the police station, be armed and posted.
 
 

[ML]

Apparently the Ukrainian Defense Minister never gave any clear cut orders to the military in Crimea as to what response to make.

He was later (but much to late) replaced.

[Wayne]

Still looking:
 
If they change their passports from Ukrainian to Russian will that not cause issues with their Green Cards and the letters extending those past their expiry? Surely those have been handed to a Ukrainian citizen, not a Russian citizen
 
 
On the back side of the green card, the passport number from the Ukrainian international passport is listed. So it would be important to keep the Ukrainian international passport in order to enter USA.

[TheTraveler]

Too simple and would mean he might find out his wife not being entirely truthful.

Don't know the background of everything, but looking at this threat from the outside you can't help feeling somewhere something is not right. If it was my wife I would be in Ukraine/Russia doing my best to get her out or myself into Crimea and would not be exchanging emails with consulates etc but sitting on their doorstep. Nothing beats old fashioned face to face conversation to getting things done.

agree 100%

[Andrew Dorner]

I'm really quite surprised (and a bit disgusted) by all of the Wayne bashing going on. To call someone or his family a liar is really a bit too much in my opinion.

About a year and a half ago, I was trying to board a Delta Business Class flight from the US to Dubai. The A-hole Delta "supervisor" (he was helping out because it was busy) looked through my passport again and again (it is quite full with quadruple pages as I travel a lot for business). He finally asked me, "Where is your Dubai Visa?" Now, I've been to Dubai probably 20 or 25 times and I've never needed a visa. Americans get stamped in for 30 days for sneezing and 90 days if you smile. I told him that Americans didn't need a visa. He insisted that we do.

And so it began, a bit of a standoff and we went back and forth.

And finally, he said that because my return ticket was in 4 months, and I could only stay for 90 days unless I had a visa, he wasn't going to let me on the flight.

I then explained that I wasn't staying in Dubai the whole 4 months, I would be in several countries on business and only bought a roundtrip ticket to Dubai to save some $ and for convenience. He told me "too bad" (probably because I had argued with him and was sarcastic) and wouldn't let me board. I had to ask for another supervisor who finally let me on.

Now, if I was a less-than-aggressive Alpha male, I very may well have been excluded from that flight. Was Delta wrong? Yes. Does that get you on the airplane? No.

In this case was LOT wrong? Probably. Some "know it all A-hole" decided to play God.

It happens.

Busting Wayne's balls isn't cool at all.

Speaking of LOT. A few years ago, on a Chicago-Warsaw-Odessa flight, a LOT attendant came through the line pushing and acting like a huge male member. He pushed his way past an elderly Polish Woman and when she protested he yelled at her in Polish. To this day, I'll never know what he said but it was probably something to the effect of, "Shut up or I'll throw you off of this flight. I'm an Airline Representative and I can do it!"

The little Polish Babushka looked down with a look of shame on her face.

LOT A-hole then tried to push past me and I held my ground. He PHYSICALLY tried to push past me and I said, just loud enough for him to hear me, "If you touch me again, I'll put you down and hold you for the police. You have heard of a citizens arrest? Now, step back."

He was quite surprised, he stepped back and then ran straight to the nearest cop.

Sure enough, when it was time to board, I was pulled out of the line and the cop intended to kick me off the flight. I told him what happened and he changed his mind.

And so, can I see some LOT A-hole throwing his weight around because he thinks he's some KGB thug from 1988? Sure.

By the way, I was passing through Chicago last May and I saw the same LOT A-hole. I walked up, took his photo and told him that I remember him and that he's an A-hole.

Here he is:

[Wayne]

That was quite an interesting story! 
 
We had a problem with LOT in Chicago. I was there to straighten it out! I had waited at the airport until the flight left.
 
Here is a response from the Russian embassy:
 
 I believe that you get all necessary information you asked.  Here is the extracts from your first letter: If I want to travel to Crimea to see my wife, do I now need a Russian visa?
 ...your wife should arrange an invitation for you. She should write an invitation specifying the dates. We will issue a visa upon her invitation. Such kind of visa may be single or double entry visa not more that 90 days only.
  I see on your website that there is a three year visa that allows you to stay in Russia for six months.
We do not issue a three year visa for Crimea at the present moment.   My wife and daughter need to travel to USA in a few weeks. Will the authorities in Crimea allow them to travel on their Ukrainian passports?   Will they allow them to enter Crimea on their Ukrainian passports. Your wife and daughter may travel to Crimea upon their valid Ukrainian passport.  If you wish to get the same information in Russian I can send it to you.
   Best regards, Consular Division Visa Section
 С уважением, Консульский отдел Визовая секция

They did not answer one very important question.

