Somebody explain this to me

[jone]

I don't remember we were friends. If a person doesn't spit in your face during a meeting, it doesn't mean he is your friend. Strange u don't know that in ur age 
And I don't hate all of you of course. Hate sounds too loud for that.

Ah, how soon you forget.  Too bad for you.  I will not openly discuss my disillusion of us at one time being friends.  Why bother?  I welcomed you on this forum as a kindred soul.  Track back only three weeks ago on my postings.

As to hate?  I had the feeling you didn't hate us, myself especially.  But as for me feeling kindly to you, well, I think I am not the first from whom you have dispelled that notion.

One can disagree with another and still treat them with respect and not a bunch of attitude.  I would suggest that for you going forward, but, at your age, you have already established your method for dealing with people.

I respectfully disagree with almost everything you say about Russia's political situation.  Moreover, your callous comments about Ukraine breaking away from the Mother's Milk of Russia is out of hand.  People in Ukraine are gearing for invasion.  They are mobilizing into units to fight Russians.  This is only occurring because your country continues to lie about its intentions.  Why do you think they hate Russia?  Because you are making them hate you.

"There are no Russian Troops in Crimea"  - V.V. Putin 2014 

When someone lies and deceives, the only safe course of action is never again to take them at their word. 

[JayH]

More on Ukrainian Military capture on he Crimea

"3.5 days I was kept in solitary confinement. First day me constantly talking unidentified Russian military - trying to convince the military oath to betray the people of Ukraine to go for service in the Russian army," - quoted Colonel Butusov. "Then there was a psychological pressure - not allowed to sleep, knocking on the doors of examples. Feeling good mood combat. What You Do Next? First, take a shower, then I will decide. Glory to Ukraine!" - Gave the word Mamchur journalist.
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/politika/mamchur-rozpoviv-yak-rosiyski-agresori-zmushuvali-yogo-zraditi-ukrayinu-342099.html
http://tsn.ua/politika/mamchur-rozpoviv-yak-rosiyski-agresori-zmushuvali-yogo-zraditi-ukrayinu-342099.html

[missAmeno]

[GQBlues]

...
"There are no Russian Troops in Crimea"  - V.V. Putin 2014 

When someone lies and deceives, the only safe course of action is never again to take them at their word.

Hhhmmmm...






Lyndon Johnson 1964:


"if you like your plan, you can keep your plan. Period." - Barrack Hussein Obama 2009

“We have been very clear to the Assad regime, but also to other players on the ground, that a red line for us is we start seeing a whole bunch of chemical weapons moving around or being utilized.  That would change my calculus.  That would change my equation.” - Barrack Hussein Obama 2012

"I didn't set a red line. The world set a red line" - Barrack Hussein Obama - September 2013

"The attack on our embassy in Benghazi was a result of a video...." - Barrack Hussein Obama 2012

[whynotme]

Ó÷àñòíèêè ìàéäàíà, áóäó÷è íåäîâîëüíûìè ïîñëåäñòâèÿìè ìàéäàíà, âûøëè íà ìàéäàí. Ëèäåðû ìàéäàíà âûñòóïèëè ïðîòèâ ìàéäàíà è íåìåäëåííî àðåñòîâàëè íåñêîëüêî ó÷àñòíèêîâ ìàéäàíà çà îðãàíèçàöèþ ìàéäàíà. Îäíàêî âñêîðå âñå ó÷àñòíèêè ìàéäàíà ïðîòèâ ìàéäàíà áûëè îòïóùåíû çà çàñëóãè íà ìàéäàíå.

Maidan participants being unhappy with consequences of Maidan, went to Maidan. Maidan Leaders opposed Maidan and immediately arrested several members for organizing Maidan. Soon, however, all participants against Maidan were released on Maidan Merit.

 

[GQBlues]

Here's another good one...

"Now, I have to go back to work on my State of the Union speech. And I worked on it until pretty late last night. But I want to say one thing to the American people. I want you to listen to me. I'm going to say this again: I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Miss Lewinsky. I never told anybody to lie, not a single time; never. These allegations are false. And I need to go back to work for the American people. Thank you."

