The Propaganda War

[tfcrew]

Russian speakers were never in any danger in Crimea or other parts of Ukraine. 

They are hassled.  This is a large part of the problem. 'Ukrainian' Ukrainians want to be disengaged from Russia...Russian Ukrainians don't. They want to retain their language and ideals.

ie.



http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/blond-beauty-patrols-eastern-ukraine-pro-russia-rebels-tensions-mount-article-1.1868831

[jone]

I would surmise that the future of the Moscow Times is in doubt.  While it is an English language publication, this type of opinion does not appear to be tolerated in the 'new' information dissemination laws.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/russians-will-suffer-in-putin-s-new-cold-war/503782.html

[Boethius]

They are hassled.  This is a large part of the problem. 'Ukrainian' Ukrainians want to be disengaged from Russia...Russian Ukrainians don't. They want to retain their language and ideals.

For two decades, this ethnic minority population has been allowed to speak their language.  They elect members to the Rada.  They can send their children to Russian language schools.  So where, exactly, is the hassle?

[southernX]

For two decades, this ethnic minority population has been allowed to speak their language.  They elect members to the Rada.  They can send their children to Russian language schools.  So where, exactly, is the hassle?

agree100%
not only that but in crimea there where more russian language schools than ukrainian

in the east of ukraine there never has been any conflict over ethnicity , language etc
that is russian propoganda bs

most people living in this area are dual linguists in russian and ukrainian

if you talk to any of them or have family there you will hear quite plainly language everday language use was never an issue

it has now possibly become one , purely by putins driving of the propoganda and disinformation in the last 8 months or so
SX

[tfcrew]

For two decades, this ethnic minority population has been allowed to speak their language.  They elect members to the Rada.  They can send their children to Russian language schools.  So where, exactly, is the hassle?

Ethnic minority?
'Allowed'? Allowed to speak......
I believe that is what I am talking about.
The Ukrainian Parliament?
Must have missed the fist fights the last couple of years.

[Boethius]

Ethnic minority?

Yup.   Ethnic Russians are less than 20% of Ukraine's population, ergo, they are a minority. 

'Allowed'? Allowed to speak..

Do you have any examples of regions of Russian being restricted from Russian schooling, being prohibited from speaking Russian, reading Russian language, accessing Russian media?  You do know that Ukrainian schools are already being closed for the new school year in Crimea, do you not? 


So, exactly how were Russians "oppressed" in Ukraine?

[tfcrew]

Crimea is mostly Russian. Been there and discussed months ago so naturally there is more Russian language schools.
It is mostly in the western side of Ukraine that refuse to use the Russian language.

[Boethius]

There are Russian language schools across Ukraine, wherever there is demand.

As for Western Ukraine, why should they be forced to use a language which is not their ethnic tongue?  Still, if you go to L'viv and speak Russian, the locals will answer in Russian.


You do know, I assume, that there were policies of Russification in Ukraine, where Ukrainian language was viewed as secondary and non important, do you not?  There were many things that were published only in Russian.

[tfcrew]

It was called The Soviet Union. Russian was the primary Language.
And let's just go full circle again.

[BillyB]

There's been talk about the RT anchor quitting on the air. In the video she is explaining why she quit. Tired of the propaganda.



http://video.foxnews.com/v/3686595391001/russian-tv-anchor-quits-while-on-air/#sp=show-clips

[Boethius]

It was called The Soviet Union. Russian was the primary Language.
And let's just go full circle again.

It was called the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.  Theoretically, each republic was equal.

Russification went far beyond use of Russian language as the primary language of the USSR.  The intent was to obliterate Ukrainian as the primary language of its native speakers.  This is why Ukrainian dissidents were jailed.  One, Ivan Dziuba, wrote a book about the official policy titled Internationalism or Russification? Many Ukrainian writers, poets, and journalists were sent to gulags for wanting to write in Ukrainian.  The last political prisoner in the USSR to die in a gulag was a Ukrainian poet, Vasyl Stus, who died on September 4, 1985, at Perm-36.

In Western Ukraine, when the Bolsheviks came, they closed all the churches.  Every school, in every village, had a Russian teacher.  There perhaps was no math teacher, or physics teacher, but even a "zadrepane selo" had a Russian teacher.  The best jobs were reserved for the "tried, tested and true" commies from Central/Eastern Ukraine, or Russia.  Singing the wrong (Ukrainian) song could get you, even in Brezhnev's time, a prison sentence of 2 years or more.  So, please don't assume that Ukrainians who, oppressed and forbidden to speak, or publish, in their language are doing something horrific in wanting to know and live their language and their culture in their country.

[Shadow]

Apart from that Ukrainian and Russian are more like dialects as completely separate languages, I wonder why people who expect the world to speak English are surprised about the dominating country of the Soviet Union trying it make it language uniform for all republics.
Standard Dutch and Flemish street language are just as different as Ukrainian and Russian, yet are officially the same language. The Limburg dialect, which is not recognized as language, is between Dutch and German, and while spoken (with local varieties) in a wide area nobody speaks of oppression.
On the other hand the Frysk is officially recognized, though once again rather close.

Language is nothing but a political means to divide instead of unite.

[Boethius]

They are dialects the way that Dutch and German are dialects to one another.