[mies]

Years ago, I was a policeman in the US Air Force. If anyone had tried to do to our base what was done in Crimea, an alert would have been sounded. Within minutes, if the event was not down graded, every air force base would have been put on alert.
 
Every effort would have been made to quickly get the planes off the ground. Augmentee personnel would have responded, came to the police station, be armed and posted.

The reason why no alert was ever initiated on the military bases in Crimea was because the Ukrainian military command gave clear orders to all military personnel in Crimea "do not engage in ANY conflict with ANYONE. But defend the bases & property." They were explicitly forbidden to use any weapons or to harm or detain any of the attackers.
The logic behind such orders was that if any military conflict, shooting, etc. start in Crimea - this will give Russia the reason to bring in more troops to Crimea "to stabilize the situation" - just like it did in Georgia. So Ukrainian military command wanted to avoid giving such reason to Russia at practically any cost. It did, however, and unfortunately, demoralized the Ukrainian marines and soldiers greatly, because they felt they were given an impossible mission with unclear end date and outcome: "to defend the base at any cost but do not engage into the conflict and do not use any weapon" whereas Russian military and pro-Russian activists (which in some cases were Russian citizens and veterans of the Chechen wars  - were armed with AKs and were shooting into the air, threatening the Ukrainian military that next thing they are going to shoot them with the AKs.

[mies]

Here is a response from the Russian embassy:


They did not answer one very important question.

which one was it?

[Wayne]

Will they allow them to travel to USA or any other country on their Ukrainian passports?

[Jumper]

Andrew Dorner-
Small world, I recognize the LOT employee!  lol
I have never had an issue with him though.
 

[mies]

Will they allow them to travel to USA or any other country on their Ukrainian passports?

I don't think Russia can forbid the residents of Crimea to travel with their Ukrainian passports - after all this will be the decision of the admitting country which passport to accept.
However, I do think that it will be taking away Ukrainian passports from those Crimean residents who apply/receive the Russian passports.

So basically, the answer to your question is "yes, they can travel with Ukrainian passports while they have Ukrainian passports."
You also need to keep in mind that the Russian passports the Crimean residents are receiving from Russia are the internal passports, and they are not meant to be used for international travel. In order to be able to travel abroad, residents of Russia (or Ukraine) need to be using the "foreign travel passports." And at the moment Russia does not, yet, issue the foreign travel Russian passports to the Crimean residents. Or at least I have not heard of any such instances.

So basically, if, hypothetically, your wife receives the Russian internal/national passport - she will not be able to travel with it internationally. For her trip to USA she will need to receive a "foreign travel Russian passport". And it's not clear when and whether or how soon she will be able to obtain it. And until then - her options are either go to USA ASAP with her Ukrainian passport, or be stuck in Crimea with the Russian passport.



Here is a description of the procedure of obtaining a "foreign travel passport" for Russian citizens in Russia:
http://www.fms.gov.ru/government_services/passport/

[Andrew Dorner]

The reason why no alert was ever initiated on the military bases in Crimea was because the Ukrainian military command gave clear orders to all military personnel in Crimea "do not engage in ANY conflict with ANYONE. But defend the bases & property." They were explicitly forbidden to use any weapons or to harm or detain any of the attackers.
The logic behind such orders was that if any military conflict, shooting, etc. start in Crimea - this will give Russia the reason to bring in more troops to Crimea "to stabilize the situation" - just like it did in Georgia. So Ukrainian military command wanted to avoid giving such reason to Russia at practically any cost. It did, however, and unfortunately, demoralized the Ukrainian marines and soldiers greatly, because they felt they were given an impossible mission with unclear end date and outcome: "to defend the base at any cost but do not engage into the conflict and do not use any weapon" whereas Russian military and pro-Russian activists (which in some cases were Russian citizens and veterans of the Chechen wars  - were armed with AKs and were shooting into the air, threatening the Ukrainian military that next thing they are going to shoot them with the AKs.

Or perhaps its just as simple as the Ukrainian Military forces in Crimea would rather side with Russia.

They did get over 95% of the vote - with a turnout of over 88% - that means that even the Tatars voted for Russia. Which is understandable as Russia protects its minorities (unlike Ukraine who's calling for Ethnic cleansing). And when I say protects its minorities, I'm speaking current Russia, not Stalin times.

[Ade]

I'm really quite surprised (and a bit disgusted) by all of the Wayne bashing going on. To call someone or his family a liar is really a bit too much in my opinion.

I haven't read every post related to Wayne so I can't comment on all the bashing. However, you should go and track down all of Wayne's history before you're too harsh on those passing judgement  - besides the fact that his past FSUW marriage was a total disaster, literally from day one, and a shining example of how to be involved in an International Marriage Train Wreck^tm, his current wife claims, among other things, to have recently been involved in a plane crash that appears to have never happened and was using it as an excuse due to hospitalization to be out of contact for a week or more. Credulity can only be stretched so far you know....

