The Russian Invasion of Ukraine-The Real Nazis

[Muzh]

Thanks Mendeleyev for providing both the link and your opinion.  I am not surprised the McCain Institute has such a viewpoint as I feel practically anything associated with John McCain is going to be too hawkish. 


It is interesting how the win/win is suddenly getting so much airtime finally.  I continue to believe that is the most likely way to see this end...or I guess they can just continue to fight it out.


Fathertime!

Nope, you were arguing that Putin never said he wanted a veto on Ukraine's EU aspirations.


See photo above.

[fathertime]

Nope, you were arguing that Putin never said he wanted a veto on Ukraine's EU aspirations.


See photo above.

Well it looks like mr dumdum STILL can't figure things out for himself!  I was asking for links, which for the information of the feeble-minded is different than taking a position on the issue.  See if you can figure that out.  Now that the links have been provided I shall conduct a review and form an opinion.   


Fathertime!   

[lordtiberius]

I agree with Muzh.

[JayH]

Not sure what thread the question was asked in--  I replied with info I had at that time-- updated info on the number of Russian troops in Ukraine as follows.

In the area of ​​ATU now wielded to 10 thousand Russian soldiers - General Staff

As of date, the ATO area is 10 thousand Russian soldiers

This was stated by Chief of General Staff of Armed Forces of Ukraine Viktor Muzhenko, reports Espreso.TV referring to TSN.

"Immediately there is the armed forces of the Russian Federation anywhere from 6 th to 8 th, and by some estimates, up to 10 thousand people," - said Muzhenko.

He added that the entire eastern Ukrainian-Russian border holds about 50 thousand. Russian troops.

Earlier in the General Staff reported on the border with Ukraine are over 40 battalion tactical groups of 4 Company tactical group and large group of aviation.

It was also reported that Ukraine has no control over 409.3 kilometers of the state border with Russia.

[Boethius]

From http://www.interpretermag.com/russians-used-humanitarian-convoys-to-send-militants-into-ukraine-russian-organizer-of-this-effort-says/

This week one of the most appalling lies about what Russia has done in Ukraine was revealed as such by a Russian with close links to that country’s security agencies. In an interview, Vladimir Yefimov said he had helped Russian militants get into Ukraine by hiding in one of the humanitarian convoys Moscow sent there.
That Moscow had abused the trust of the international community in this way had long been known by those closely following the situation in Ukraine. Indeed, Moscow’s misuse of such convoys in support of its military goals had even become the subject of Western political cartoons.

Now, thanks to Yefimov, a Russian has confirmed what Russia has done, and the level of detail he provides, the photographs of those involved, and the reproductions of the forms he and his comrades use leave little doubt that Yefimov is now telling at least most of the truth when he said that Russians who volunteered to fight in Ukraine “went under the guise of the Red Cross.”

[Boethius]

Good article on the leaders of the "LNR".


http://ukrainianweek.com/Society/126465

[Boethius]

Another good article on the SBU.


http://ukrainianweek.com/Politics/126456

[Boethius]

From the link above (timely, as it was discussed on the forum today) -

U.W: Is it possible to win this war through negotiations and truces?This is unrealistic. All wars end with truces and some agreements, but the problem lies elsewhere. You have to know who you are talking to. Having a dialogue with puppets like Denis Pushylin (a leader of separatists in Donetsk Oblast, an organizer of pro-Russian rallies in the spring of 2014, self-proclaimed ex-deputy speaker of the Donetsk People’s Republic. In July, Pushylin fled to Moscow and announced his resignation – Ed.) who do not decide anything on their own territory means supporting Moscow’s myth that this is not Russian occupation. But it is exactly that, so Russia should be recognized as the aggressor, Ukraine should turn to the Budapest Memorandum signatories and speak to Russia in that format, not to the Donetsk or Luhanks People’s Republics. As soon as we do all this homework of ours and strengthen our army in the meantime, the world may find itself on the verge of a global conflict but the entire global system of checks and balances will finally start working. If we don’t do our homework, do not fight and keep wearing rose-colored glasses of pacifism, why would someone from Alabama or the UK fight for us?