- William Jefferson Clinton 1998


Tidbit of information: Total *estimated* deaths as a result of the US' participation in the Vietnam War based solely on a 'lie'...in excess of 3,000,000 people. Here's some doozy things about that war...

"
18.2 million gallons of Agent Orange (Dioxin) was sprayed by the U.S. military over more than 10% of Southern Vietnam,^[22] as part of the U.S. herbicidal warfare program, Operation Ranch Hand, during the Vietnam War from 1961 to 1971. Vietnam's government claimed that 400,000 people were killed or maimed as a result of after effects, and that 500,000 children were born with birth defects.^[23]

German historian Bernd Greiner mentions the following war crimes reported, and/or investigated by the Peers Commission and the Vietnam War Crimes Working Group, among other sources:^[24]

 - Seven massacres officially confirmed by the American side. My Lai (4) and My Khe (4) claimed the largest number of victims with 420 and 90 respectively, and in five other places altogether about 100 civilians were executed.

 - Two further massacres were reported by soldiers who had taken part in them, one north of Duc Pho in Quang Ngai Province in the summer of 1968 (14 victims), another in Binh Dinh province on 20 July 1969 (25 victims).

 - Tiger Force, a special operations force, murdered hundreds, possibly over a thousand, civilians.

 - In the course of large-scale operations an unknown number of non-combatants were killed either accidentally or deliberately – with some estimating more than 5,000 allegedly died in the course of Operation Speedy Express. Excluding deaths from artillery and air attacks, the total number of victims may have reached tens of thousands during the entire war.

 - According to the 'Information Bureau of the Provisional Revolutionary Government of South Vietnam' (PRG), between April 1968 and the end of 1970 American ground troops killed about 6,500 civilians in the course of twenty-one operations either on their own or alongside their allies. Three of the massacres reported on the American side were not mentioned on the PRG list.

Nick Turse, in his 2013 book, Kill Anything that Moves, argues that a relentless drive toward higher body counts, a widespread use of free-fire zones, rules of engagement where civilians who ran from soldiers or helicopters could be viewed as Viet Cong, and a widespread disdain for Vietnamese civilians led to massive civilian casualties and endemic war crimes inflicted by U.S. troops.^[25] One example cited by Turse is Operation Speedy Express, an operation by the 9th Infantry Division, which was described by John Paul Vann as, in effect, "many My Lais"...

Air force captain, Brian Wilson, who carried out bomb-damage assessments in free-fire zones throughout the delta, saw the results firsthand. "It was the epitome of immorality…One of the times I counted bodies after an air strike—which always ended with two napalm bombs which would just fry everything that was left—I counted sixty-two bodies. In my report I described them as so many women between fifteen and twenty-five and so many children—usually in their mothers' arms or very close to them—and so many old people." When he later read the official tally of dead, he found that it listed them as 130 VC killed...

[Strider]

To begin with, you have presented a false dilemma.  Much of Western Ukraine was part of interbellum Poland, which, even in its poor Eastern borderlands, was more prosperous than those on the Soviet side of the border.   People in the workers paradise not sent to the gulags frequently were eating their dead children to survive forced collectivization.  Even after the Nazi-Soviet partition of the Second Polish Republic the Polish underground was very active in resistance to both.  The OUN allied themselves with the Nazis against all others.  They did this despite the fact that Hitler had published his desire for “Lebensraum ” in Mien Kampf, and wanted to move all the Slavic peoples beyond the Urals.  Unfortunately, many Western Ukrainians were poorly educated farmers, and had a long history of illiteracy, and were easily manipulated by both Hitler and Stalin. 
 
The historical fact is that the OUN engaged in massacres of innocent women in children, chiefly people they labeled “Poles” even though they had been intermarried with the “Ukrainians” for about 600 years.  There are accounts of the OUN forcing the “Ukrainian” half of an “intermarried” couple to kill his or her spouse under threat of the execution of their children.  So with the Nazis wanting to cleanse the kraina of its ethnic Slavs, the OUN were eager to assist the Nazis in this task if people were insufficiently pure enough Ukrainians.  Remember, that before the Nazi-Soviet war to extinguish Poland,and Polish culture, Western Ukraine was far more Polish than it has become in its aftermath.  There was another possibility for Western Ukraine, and Stalin feared the Poles greatly.  Katyn clearly proved that as did the forced removal of Poles, and Ukrainian speaking Roman Catholics, whom the NKVD declared to be Poles.  The OUN has been idolized by some modern Ukrainian nationalists, but its actual level support before the war is disputed, especially considering how ethnically mixed Eastern Poland was before the war.

