Renovation of the RWD 10 Commandments

[Admin]

There have been a few comments to suggest that maybe it is time to review the RWD 10 Commandments to see if they need some renovation work. After all, things in the FSU change pretty quickly, so maybe several of the old reliables need to be revisited.

So . . . with that in mind, please review the latest version of the RWD 10 Commandments, here -- http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?pid=2

And please respond to this post with your suggestions for improvement, and/or your suggestion to keep them as is.

Regards,

- Dan

[BC]

Well as a first suggestion, RWD 10 Commandments seems a bit haughty for a bunch of terra-bound folks usually up to our ankles in stinky stuff.  I personally like 'Tablets' better.  I think someone mentioned Leslie (?) coined or came up with the the Tablets of Stone idea so hope he can give a little input.

How about RWD Tablet(s) of Wisdom? (TOW if you like acronyms..)

BYHATTOW (Beat Your Head Against The Tablets Of Wisdom) could be wiki'd LOL

[catzenmouse]

I'll take them in order with comments:

1. Never send money to someone you have never met.
- Agree as is.

2. Always have a back-up plan
- Agree as is.

3. Work to eliminate any agency from your communications.
- Agree with stipulations: Some agencies can help you out if they know the girls and if they are honest and up front. Not many fall into this category but the ones who do could save you a lifetime of pain and a lot of money.

4. Always get the lady's home address and home phone number as early as possible.
- Agree as is.

5. Verify the ladies you are writing to are real.
- Agree as is.

6. Do not fall in love with photos!!
- Agree as is. (... but have you seen some of Jack's photos?...)

7. Always be yourself. Show the ladies the real you. Be truthful. Use current photos.
- Agree as is.

8. Do not rush into this! Take your time and be methodical, not impulsive, about this process.
- Agree as is.

9. Treat international dating the same as dating someone from your home country. The biggest difference is the cost (travel, phone. etc). This is an expensive process. Don't believe anyone that tells you otherwise.
- Agree as is.

10. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A MAIL-ORDER BRIDE! They do not exist.
- If you get a big enough box and enough stamps you can mail anything.... (Agree as is.)

[Turboguy]

I need to spend some more time thinking about this but I think there could be a few additions and I think that I don't totally agree with number 1. 

I think there are times that it is ok to send money to someone you have never met.  I am thinking in terms of lets say you want to go to Kiev and have a gal from Odessa meet you there.  I have sent them money to travel and arranged a hotel for them.  I have done this a half dozen times and have never had one not show up.  It sure saves me a lot of time and money and I wish I had started doing it long before.   Usually I prefer to be the one who brings up the subject, and not I am not going to meet them in Paris or Egypt for a first meeting

I think 8 could use a little work.  I agree to take your time and be methodical but I think something could be added about the gals you write may not have the same chemistry when you meet them and it is better to try and not write forever and to try to meet sooner.   Sometimes if you write forever, someone else won't and you will be left with a lot of empty e-mails. 

[Shadow]

My comments:

1. Never send money to someone you have never met.
Unless it is a business deal with good refund policy

2. Always have a back-up plan
Is tourism a back-up plan ?
I always wonder about the validity of a back-up plan. It can help not to get your feelings mixed-up, but sometimes it seems back-up plans are for men who are desparate to get engaged no matter what.

3. Work to eliminate any agency from your communications.
I would change this in 'Work to establish direct communications'. Communicating direct is the best way, and no other party be it agency or translator can replace this.

4. Always get the lady's home address and home phone number as early as possible.
Leave out the 'home'.

5. Verify the ladies you are writing to are real.
Agree, but the order seems a bit odd.

6. Do not fall in love with photos!!
I would add... or telephone conversations. 'Do not fall in love until you have met in person' would be best in my opinion

7. Always be yourself. Show the ladies the real you. Be truthful. Use current photos.
Agree (this can be difficult if you have multiple personalities though )

8. Do not rush into this! Take your time and be methodical, not impulsive, about this process.
Agree

9. Treat international dating the same as dating someone from your home country. The biggest difference is the cost (travel, phone. etc). This is an expensive process. Don't believe anyone that tells you otherwise.
Agree

10. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A MAIL-ORDER BRIDE! They do not exist.
Disagree...although I believe they are extinct by now so I will allow the text to remain.