The issue is not that Russian was a uniform language for all republics.  It is that Ukrainian culture and language was deliberately suppressed.  There was an attempt to erase it, gradually, from history.

[GQBlues]

She is one #!#! cute *terrorist*. Hell, she can terrorize me anytime she wants, man IMO.

If she isn't busy shooting down planes, that is... Evil b@stard!

[tfcrew]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine#Language

Effective in August 2012, a new law on regional languages entitles any local language spoken by at least a 10% minority be declared official within that area.^[266] Russian was within weeks declared as a regional language in several southern and eastern oblasts (provinces) and cities.^[267] Russian can now be used in these cities'/oblasts' administrative office work and documents.^[268][269] On 23 February 2014, following the 2014 Ukrainian revolution, the Ukrainian Parliament voted to repeal the law on regional languages, making Ukrainian the sole state language at all levels; however, this vote was vetoed by acting President Turchynov on March 2.^[270][271]

The 'Russian can now be used in these cities'/oblasts' administrative office work and documents' part was certainly  not active when my wife sold her property and drew up real estate papers last year.
 Was originally in Russian had to be transcribed  into Ukrainian and then translated into English for tax accounting...A hassle.

[Someone changed my word hassled to oppressed earlier in the thread yesterday.]
What was the motive there?

 Anyway............Had she waited till now..I would not permit her to fly there.

A post on another forum...

Laloosh   Hello! I was born and grew up in Ukraine, but I don't consider Ukrainian as my mother tongue, Russian is my native language, and I'll explain why. Actually Ukraine can be divided into two parts: Eastern and Western. The eastern part, including Crimea speaks Russian, maybe because it is closer to Russia, I don't know, it is just how it is. And the Western part speaks only Ukrainian. Districts that are close to Poland have some kind of language mixture (Ukrainian + Polish + Chezh). That part is quite nationalistic. They don't really like Russian people. And I heard so many stories how Russians were treated badly in that part of Ukraine. In the capital of Ukraine people speak both Russian and Ukrainian.

http://polyglotclub.com/language/ukrainian/post/65

[Boethius]

So?  In what language would a real estate transaction in the U.S. occur? 


Odesa is no longer a part of the USSR.  Moscow is no longer its capital.  Ukrainian is the official language of the Ukraine.


I don't think anyone changed your post.  Were it revised, there would be a note that Anonmod edited your post.

[Muzh]

Ethnic minority?
'Allowed'? Allowed to speak......
I believe that is what I am talking about.
The Ukrainian Parliament?
Must have missed the fist fights the last couple of years.

Quick question.


In what language are the US Congress sessions held?
I bet it is NOT in Spanish.

[GQBlues]

...In what language are the US Congress sessions held?
I bet it is NOT in Spanish.

From the 'Did you know Department'...

For nearly 50 years, there was a State (don't remember which) that actually made it a 'law' establishing *American* as the official language of the State. LOL.

It was eventually amended because the schools/teachers kept teaching *English* in their classes...

 

[Muzh]

From the 'Did you know Department'...

For nearly 50 years, there was a State (don't remember which) that actually made it a 'law' establishing *American* as the official language of the State. LOL.

It was eventually amended because the schools/teachers kept teaching *English* in their classes...

 

LMFAO

[tfcrew]

So, exactly how were Russians "oppressed" in Ukraine?

OK there was the word oppressed in quotes when no one had used the word.

 

If you are going to Ukraine, learn a few phrases in Ukrainian.  If you, as a foreigner, speak Russian only, in many parts of Ukraine, you will  offend the locals.

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=9695.msg187615#msg187615


Boethius..if my wife tells me that she was hassled regarding her speaking in Russian than I will take her word for it.

I can't find anywhere that you would be qualified to know otherwise
 
 

[Boethius]

Re this -


http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=9695.msg187615#msg187615

I have been on the streets of Kyiv, where one will hear, in order, surzhik, Ukrainian, and Russian.

I have been on the streets of Vinnitsya, where one will hear, in order, surzhik and Ukrainian.

I have been on the streets of Chernivtsi where one will hear, in order, Ukrainian, surzhik and what I assume is Romanian.

I have been on the streets of L'viv, where one will hear, in order, Ukrainian and surzhik.

I have been on the streets of Ternopil, where one will hear, in order, Ukrainian and surzhik.

I have been on the streets of Ivano Frankivsk, where one will generally hear Ukrainian, and the odd Russian word thrown in.


In Kyiv and L'viv, I have seen Russian tourists, who had no issues with locals. 


In 2009, in Western Ukraine, if a foreigner used Russian phrases yes, it offended the locals.  They have become more cosmopolitan since then, in my experience.   They don't even balk at my husband's "moskal" surname.

[The Natural]

I've been to both Russia and Ukraine, yet never ever been discriminated. So I conclude these countries are safe for us pink People, haha

[Boethius]

Do you mean censorship?  Where is the censorship?

[tfcrew]

 
...in Western Ukraine

Didn't say you weren't qualified about Ukraine.

Just didn't see how you would know what had happened when my wife was there.

In western Ukraine, the younger generation was taught Ukrainian as their native language.

With those from the Soviet days, it is different.

[Boethius]

Did I ever suggest I knew what happened to your wife? 


Did I mention her at all in any of my posts?