The thing is and always has been  that the western Ukraine of the world war saw the grind of Stalin that they didn't want and the yet unknown Third Reich that [couldn't be any worse?]..or so they thought.
That same mindset still exists today and they saw Vic Yanukovych as just another Russian puppet...which is correct. I believe the West has hung Ukraine out to dry.

There is no evidence that Adolf Hitler himself took part in ethnic cleansing either.  He just presided over the largest pogrom in world history, and for that history hold him accountable notwithstanding the fact that he was 25% Jewish.  Bandera was a convicted terrorist/anarchist in Poland for his leadership in an organization which was killing police, and civilians, particularly moderate ethnic Ukrainian leaders and a leading Polish proponent of compromise with ethnic Ukrainians.   Jews, Poles, Russians, any many Ukrainians consider him a war criminal who in fact took asylum in West Germany after the war.  Only Ukrainian nationalists repeat the sobriquet that Bandera himself had not been guilty of conspiracy to commit crimes against humanity as the head of OUN-B because his underlings carried out the specific acts.

Someone who knows more about Ukrainian history that I do asked me to correct factual inaccuracy in my message, pointing out that there is no evidence that Bandera himself took part in ethnic cleansing. As at the time the organization he (used to I guess) lead carried on the Volhyn massacre he was in concentration camp.

Actually it was the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth that occupied Moscow in the 1600's.  (Poland, which included Ukraine, and Lithuania which included modern Belarus.  The Poles later fought for Napoleon.  Some consider that Napoleon's invasion of Russia went poorly because he failed to gather enough support from the Polish-Lithuanian aristocracy and General Kosciusko.

Few people educated by the communists have any idea what the history of the region actually was.

As for the rape of Poland, Russia is into it about five times.  The Poles only invaded Russia once, in the early 1600s.  Each time Russia came across the border,  tens of thousands of Poles died.  Get your history correct, my dear.  The reason I brought up the Polish officers massacre was to offset your claims of Nationalism by Ukraine. 
...
A funny story:  I was in Suzdal.  We had a gal assigned to me to go over the local history.  She was stating how rotten the Poles were because they advanced as far as Suzdal in their conquest stated above.  I laughed and she stopped me and inquired why I was laughing.  I giver her a historical account of how many times Russia had invaded Poland and she turned bright red. 

[XMan]

From a historical perspective, I think I've seen just about everything mentioned except when the oblasts of Lviv, Ivano-Frankivsk, Ternopil, and most of Chernivtsi were ruled by the Austro-Hungarian empire. 

Concerning recent events, one can argue indefinitely as to what the far left or far right influences are in Ukraine.  Extremists get headlines, as do large-scale sniper attacks. 

If the west was determined to see Ukraine join the EU or NATO, they certainly didn't prepare for possible outcomes very well.  Frankly, before the recent events occurred I doubt our President could have pointed out Ukraine on a map, so I seriously doubt U.S. influence, and I don't think the EU much cared one way or another, especially if Ukraine was going to become another PIGS (Portugal, Italy, Greece, Spain) drain.

What is clear is this:

1) Putin has painted all of Western Ukraine as Nazi / Nationalists.  Clearly, that' ridiculous. 

2) People in Western Ukraine in particular fear a return of the former Soviet Union.  Understandable, given the history everyone has been discussing (though I didn't see reference to Stalin starving millions of Ukrainians to death in 1933-34). 

3) The U.S., Britain, and Russia agreed to maintain the territorial integrity of Ukraine, and in turn, Ukraine gave up their nuclear weapons.  Putin broke that agreement.  That is irrefutable. 
I doubt it would have happened if Ukraine was still a nuclear country, but I cannot claim that as fact.  It is simply conjecture.  But the breaking of the agreement is not.  And the U.S. and Britain have done little if anything as guarantors either.  So I believe they broke the agreement as well by default.