[Shadow]

I need to spend some more time thinking about this but I think there could be a few additions and I think that I don't totally agree with number 1. 

I think 8 could use a little work.  I agree to take your time and be methodical but I think something could be added about the gals you write may not have the same chemistry when you meet them and it is better to try and not write forever and to try to meet sooner.   Sometimes if you write forever, someone else won't and you will be left with a lot of empty e-mails. 

Turbo, remembr that these are general guidelines. To make them work for new people they should not leave room for doubt.
Come to think of it, 8 could use the addtition...'but do not take forever'

[BC]

I would add:

11. Being able to communicate is a cornerstone of any relatioship.

[Admin]

Well as a first suggestion, RWD 10 Commandments seems a bit haughty for a bunch of terra-bound folks usually up to our ankles in stinky stuff.  I personally like 'Tablets' better.  I think someone mentioned Leslie (?) coined or came up with the the Tablets of Stone idea so hope he can give a little input.

How about RWD Tablet(s) of Wisdom? (TOW if you like acronyms..)

BYHATTOW (Beat Your Head Against The Tablets Of Wisdom) could be wiki'd LOL

Yeah - in the first edition (way back TWO boards ago), I tried to make a small joke about it by calling it the "10 Commandments (or at least, VERY strong suggestions)" - but since title real estate is now at something of a premium, I shortened it.

Am willing to consider ANY catchy and descriptive titles - EXCEPT that I don't want to parrot what was developed for another board. That is rightly their property, and while ours may look VERY similar - it needs to be OURS.

- Dan

[catzenmouse]

Turbo,

 I thought about that one but as Shadow said these are for people who are new to this so they need some stricter rules until they get their feet wet.

Shadow,

 Re: #2: To me (and maybe this could be incorporated into the rule) even though you go with the intention of meeting one or many ladies that you have been writing to you have to also have the thought in your mind that this is a vacation for you and no matter how it turns out you should enjoy the place and people for what they are and use it as an opportunity to learn more about them. And if you meet a couple that you have been writing to and they do now work out then a back-up plan to meet a few more for a casual date or good dinner company is a good way to go.

BC,

 That could be worked into #8 rather effectively I believe. Good point.

Ken

[BC]

BC,

 That could be worked into #8 rather effectively I believe. Good point.

Ken

With Shadows version above would work well with his nr3

[catzenmouse]

With Shadows version above would work well with his nr3

Quite right BC and probably a better version of the rule.

[BC]

8. Do not rush into this! Take your time and be methodical, not impulsive, about this process.

Do not be impulsive, compulsive or rush into this! Be methodical and plan ahead. This process takes lots of time.

[jb]

Recently RWG attempted to improve on the "Tablets of Stone", even held a contest of sorts, and then never acted on the idea.  The following is what I had written, freely interjecting Leslie's work with my own.  Since it was not used over there, I feel no remorse in presenting it here for the board to peruse. 

Newbie Rules To Live By

1.) Thou shall not fall in love with a photograph and a few e-mails. This is the most commonly made Newbie mistake.
2.) Thou shall not become a Keyboard Romero. If you do not have the intentions and the wherewithal to travel and meet with the ladies you are writing to; you should not have written the first letter.
3.) Thou shall never send money to anyone you have not met. You cannot be scammed if you don't open your wallet.
4.) Thou shall always remember that until you meet face-to-face, she is just a Pen-Pal. Keep your options open to meet with other ladies if the chemistry is not good.
5.) Thou shall not trust your fate entirely to the honesty of agencies or interpreters. These people have their own agendas, which may or may not be in your best interests.
6.) Thou shall not place your profile advertisements on free dating sites. Be very leery of anyone who initiates contact with you from a harvested e-mail account. Keep in mind the adage; If it seems too good to be true, it probably is.
7.) Thou shall always trust, but at the same time, verify.
8.) Thou shall not become emotionally invested in e-mails. Be prepared to travel to meet with women before even thinking about uttering the L word.
9.) Thou shall always remember the Red Flag rule. If you find out, or realize, someone is lying to you, drop her immediately and move on.
10) Thou shall always be prepared to put thy money where thy mouth is, a promise made is to be a promise kept.

[Leslie]

Dan,

When I started the original "Tablets of Stone" thread back in 2002 on RWG I never meant them to be interpreted as laws or commandments.  They were a set of basic principles on how to approach this endeavour sensibly.  I don't like the idea of presenting these ideas on there own as rules (This was something Spencer did)  They need to be supported by some examples.