[lordtiberius]

So if this thing is only going to be won by war, what is stopping NATO?

[AkMike]

UA isn't a member of NATO.

[AC]

From the link above (timely, as it was discussed on the forum today) -

U.W: Is it possible to win this war through negotiations and truces?This is unrealistic. All wars end with truces and some agreements, but the problem lies elsewhere. You have to know who you are talking to. Having a dialogue with puppets like Denis Pushylin (a leader of separatists in Donetsk Oblast, an organizer of pro-Russian rallies in the spring of 2014, self-proclaimed ex-deputy speaker of the Donetsk People’s Republic. In July, Pushylin fled to Moscow and announced his resignation – Ed.) who do not decide anything on their own territory means supporting Moscow’s myth that this is not Russian occupation. But it is exactly that, so Russia should be recognized as the aggressor, Ukraine should turn to the Budapest Memorandum signatories and speak to Russia in that format, not to the Donetsk or Luhanks People’s Republics. As soon as we do all this homework of ours and strengthen our army in the meantime, the world may find itself on the verge of a global conflict but the entire global system of checks and balances will finally start working. If we don’t do our homework, do not fight and keep wearing rose-colored glasses of pacifism, why would someone from Alabama or the UK fight for us?

Great post.  There is only peace through strength.  Very sad that Ukraine was fooled into giving up their means of defending their territory. 

[lordtiberius]

UA isn't a member of NATO.

There is always a reason for not doing the right thing.

[jone]

When Churchill spoke to the US Congress on December 26th, 1941, he told the US people that they should prepare for a very tough 1942.  He also said that 1943 would be better and then, 1944 would be when the tide would turn and Nazi aggression could be defeated. 

Unless Russia does something precipitously, I see a similar situation evolving in Ukraine.  2015 and 2016 will be used to stabilize the Ukrainian economy and provide initial militarization.  Then, as Ukraine gears for war, Russia will slowly back off.  My guess is that ultimately, Eastern Ukraine will be retaken and Krim will be left to its own devices.   

However, the Bear in the room is going to be wounded and there will be some blood on the floor before it is over.

What I think that the Russians have yet to understand is that the Ukrainians view the Russians the same way the Russians viewed the Germans during WWII.   That ambush of the surrendered Ukrainians promised free passage sticks in their memories.

[JayH]

Interesting links( all have some info worth noting) .
The issue of a truce /ceasefire has many aspects that get confused--the key point I 110% agree with above is that Ukraine should ONLY deal with Russia on these issues is important.
           Over a period of time the Ukrainian military has got better and more capable. In saying that--I would still be wary of what it is capable of achieving without substantial help from the west-but - it has been able to get systems in place much better than 6 months ago.
         The terrorist "militants" have ignored the "ceasefire" when and wherever it suits them-- and backed by actual Russian army artillery have continued attacking  .
          Forcing Russia to acknowledge and accept responsibility is politically important for Ukraine-- and the bigger picture resolution.
          The "ceasefire" has bought valuable time for Ukraine to get better organised- but has also allowed supply to the terrorists and Russian army in Ukraine.The decision to negotiate and the compromises was pragmatic and relevant at the time. I wrote earlier that back in August/September I often heard the idea of letting the Donbas go if it meant peace for then rest of Ukraine--by November the mood had changed to-the Donbas is Ukrainian and we will fight  for it.
        I am sure that time will work in Ukraine's favour-the longer they can hold on in a military sense-- the more difficult it will be for Russia to keep telling it's lies to the world-- and most particularly to it's own people.The harder sanctions and embargo's bite-the more pressure on Russia and they will impact even harder on a Russian economy that was heading into recession regardless.
        The other big factor in 2015 will be the gradual build up of western military aid-that will be the nail in the coffin for Russia--and probably Putin himself.