4) Putin claimed there were no Russian troops in Crimea.  Clearly a lie.  He then annexed it.  Clearly Ukrainians and others wonder who is next.  After all, he lied about that, why not a number of other things.  I can see why Estonia and Poland are worried.  After all, look at the history. 

5) Putin wants to topple Ukraine economically, then invade to "protect" Russian citizens.  I don't believe anyone can refute that given recent Gazprom events, and a number of statements by Putin.

6) The "sanctions" are laughable, and the response timid.  Some financial freezes on a handful of Russians?  300 troops to Poland?  A few planes? 

7) No one in the west, nor anyone in former Soviet but currently self-governing states, believes anything that Putin says anymore.  It's simply not possible.  So the only way to effectively plan is to expect the worst.  Assurances by Putin mean no more than assurances by Hitler in 1938.  Any country interested in continuing to be self-governing needs to rethink their defense spending since Russia is planning a 44% increase over the next 5 years.  It would be unwise to think "Putin will be satisfied with Crimea."  This is an ex-KGB agent who has had journalists beaten and killed, dissenters imprisoned, and radioactively poisoned an outspoken critic with polonium. 

I am not a Reagan fan. But during his presidency he warned western Europe about becoming dependent upon energy from Russia.  Someone should have paid some attention.  He has funded the military resurgence through selling fossil fuels.  Just has China has funded their military through selling their cheap goods to the U.S. and throughout the world.  I cannot understand why this is a surprise.  I find Republican lack of concern about this particularly surprising, given the god-like status they attribute to Reagan.  It seems most people forget that a majority of our jobs have shifted to the largest communist dictatorship (one that got smart and made capitalism part of their platform while avoiding democracy).  But I digress.

9) I've seen a lot of "well, the west started it, it was a freely elected government in Ukraine," arguments here and elsewhere.  A relatively small number of protesters, mostly college students, protested against the dumping of the EU agreement and signing one with Russia.  They got the living hell beaten out of them by riot police.  That is when things spun out of control, because that resulted in thousands of protesters in the street and people being out for blood.  I just don't see that as the west starting something.  Regardless, all bets were off after that. 

Not that the U.S. isn't guilty of all kinds of garbage.  Making stuff up out of thin air as an excuse to invade Iraq is one of many.  Lie enough times about WMD's, about ties to 9/11, etc., and people believe it eventually.  That was some of the most effective propaganda ever.  Starting an impossible to win war in Afghanistan was another, legitimate or not (and I think going after the Taliban and Al Q was legitimate).  But seriously, did no one see what happened to the Soviet Union from 1980-1988 in Afghanistan?  Hells bells, that was only 14 years prior.  Talk about long-term loss of short-term memory.  The only way to win in that scenario is exterminate the entire population.  Not exactly a morally correct path.

But that isn't the point. 

The point is Putin, what he has done, what he has lied about, and the fact that there is no effective way to negotiate with someone who won't stick to an agreement.  Any agreement would not be worth the paper it's written on, as is clearly the case with "guaranteeing" the integrity of Ukraine's borders.

In the end, sending NATO forces for "training and support" or "advising" to NATO states most at risk (Estonia, Lithuania, Poland, etc.) and then casually leaving them there is a good start, as is putting the missile shield installation in Poland (which Putin greatly fears), as is NATO member states spending a minimum of 2% of GDP on defense (of which I believe Estonia is one of the few to do so, even though it is supposedly a requirement of NATO membership), etc., is the only logical way to deal with this scenario.  I've seen many react in the fashion that "we don't want to make Putin mad," as if NATO would be responsible for escalating a situation post invasion and annexation of Crimea.  It's like saying that when a bully hits you, don't fight back, you'll make him angry.  Nonsensical.

I have nothing against Russian people.  I met a number, many I liked, some I was neutral to, some I did not like.  It's rarely the people that are the issue.  It's the leaders / government. 