For example take your first commandment - Never send money to someone you have never met.

This is good general advice.  If your pen pal asks you for $2000 to pay for a visa and tickets to the USA you can be 99% certain you are being scammed.  If you never send money you can never be scammed.  However I sent money to women I had never met to cover travel costs.  For example $100 expenses to travel to Kiev to meet me.  I know a lot of other experienced guys who did the same thing.  I was lucky - I never had a "no show" - but what the hell, this is small change!  I won't be crying over it. 

This is why I don't like these ideas set down as RULES.  It is too "evangelical"  My way is the only way.  Disagreement is heresy!  In reality these ideas outline a safe sensible approach but there are many ways of playing this game.

Take rule 2.  Always have a back up plan.

If you are planning a trip with an agency you don't need a back up plan.  You will be surrounded by minders.

If you are visiting many women then your approach has a built in back up plan.  Woman A is a harridan.  You move to woman B.

A back up plan is only really essential for guys who visit just one woman. (WOVO).  Often these guys let their pen pal make all the arrangements and travel to non tourist destinations.  For them just exiting the situation can be very difficult.  I have organized the rescue of a couple of guys in this situation.  Literally I have organized someone to meet them and put them on a train to Kiev and a downtown flat rental.  WOVO types don't like to have back up women, so for them spending the rest of their vacation as a tourist is the most agreeable option

I will try to produce the same kind of supporting argument for each of these ideas.  Maybe this evening if Tamara decides to sleep!

[Admin]

I will try to produce the same kind of supporting argument for each of these ideas.  Maybe this evening if Tamara decides to sleep!

Thanks Les - I'll look forward to it.

- Dan

[BC]

I kinda agree with Leslie.

Maybe a short preface like:

There are no guarantees in this endeavor. The general guidelines below can help increase your chances of success by minimizing emotional and material risks:

[Bruce]

One thing about the ten "commandments" that I never liked is that they assume a man is going to go to an agency (free or paid) / agencies websites; buy addresses / become a member - write ladies, get on a plane and meet one or more ladies. ¦nbsp;Right now at least half of the commandments make these assumptions. ¦nbsp;Perhaps the ten commandments should be more like:

1. ¦nbsp;Pick a part of the FSU that you think would enjoy travelling to that has a guide or reputable agency that could help you meet women. ¦nbsp;
 Â¦nbsp; 1A - If you choose a marriage agency to work with discuss a prospective schedule prior to travelling.
 Â¦nbsp; 1B - Make the agency work for you ie. trust but verify their motives.
2. ¦nbsp;Learn as much language and culture as you can prior to travelling to the FSU.
3. ¦nbsp;Know yourself, why you want to travel to the FSU to also meet women, ¦nbsp;and know what qualities you are looking for in a wife prior to travelling to the FSU.
4. ¦nbsp;Make sure a woman is mature enough to handle international dating.
5. ¦nbsp;Do your best to communicate without a third party as soon as possible.
6. ¦nbsp;Establish quality communications once your trip is over and learn as much as possible about your girl / girls once in the USA.
7. ¦nbsp;Return to you girl / girls when you feel confident that it is worth your while.
8. ¦nbsp;Once you think you found the one, make sure she likes you for you.
9. ¦nbsp;Make sure you meet and approve of and approve the girls family and if possible friends.
10. ¦nbsp;Be prepared to invest alot of time, money and effort in the process.

[BC]

Bruce,

I really like nr3.. along the lines of 'Examine your motives'..

[Bruce]

I started an edit, then decided to just leave the above post. 

BC - glad you agree one of the above 10 is in the right direction.  Now we need to come up with nine more. If you start thinking about a top 10 things somebody should do in the International dating process, it really gets complicated and is person specific to an extent.  Perhaps we should have the top ten things not to do:

1.  Sending money to a person you have never met.
2.  Paying a fee to join Fat Yuri's virtual can't miss dating agency.
3.  Writing a letter to a virtual woman in Fat Slava's agency.
4.  Writing letters to women with no intention of ever going over.
5.  Paying top dollar to go on a tour with a disreputable agency.
6.  Flying to the FSU and acting like an "ugly American" the whole way to and from the FSU.
7.  Trying to take a "dancing girl" or "call girl" back on a K-1 visa.
8.  Proposing to the first girl who gives you time of day.
9.  Thinking you found the love of your life when in fact she is married.
10.  Attempting to buy your way into the heart of a girl in the FSU. 