[Doll]

Jay, it was Ukraine that ignored ceasefire- every time!

[JayH]

Jay, it was Ukraine that ignored ceasefire- every time!

And you know this how?

[JayH]

Jay, it was Ukraine that ignored ceasefire- every time!

Doll-- silly denial of facts is just plain ridiculous  and a waste of your time writing and our time reading .
If you simply took the Russian position-- ie-- Crimea has always belonged to Russia and Ukraine needs to do as Russia tells them to and forget any silly notion of Ukrainian independence --then you could be viewed as honest as you would be recognising the reality of the situation.
Instead--you make yourself look and sound as ridiculous as the Kremlin propaganda you keep relying on.The Kremlins aim is to try and create enough confusion to fool the Russian people completely about the truth( eg you Doll regurgitating ) and delay anyone trying to resist and then paint them as the aggressor.
Simply look at the Kremlin pronouncements this year over Ukraine-- with the benefit of hindsight it is very east to see the lie being created eg no Russian troops in Crimea etc

[lordtiberius]

If Crimea is Ukrainian, the why is it only the Tatars are willing to fight?  Why did so many of them celebrate?  It is not as simplistic as many of us would like to believe.  There are bad people who live there who always lived there.  And they have to suffer to change or be removed.

[Boethius]

Jay, it was Ukraine that ignored ceasefire- every time!

Not according to independent observers.

[AC]

And you know this how?

A little midget named Huiiilo told her so.

[JayH]

If Crimea is Ukrainian, the why is it only the Tatars are willing to fight?  Why did so many of them celebrate?  It is not as simplistic as many of us would like to believe.  There are bad people who live there who always lived there.  And they have to suffer to change or be removed.

LT--it is not "only the Tatars are willing to fight". Time will tell you what the real situation is.

It should never be forgotten that it is (& was)highly unlikely that a majority of Crimeans wanted to leave Ukraine.
Even those that may have thought that way-- were referencing the old Ukraine and Yanukovych and co.-- the new directions were never given an opportunity to come into effect.
Another small aside--if you ask people relying on the state for their income " do you want your entitlement raised 3 fold"?-- chances are that  most would say--"yes please"--without thinking of the consequences or potential complications.That was the carrot  put in front of Crimeans and those in eastern Ukraine  . As they have found out to their detriment it was never as simple as that.
Condemning any of these people is simply wrong approach to reconciling them-either now or in the future.

[AC]

This excerpt from the link above shows how Russia directly violated Ukrainian sovereignty and tried to shape the future of Ukraine prior to Maidan and the resignation of Yanukovych.


excerpt
U.W: How strong was Russian influence in the SBU?

Oleksandr Yakymenko himself was an agent of the Russian special services. So were his henchmen. In fact, under Yanukovych, 90% of those surrounding the SBU leadership were residents of Russia. Moreover, FSB (the Russian Federal Security Service – Ed.) officers worked there on a permanent basis, having their individual offices and separate entrances in key departments. During the Maidan, FSB and Vympel (an elite Russian special force unit under the FSB command – Ed.) people stayed at one of the SBU bases. Russian representatives were also in the SBU headquarters. In other words, the SBU was directly reformatted into a section of the Russian security service. The only functions tasked to the Ukrainian structure, other than to represent the FSB, was to protect Yanukovych and his political class and to destroy the opposition. These tasks came directly from the Presidential Administration. The SBU also ensured seamless financial flows for the Family from corruption, customs, contraband and so on.


http://ukrainianweek.com/Politics/126456

[sleepycat]

A little midget named Huiiilo told her so.

Don't you dare to insult Doll's beloved Supreme Leader!
 

[lordtiberius]

Don't you dare to insult Doll's beloved Supreme Leader!
 

YOU WILL GET BANNED.  SHE HAS A DIRECT CONNECTION TO EDWARD.

[lordtiberius]

Not according to independent observers.

Like who the OSCE?