[jone]

Yeah! What he said!

And Obama today said he's gonna put sanctions on ..... 20..... no ........ 30..... no, wait, 55 Russians for their irresponsibility!

[Maxx2]

Here's another good one...

"Now, I have to go back to work on my State of the Union speech. And I worked on it until pretty late last night. But I want to say one thing to the American people. I want you to listen to me. I'm going to say this again: I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Miss Lewinsky. I never told anybody to lie, not a single time; never. These allegations are false. And I need to go back to work for the American people. Thank you."

- William Jefferson Clinton 1998

There you go again defaming one of our greatest presidents!

[Maxx2]

From a historical perspective,   

If the west was determined to see Ukraine join the EU or NATO, they certainly didn't prepare for possible outcomes very well.  Frankly, before the recent events occurred I doubt our President could have pointed out Ukraine on a map, so I seriously doubt U.S. influence, and I don't think the EU much cared one way or another, especially if Ukraine was going to become another PIGS (Portugal, Italy, Greece, Spain) drain.



In the end, sending NATO forces for "training and support" or "advising" to NATO states most at risk (Estonia, Lithuania, Poland, etc.) and then casually leaving them there is a good start, as is putting the missile shield installation in Poland (which Putin greatly fears), as is NATO member states spending a minimum of 2% of GDP on defense (of which I believe Estonia is one of the few to do so, even though it is supposedly a requirement of NATO membership), etc., is the only logical way to deal with this scenario.  I've seen many react in the fashion that "we don't want to make Putin mad," as if NATO would be responsible for escalating a situation post invasion and annexation of Crimea.  It's like saying that when a bully hits you, don't fight back, you'll make him angry.  Nonsensical.

I have nothing against Russian people.  I met a number, many I liked, some I was neutral to, some I did not like.  It's rarely the people that are the issue.  It's the leaders / government.

Historian Patrick Buchanon says this to that

State's Victoria Nuland says we invested $5 billion in re-orienting Ukraine away from Russia. How would we respond if we awoke — as Putin did in February — to learn a pro-American government in Mexico City had been overthrown by street mobs financed by Beijing, a pro-China regime installed, and this unelected Mexican regime wanted out of NAFTA in favor of joining an economic union and military alliance with China?
A U.S. president who landed Marines in Veracruz, as Wilson did in 1914, and sent a 21st-century General "Black Jack" Pershing with an army across the border, would be over 70 percent in the polls, as Putin is today.
And if he seized Baja, as Putin seized Crimea, it would be a cakewalk to a second term.

Regime Change in Kiev
Victoria Nuland Admits: US Has Invested $5 Billion In The Development of Ukrainian, "Democratic Institutions"

We don't know who actually tapped and leaked Nuland's private call to the US ambassador in Kiev, Geoffrey Pyatt. It could have been the Ukrainian or Russian secret services, but, regardless, it was an inspired move to reveal it. For the disclosure, which has been posted on the internet, lays bare the subversive meddling agenda of Washington in Ukrainian internal affairs. Up to now, the Americans have been piously pretending that their involvement is one of a bystander supporting democracy from afar.

But, thanks to the Nuland's foul-mouthed indiscretion, the truth is out. Washington, from her own admission, is acting like an agent provocateur in Ukraine's political turmoil. That is an illegal breach of international rules of sovereignty. Nuland finishes her phone call like a gangster ordering a hit on a rival, referring to incompetent European interference in Ukraine with disdain - "F...k the EU."

What we are witnessing here is the real, ugly face of American government and its uncouth contempt for international law and norms.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article37599.htm

[jone]

Hmm, Nice Article, Maxx.

Just before the one about:   "WASHINGTON'S CLONED FEMALE WAR MONGERS". 

Ahem.

[Maxx2]

Hmm, Nice Article, Maxx.

Just before the one about:   "WASHINGTON'S CLONED FEMALE WAR MONGERS". 

Ahem.

If you sniff around I am sure you will find a news source more to your liking.

[Maxx2]

I found the taped conversation of Nuland saying "F**k the EU"





It's at the 3:01 mark.


 There is other clips with her about the  US destabilizing Ukraine.