[catzenmouse]

There are so many good thoughts expressed here we might need the RWD 20 Commandments along with the RWD 10 UnCommandments that Bruce listed.

Looking over these it is truly scary how much you really need to know before even considering this type of relationship and how many go into this armed with a letter opener when they really need a shotgun.

Ken

[BC]

Bruce,

I was not disagreeing with you on 9 out of 10, it's just that one really stuck out (imho) as an essential.

I think the commandments should primarily provide a general baseline for those starting out in this venture and as reference points for those already along the way that can be related to their successes and failures.

There are a lot of good ideas here.  With a little thought and clever wording I think we can get the most out of as few words as possible.

[Bruce]

BC, no disagreement here.   As, Ken mentioned, there are alot of good ideas to consider.

[Leslie]

Hi Guys,

Some great advice is being posted on this thread lets try to keep it going.  Honestly I don't think we should aim for just ten simple rules.  The experienced guys here understand the significance of these ideas.  A newcomer won't.  I doubt they will understand the reasoning behind these ideas and so will not see their significance.  I will try to post some explanation for the gallery.

For example consider Dan's third commandment - Work to eliminate any agency from your communications.

A newcomer reading this piece of wisdom will very likely think - Duh?  because most newcomers begin this quest by browsing MOB agency websites. If I tell you that this idea was first proposed by Jack - an agency owner, the response could well be double Duh!  An agency owner who advises not using an agency!!

The MOB agency business is a cesspool.  The vast majority of the agency websites are pedalling pornography.  Like all pornography businesses their primary aim is separating the punter and his money.  On the boards the people who run these sites are referred to by the slang name "Fat Yuri"  The name is apt because the punter is not writing to the model girl whose pictures he masturbates over but to a fat middle aged guy!

The primary money maker for this racket is translated e-mail.  Basically this involves a guy paying a fee ($5 is average) to send an e-mail to a "woman".  The agency translates this e-mail into Russian and sends a reply translated into English (often for another fee).  Some agencies advertise bulk buying discounts like "100 e-mails for $300".  Provided you pay up front.  The small print of of the terms of trade will nearly always state that all communication must be through the agency. Contact details will be deleted from e-mails.  After all the agency must maintain its income stream.

Some of these operations are complete scams.  You are not communicating with a real woman at all.  Most of the rest are partial scams.  There are real women on the site but the lure of money means that no paying customer is ever told a woman has no interest in him.  The scenario plays like this.  Fat 60 year old gomer writes to Nadia Smokinhotkova.  When Nadia reads Gomer's letter she tells the agency that she has no interest in the old goat.  The agency realises that Gomer will likely spend hundreds of dollars writing to "Nadia" so they reply to Gomer. Over 90% of the guys who write will never make the trip.  If Gomer is one of the 10% he will get a "Dear John" letter from Nadia just before he leaves or Nadia will be unavailable when he arrives (She is on holiday or some other bait and switch strategy)

Is it becoming clearer now why you should eliminate any agency from your communications? 

My personal advice is never do business with an agency who adopts this business strategy.  After 3 - 4 letters ask the woman for her contact details. (Most agencies charge a fee for supplying these details $20 - 30 is fine)  If these are sent contact her direct or via your own (US based) interpreter.  Any excuse or evasion on this is a huge red flag.  Send a "Dear Jane" letter and move on.

This brings us to the second issue - Communication but that is a separate topic...

[Shadow]

I think the experienced guys like Leslie can work out great information.
Just a thought is to let the commandments lead to the Wiki section where there is room for explanation and examples of the commandments.
This way we can leave the commandments short, while at the same time offering the reasoning behind them.

[catzenmouse]

Shadow,

 I really like the idea of having the "commandment" link to an explanation. That would give some real meat to the meaning for those who are new to this. The problem that I see (and there may be a way to work this out) is that a wiki is for different people to post different resources/links/etc. on the subjects. Joe writes about hotels in Kiev, Bob writes about hotels in Odessa and the content is built. If we put this in a wiki then won't there be posts added on basically arguing with the reasoning behind the commandment? If so, then it will degrade into a discussion and not the good information that it needs to be.

Ken