[die_cast]

That people want to have better life doesn't make them greedy, it's doesn't make greedy or stupid nor Crimeans (who want to be a part of Russia), nor Ukrainians (who want to be a part of EU).

Are you planning to spend your vacation in Crimea this summer? Did you spend it there the last summer?
The truth is that there are no reasons for increase of Russian tourism into Crimea this year. Russians never needed visas to enter Crimea/Ukraine. Also, since prices were lower in Ukraine - Crimea was more attractive to them than it will be now.

My child goes to school first time this year, so no, I'll not spend my vacation in Crimea this summer. My several last vacations I spent quite close to Crimea, but in Russia, I didn't go to Crimea because it was another country anyway and I didn't feel myself safe to go there alone with a child. Same reason why I didn't go to Abkhazia. It has nothing to do with a visa. As for prices - our main expenses are tickets, so Crimea was not cheaper for us. If there will be a subsidy as they want to do and tickets from Moscow will be cheap or we even will have direct flights, that definitely makes Crimea much more attractive for me, not to mention it's now Russian so I feel myself kind of obliged to spend my vacation there and I want my child to see Crimea, because it's that place where I spent a month every summer when I was a child.

Crimean Tatars always openly opposed being annexed to Russia, and are going to have their own referendum soon, where they are going to vote for being Ukrainian autonomy. Let's see how Putin will react to that.

If Tatars want - they can have a referendum, if they want to be a part of Ukraine, which doesn't respect rights of minorities - why not? It's their choice. Some people prefer to live in the past, that's the only reason why tatars have an hysteria now.

[die_cast]

Crimeans already don't pay any attention on all this stuff that is heard on all the fora

Yes, I noticed it already, people just don't respond anymore to those who can't stop blaming them (both Ukrainians and Russians).

[Wayne]

Looking at the photo that Andrew posted, this was the same man that my wife and I talked to when she had a large portfolio containing her pastel paintings that she wanted to bring in the cabin instead of checked baggage. We paid considerable money, and got permission to do this.
 
However, when my wife when through security, they sent her back to LOT. I was there, talked to the manager again, and finally he walked her through the security.
 
This is all very stressful to my wife!

[mies]

Or perhaps its just as simple as the Ukrainian Military forces in Crimea would rather side with Russia.

They did get over 95% of the vote - with a turnout of over 88% - that means that even the Tatars voted for Russia. Which is understandable as Russia protects its minorities (unlike Ukraine who's calling for Ethnic cleansing). And when I say protects its minorities, I'm speaking current Russia, not Stalin times.

Or that means that the referendum results were rigged.

How exactly Russia protects the Ukrainian minorities in Russia? How many are there Ukrainian schools in Russia? I can tell you. None.

How many are there Russian schools in the Ukrainian Crimea? Out of roughly 750 schools, roughly 50-60% are Russian, about 10% - Ukrainian.

Where do you get the BS about ethnic cleansing?

[mies]

That people want to have better life doesn't make them greedy, it's doesn't make greedy or stupid nor Crimeans (who want to be a part of Russia), nor Ukrainians (who want to be a part of EU).My child goes to school first time this year, so no, I'll not spend my vacation in Crimea this summer. My several last vacations I spent quite close to Crimea, but in Russia, I didn't go to Crimea because it was another country anyway and I didn't feel myself safe to go there alone with a child. Same reason why I didn't go to Abkhazia. It has nothing to do with a visa. As for prices - our main expenses are tickets, so Crimea was not cheaper for us. If there will be a subsidy as they want to do and tickets from Moscow will be cheap or we even will have direct flights, that definitely makes Crimea much more attractive for me, not to mention it's now Russian so I feel myself kind of obliged to spend my vacation there and I want my child to see Crimea, because it's that place where I spent a month every summer when I was a child.If Tatars want - they can have a referendum, if they want to be a part of Ukraine, which doesn't respect rights of minorities - why not? It's their choice. Some people prefer to live in the past, that's the only reason why tatars have an hysteria now.

Exactly. What was needed to be proven. That you did not come to Crimea and will not come. And the Ukrainians who used to go there - are not going to come there now anymore. So the residents of Crimea will lose their regular income from regular tourists/customer base.

As for subsidies to give discount for tickets to Crimea, where will these subsidies come from? You do know that the Crimean economy is subsidized over 50%, don't you? Some say that it is 70% subsidized. You do know that out of 2.5 mln population, only 0.5 mln work in Crimea, don't you? I can tell you where these subsidies will come from: from your pocket.

Comparing Crimea to Abkhazia is a joke. Well, maybe not anymore, but until recently - almost certainly it was. Crimea was a safe, relaxed and happy place, up until Russia put it's dirty hands onto it.